passive set up v active set up

[Andrewjvt]

Your bakeoff is a great idea....just be careful that it doesn't end up a bit chaotic, with so many different components that it's hard to learn anything.

It will need to be very structured and well organized. Also, imo a lot of amps need to properly warm up before they sound right.

You may be right regards too many different set ups but its all fun and you know some may last minute cancel.
Thats why only 6 same songs each i think..
I know a lot of people will love to hear how colins nord amp sounds compared to a hegel or a devialet and theres going to be blood if the avi sounds better than all of them. All just personal opinions and makes the forums interesting.

Edit almost forgot and what about Lindsayt vintage kit to compare also?

 

[Andrewjvt]

You like your bass, don't you 🙂 Nice tracks, sure, but for comparison? 

and here's the problem.. those are the tracks I played randomly last time to Andrew and he loved it[ and asked if I can simply play same tracks I played last time, hence my selcetion] and he made positive comments.. it's often mentioned [ here as well] the best track are the ones you like.. and we're not going to test anything, we are going to compare set ups and I think almost any music can show differences between them.. we can go thru usual audiophile dire straits etc and I don't mid if any of participants bring and play dire straits.. let's just play what we like.. 

Let me just say the songs Darius played at the end blew my system up totaly.

The power and clarity was awesome like really good.

 

[Ashley James]

I use some Reuben Gonzales tracks that were produced by Ry Cooder because there are all sorts of percussive sounds scatter around the sound field and an excellent representation of spatial imagery with good depth. Good piano sound too.

For harsh, nasal Country/Folk music (to light up nasties in the crossover region) try Freakwater.

Kathleen Battle has a lovely, pure voice and much more of a range than popular music singers. Try some Mozart.

 

[lpv]

to compare amps we would probably play them all thru one set of speakers otherwise we still comparing set ups.. jesus, good at least I have amps attached to drivers so no fiddle

 

[CnoEvil]

You may be right regards too many different set ups but its all fun and you know some may last minute cancel. Thats why only 6 same songs each i think.. I know a lot of people will love to hear how colins nord amp sounds compared to a hegel or a devialet and theres going to be blood if the avi sounds better than all of them. All just personal opinions and makes the forums interesting.

Edit almost forgot and what about Lindsayt vintage kit to compare also?

I suppose it depends on what you want to achieve.....if it's to have a great time and experience a big variety of kit, almost like a hifi show, that's fine....but I would be careful about drawing definitive conclusions.

 

[Morgunner]

I know the subject of sample tracks could spark another lengthy discussion but would suggest Alison Krauss for vocals; as well as a great voice, her recordings are generally excellent.

Indeed, the Union Station Live double of 2002 is a pearl.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Check out all the mentioned tracks from everyone tonight thanks.

Yes and i think to compare amps we could just stick to my atcs to keep it simple

Apart from Lindsayt as it will be a totaly different set up and might not work (with my speakers) so need to be fair.

 

[Ashley James]

Remember that speaker drivers can be damaged by continuous power from a sine wave, so don't play too loud of for too long on any of your speakers.

Most music, at the listening level, is less than a Watt, there are often huge peaks and the speakers can handle them, just not sine waves or continuous very high levels of compressed music.

 

[steve_1979]

Mozart - Die Zauberflöte (by Otto Klemperer)

Good quality, well recorded classical is always a good test for a hifi system. This version of The Magic Flute is one the greatest.

https://open.spotify.com/track/0tXg3owySimwQ2pFKTqzjB

Eric Bibb - I Heard the Angels Singing

Simple, well recorded acoustic guitar music. A good test of a speakers clarity and naturalness.

https://open.spotify.com/track/4dHulx13sbjrhsmkVXRiCh

Michael Jackson - Billie Jean

Some well recorded pop music.

https://open.spotify.com/track/7J1uxwnxfQLu4APicE5Rnj

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Parallel Universe

One of the most heavily compressed and clipped songs ever made. It's a good test to see how well speakers can cope with rough sounding music.

https://open.spotify.com/track/1Se0r96r0gnqg67kJPmESc

And the most importantally test of all... A sine wave sweep!

This is one of the best tests available to check for frequency specific distortions or crossover issues. A sweep will highlight these issues much more clearly than music will which is why this test is used by speaker designers when they're designing the speakers. I cannot understate how useful this is! If you only use one track from my list please make it this one and focus on any irregularities as the sweep passes the speakers crossover frequencies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNf9nzvnd1k

 

[Electro]

kelela - the high DR probably 4 to 7

Ha! Sneaky! ;-) While you're at it, why not spotify:track:5IvAHasFHbau4hUdpjRacB

Is Electronica your general listening material?

the spotify you've linked it's just a pain to listen too.. new electronic is one of the genres I regulary check.. you wouldn't believe how different material I have on my drive atm

Here is some electronica you might be interested in playing .

Zola Blood - Grace . https://open.spotify.com/track/3sHvCSUE2dVD5ZMeKxAMaV

Tears and Marble - Ashes. https://open.spotify.com/track/2WFi2RCBqkzoYzBQ7VUHBa

SOHN - Tremors. https://open.spotify.com/track/1UjtgkSgP7ptxSHG4kzc0G

Active Child - Never far Away. https://open.spotify.com/track/2KCG0R6UqYm4N0stvX8kEb

Venetian Snares - Szerencsetlen. https://open.spotify.com/track/1fRN2M7M2TEuSUjIJWWT4x

Submotion Orchestra - Thousand yard stare. https://open.spotify.com/track/2Q8gTdwAaIpmJ7gCqxXUNS

Blue Hawaii - Katie. https://open.spotify.com/track/0ky3cyO3xTacscPY4grzK3

Artic Lake - For us. https://open.spotify.com/track/0UA6qu0q7LKR575c8nAkXP

Shigeto - Huron river drive - https://open.spotify.com/track/6M6lpOqBSZ05z0MnzwqbtO

Beacon - Running out . - https://open.spotify.com/track/4gPdOMfkq334yxzMGrP4Uu

I have many more. *smile*

 

[lpv]

we have limit of only 2 songs; I'll stick with James Blake & Kelela only because Andrew loved these last time and I doubt anybody ( maybe wrong) will bring stuff like that... we need some classical and I have hugh selection but limit is limit.

2 songs from each x 5 of us = around 30min x 5 set ups = 2.5 hrs if choose to play full songs.

 

[steve_1979]

However, why are you not letting anyone see DM10 frequency-response graphs

There's a graph for the DM10 bass driver (with no crossover or tweeter) on the AVI website.

http://www.avihifi.com/dm10-driver-measurements.html

Note that the response is smooth right up to 4kHz which is really exceptional performance for a 6.5" driver. The DM10 crossover at 2kHz is very steep so you never get to hear the cone break up like you do with other 6.5" drivers. This is what makes the DM10s different to all other 6.5" speakers and it's this along with a few other things which allows them sound so smooth and clear.

 

[spiny norman]

Note that the response is smooth right up to 4kHz which is really exceptional performance for a 6.5" driver. The DM10 crossover at 2kHz is very steep so you never get to hear the cone break up like you do with other 6.5" drivers. This is what makes the DM10s different to all other 6.5" speakers and it's this along with a few other things which allows them sound so smooth and clear.

That's uncanny. Now do your Jeremy Corbyn: I love that one!

 

[steve_1979]

Note that the response is smooth right up to 4kHz which is really exceptional performance for a 6.5" driver. The DM10 crossover at 2kHz is very steep so you never get to hear the cone break up like you do with other 6.5" drivers. This is what makes the DM10s different to all other 6.5" speakers and it's this along with a few other things which allows them sound so smooth and clear.

That's uncanny. Now do your Jeremy Corbyn: I love that one!

If readers don't know what a typical 6.5" mid/bass driver response graph looks like it's helpful to put it into context for them and explain the significance of what they're looking at.

 

[spiny norman]

If readers don't know what a typical 6.5" mid/bass driver response graph looks like it's helpful to put it into context for them and explain the significance of what they're looking at.

Yes, it was very impressive. Or impressionistic. Or something like that.

 

[steve_1979]

If readers don't know what a typical 6.5" mid/bass driver response graph looks like it's helpful to put it into context for them and explain the significance of what they're looking at.

Yes, it was very impressive. Or impressionistic. Or something like that.

Sorry to disappoint but I refuse to sink to your level so I answered your trolling comment with a sensible reply. 🙂

 

[spiny norman]

Sorry to disappoint but I refuse to sink to your level so I answered your trolling comment with a sensible reply. 🙂

Not at all disappointed: you're the gift that keeps on giving. But wow, you've even captured that innate sense of superiority. Do you practice in front of a mirror? ;-)

 

[hg]

There's a graph for the DM10 bass driver (with no crossover or tweeter) on the AVI website.

http://www.avihifi.com/dm10-driver-measurements.html

Note that the response is smooth right up to 4kHz which is really exceptional performance for a 6.5" driver. The DM10 crossover at 2kHz is very steep so you never get to hear the cone break up like you do with other 6.5" drivers. This is what makes the DM10s different to all other 6.5" speakers and it's this along with a few other things which allows them sound so smooth and clear.

The SB drivers are good value with good motors but there is nothing unique about them. The reason crossover slopes as high as 8th order are not conventionally used between 6.5" and 1" drivers on a flat baffle is because it makes the steep change in directivity with a 4th order slope even worse. Most of the energy waggling our ear drums when listening at home in a room comes from reflected sound and so the almost step change in the frequency response of the reflected sound at 2kHz significantly colours the perceived sound by emphasizing the higher frequencies. Perhaps this sounds good as a sound effect but it is not high fidelity.

If we want high fidelity then we need to avoid sharp changes in directivity and to minimise the resonant regions within the driver's passband. This is straightforward to achieve by using a smaller midrange driver and a larger woofer driver instead of a single midwoofer driver. Waveguides can also help shape the directivity of the smaller driver to match that of the larger driver.

 

[Ashley James]

Three points.

1. Manufacturers have been publishing FR plots since measuring equipment was available after the war. All show very flat responses, but those old speakers sound pretty poor compared to today's mass market ones. This tells those of us with an IQ that they don't mean much 😉

2. Probably for the above reason practically no one publishes them these days

3. FR Measurements vary enormously depending on how they're made and what they're made with, so they're only any use to the chap who made them.

As Steve explained, our bass drivers are flat to an octave above our crossover, so require no EQ. Also the driver crossover combination is as near phase perfect as is possible. This is why they have a far better stereo image than ordinary speakers. This is something you can hear easily.

The fact is that we've been selling as many of our speakers as we can make since 2006, or as long as a small group of experts, most not having heard them, have been attacking us and insulting me. Ten years despite that they're obviously successful and much loved by their owners. Sad 🙁

What makes it even more tiresome is that we have a track record of making some of the best speakers you can buy at affordable prices. For nine years our Neutrons won awards almost every year and Gramophone, Hi Fi Choice and WHF had them as the best for under a grand.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi When are you back from holiday?

Need to talk massive subs to mess up the soundstage and phase timing for the next test.

I'm back on the 1st Sept 🙂

 

[Ashley James]

There's a graph for the DM10 bass driver (with no crossover or tweeter) on the AVI website.

http://www.avihifi.com/dm10-driver-measurements.html

Note that the response is smooth right up to 4kHz which is really exceptional performance for a 6.5" driver. The DM10 crossover at 2kHz is very steep so you never get to hear the cone break up like you do with other 6.5" drivers. This is what makes the DM10s different to all other 6.5" speakers and it's this along with a few other things which allows them sound so smooth and clear.

The SB drivers are good value with good motors but there is nothing unique about them. The reason crossover slopes as high as 8th order are not conventionally used between 6.5" and 1" drivers on a flat baffle is because it makes the steep change in directivity with a 4th order slope even worse. Most of the energy waggling our ear drums when listening at home in a room comes from reflected sound and so the almost step change in the frequency response of the reflected sound at 2kHz significantly colours the perceived sound by emphasizing the higher frequencies. Perhaps this sounds good as a sound effect but it is not high fidelity.

If we want high fidelity then we need to avoid sharp changes in directivity and to minimise the resonant regions within the driver's passband. This is straightforward to achieve by using a smaller midrange driver and a larger woofer driver instead of a single midwoofer driver. Waveguides can also help shape the directivity of the smaller driver to match that of the larger driver.

Nice of you to take time off insulting me elsewhere to drop in here and have another go.

SB drivers are very high end. They have a substantial R&D dept in Surabaya and a smaller one employing ex Scanspeak engineers in Denmark, so they'd be amongst the best there is and cutting edge

You should read the article posted on this thread about the company, it's interesting.

That said we don't use standard high end OEM SB drivers but very special ones designed for us alone. Only the chassis is the same and that was designed by an ex Scanspeak engineer about two years ago.

We only us 4th order filters on the DM5 and 8th order on the DM10. 4ths are just audible, 8ths not at all.

While SB's owners were visiting us we demonstrated 2nd, 4th and 8th order filters to them while music and test sounds were playing through the speakers, so any of what you're describing would have been audible if it existed. In fact dispersion is obviously far better than anything you'll have heard as is the image depth and width

.

This shows a DSP program in use that enables us to change the crossover while the speakers are playing and hear the result. We can do a proper AB comparison.

You ought to have a listen to our speakers if you're genuinely interested.

 

[lindsayt]

However, why are you not letting anyone see DM10 frequency-response graphs

There's a graph for the DM10 bass driver (with no crossover or tweeter) on the AVI website.

http://www.avihifi.com/dm10-driver-measurements.html

Note that the response is smooth right up to 4kHz which is really exceptional performance for a 6.5" driver. The DM10 crossover at 2kHz is very steep so you never get to hear the cone break up like you do with other 6.5" drivers. This is what makes the DM10s different to all other 6.5" speakers and it's this along with a few other things which allows them sound so smooth and clear.

Here's that AVI frequency response graph:

And here's a frequency response chart for (all drivers and ports on) the Kef Blade 2's:

Both speakers use 6.5" drivers.

Please note the different horizontal and vertical scales for each graph. Plus the smoothing may well be different too.

 

[thewinelake.]

This is nice, might be a useful test? Purcell's Trumpet Tune

https://open.spotify.com/track/5Gd7VBYea1kGvlLEDNQC82

and in a similar vein of bonkers but real bass https://open.spotify.com/track/4ZOjpwSvUFEdBHRgbZDuub

 

[Ashley James]

Ours is a lab measurement made as part of the design process and done on an IEC baffle in an anechoic chamber. It shows the effect of the baffle and has maximum resolution to show all faults over which there had been disagreement.

It cannot really be compared with a system measurement without the same provenance.

You can check out OEM drive unit manufacturers websites to get an idea of why ours is special.

 

[hg]

Nice of you to take time off insulting me elsewhere to drop in here and have another go.

You are insulted by a factual post describing why 8th order filters are not conventionally used for 6.5" and 1" drivers on a flat baffle?

We only us 4th order filters on the DM5 and 8th order on the DM10. 4ths are just audible, 8ths not at all.

I don't understand this statement. What is just audible with 4ths and not at all with 8ths?

While SB's owners were visiting us we demonstrated 2nd, 4th and 8th order filters to them while music and test sounds were playing through the speakers, so any of what you're describing would have been audible if it existed.

In fact dispersion is obviously far better than anything you'll have heard as is the image depth and width.

The dispersion of all 6.5" midwoofers crossed to 1" tweeters on a flat baffle is relatively poor with a conventional crossover frequency around 2-3 kHz because the midwoofer is beaming and the tweeter is radiating widely. The best one can do to smooth the dispersion is to use a low order crossover but that is almost certain to lead to other issues.

Yes this exists, yes it is audible and it is why high fidelty speakers have relatively smooth dispersion. The choice of beam width and the degree to narrow the beam width at high frequencies is debatable to some extent but the smoothness isn't really unless one is seeking possibly attractive sound effects.

When you were comparing 2nd, 4th and 8th slopes did you notch out the resonances above the passband, raise the crossover frequency for the lower slopes, and optimise for the slope or did you keep everything fixed and change just the slope?