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New Star Wars Movie is Poor - spoilers thread! Be aware of the dog. Woof.

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The_Lhc

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gel said:
The_Lhc said:
gel said:
What happened to Jedi training?  These new kids just pick up light sabers and know how to work them?  Shouldn't be called episode 7 more like new Star Wars with no training. ?
Oh come off it gel, you don't need Jedi training in order to find an on button! And Finn didn't exactly cover himself in glory, Ren (an apprentice himself as mentioned) defeated him fairly easily.

Rey's a different matter, Ren himself stated she was far more powerful than he is.
Nope it doesn't make sense.  The Jedi were trained from young by Yoda.  
Don't be daft, nobody was leaping around like the Jedi in the prequels, any fool can wave a sword around which is all Finn was doing. If he'd been facing a fully trained Sith Lord he'd have been dead a lot more quickly, Ren's not that powerful, certainly not in the Vader league (notice he can't apparently perform a force choke ) and not, apparently anywhere near Rey. Looking at the young Anakin's flying skills (and the same can be applied to Luke), very strong force users appear to have a level of natural ability that doesn't require training, although they need training to reach their full potential.

My biggest gripe was Captain Phasma, beyond the dreadful name she was built up beforehand as some fearsome improved version of a stormtrooper and yet when it came down to it she was completely useless, actually bringing the shields down before being tossed in the garbage and allowing the entire world to be destroyed, rather than allowing herself to be sacrificed for the greater good of the First Order. Really pathetic, not what I expected at all.
 

chebby

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The_Lhc said:
Well yes, obviously it's a plot device but it should have some internal logic to it. It just doesn't make any sense.
That's kind of the point with a MacGuffin.

It's a purposefully empty term, coined to denote something devoid of meaning and logic beyond its capacity to drive a narrative.

Cinema is littered with MacGuffins. Take it up with Hitchcock. *smile*
The Maltese MacGuffin?
 

strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
That implies it was deliberately conceived as nonsense, I find that a little hard to believe.
It implies this was the best thing the filmmakers could come up with to set the narrative in motion.

I'm explaining, man, not justifying.
 

chebby

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chebby said:
The Maltese MacGuffin?
Yeah, the statue's a MacGuffin.

Noir's full of inexplicable plot devices and machinations. It's a genre feature.
I shall look out for them in our Noir box (actually its now two Noir Boxes). 'Pickup On South Street' is easy. (Microfilm.)

Oh dear, I shall have to watch them all again to find those MacGuffins. Pity :) (Has to be done.)
 

The_Lhc

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And another thing, I really missed Vader's theme. Ten didn't appear to have any musical theme associated with him at all, perhaps that's the last part of his dark side training, picking his entrance music...

The music in general seemed to pass me by, that's odd for a Star Wars film...
 

strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
The music in general seemed to pass me by, that's odd for a Star Wars film...
The music felt pretty generic. Rey's assorted themes were OK.

This is one area where the prequels arguably win out. The scores at least felt iconic, if little else did.
 

The_Lhc

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strapped for cash said:
The_Lhc said:
The music in general seemed to pass me by, that's odd for a Star Wars film...
The music felt pretty generic. Rey's assorted themes were OK.
I couldn't honestly say I noticed them.

This is one area where the prequels arguably win out. The scores at least felt iconic, if little else did.
Thinking about it, did this film have all the lovely side-wipes and directorial tricks that Lucas liked so much?
 

strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
I couldn't honestly say I noticed them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVw_oV-jLXw

The_Lhc said:
Thinking about it, did this film have all the lovely side-wipes and directorial tricks that Lucas liked so much?
There were definitely wipes.

I'm sure other aesthetic tropes were appropriated from the original trilogy. If/when I see the film again I'll pay greater attention to points of style.
 

carter

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Found this film easy enough to follow,

ren was injured in the final battle,he had been hit with chewies crossbow blaster that the film had gone out of its way on a couple of occasions to show it was more of a missile launcher than a blaster Han had borrowed it to blast troopers flying into the air,Evan quoting "I love this thing" or words to that effect.

troops were not just dropping to the ground but being thrown into the air when hit....Evan as a force trained sith (if that's what there still known as)it would have slowed him down,he Evan kept thumping and holding the wound during the battle with blood dripping from it.

& rey was not that much like Luke as far as combat was concerned she was very skilled with a staff earlier in the film taking on and defeating a gang of "creatures"? Who were after bb8 she also was a much tuffer charecter living alone in the desert,Luke was just a farm boy so it's no surprise she could take on the injured ren.

i also got the impression she was force trained as a small chiled,since she had the sabre call her from the basement of the bar she began to get flash back from her childhood & as the film went on she would remember little bits of her training she also said to Finn after one such "awakening" that she didn't no how she did it.....my guess is that she is Luke's daughter and he had trained her from young.

as far as r2 was concerned I thought he had shut him self down in an attempt to search his system for his masters information and by going into sleep mode he, could use all his system to search for it & once he had found the info he rebooted.

thing I think we need to remember is this is the first of 3 & they are not gonna show all there hand on the first one I'm sure there will be many plot twists to come......also it's a film about light sabre wielding magical folk who live on lands surrounded by robots & little bears a giant slugs.....who cares if it makes complete sense:)
 

strapped for cash

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carter said:
it's a film about light sabre wielding magical folk who live on lands surrounded by robots & little bears a giant slugs.....who cares if it makes complete sense:)
Fans care. They really care. And with fantasy texts such as Star Wars, fans are legion.

Fans invest in their chosen texts, and their storyworlds and mythologies, with religious fervour. They absorb their every detail. They fall under their spell.

When this spell is broken fans vent their frustration, usually at filmmakers with inferior knowledge of text and canon, or whose lack of attention to detail throws up narrative or thematic inconsistencies.

It's easy to dismiss fans, especially when comic book guy stereotypes abound. But there's a joy and collaborative spirit to fan practices. Passionate investment in texts can help make life tolerable, while providing a sense of community and belonging. Fandom can be a positive force!
 

The_Lhc

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More to the point though, it's a *film*, first and foremost, it needs to follow the rules of what makes films work, chiefly, make some semblance of sense. The map is the primary plot device, it's what drives the entire film, and it's bollocks. You're living in a galaxy wide civilization, traversing the galaxy from one side to the other at will and yet nobody has a complete map of that galaxy? How the hell does anyone navigate?

It's just daft.
 

carter

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Wow,I'm fortunate I can sit down and enjoy a movie & not worry if all the minor details completely make sense

the most important things in a movie like this that is aimed at a wide range of ages is the universe,comedy,action,special effects & the actors,& all these things I would say had been done well

i think any film made can have holes picked in it to how things could have been done to make life easier & if you look at it that way how do you enjoy any film

however I probably struggle with more intelligent movies that spend more time worrying about being realistic in the meantime nothing happens on screen.:-(
 

The_Lhc

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It's not a minor detail though is it? It's the main plot point of the film. The map is the sole reason they spend over two hours running around the galaxy. It is effectively the entire point of the film. And it's stoopid.
 

strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
You're living in a galaxy wide civilization, traversing the galaxy from one side to the other at will and yet nobody has a complete map of that galaxy? How the hell does anyone navigate?

It's just daft.
I'm sure other maps are available.

This one revealed Luke's location, which distinguishes it from other available maps.

It's an incomplete treasure map, of sorts, or the only map containing "X marks the spot" information. Many pirate and quest narratives are similarly set in motion.

I'm not suggesting the "Luke is here" map is a masterstroke, but an entire fantasy galaxy's ability to navigate doesn't rest on this map's existence.
 

The_Lhc

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strapped for cash said:
The_Lhc said:
You're living in a galaxy wide civilization, traversing the galaxy from one side to the other at will and yet nobody has a complete map of that galaxy? How the hell does anyone navigate?

It's just daft.
I'm sure other maps are available.
Yes, exactly my point, you've got a map of the galaxy with a big hole in it (actually only appears when R2 wakes up) and you can't work out what's in there because you have no other maps to compare it to?

Or looking at it from the other perspective, you have a map showing a section of the galaxy which nobody "recognizes" and yet you don't have the computing power available to do a pattern matching comparison with your existing maps? We could do that now!

This one revealed Luke's location, which distinguishes it from other available maps.

It's an incomplete treasure map, of sorts, or the only map containing "X marks the spot" information. Many pirate and quest narratives are similarly set in motion.
Yes but those aren't set in a technologically advanced civilization, that "fragment" was an appreciable chunk of the galaxy, not a single star system or something like that that could be overlooked.

I'm not suggesting the "Luke is here" map is a masterstroke, but an entire fantasy galaxy's ability to navigate doesn't rest on this map's existence. ?

 
You'd hope not but they should be able to figure out where that area was just by overlaying it on existing maps until the find a match.
 

chebby

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For anyone unfamiliar with the term and its origins:

http://borgus.com/hitch/macguffins.htm

The MoC Pickup on South Street BD is by all accounts very well mastered.

Out of interest, what's in your noir box sets?
I keep all my DVDs and BDs in Rymans storage boxes, so I have about two of these full of noir discs (not box sets as we normally understand the term).

I am presently in the local Waterstones/Costa relaxing, listening to 'Our Game' by John Le Carre, drinking coffee, typing this and enjoying the despairing faces of people who haven't finished all their shopping two days ago :) So, if I remember, i'll refresh my memory of the contents of those boxes later this afternoon.
 

strapped for cash

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I'm not necessarily arguing with anything you point out, though the Resistance would need to access the incomplete map BB8 was carrying to begin to overlay this with existing records.

As a narrative device the map is what it is. It's not the most egregious of MacGuffins, but it's a far from perfect plot driving mechanism.

I think most fans were happy there was no mention of midichlorians, flying R2 units, dialogue howlers, etc...

That'll do as a start.
 

Paul.

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The missing map section was an in app purchase and R2 was being stingy.

I wonder if it's some unexplored bad lands, or mayby a previously unmappable region as within it parsecs are a unit of time not distance.
 

strapped for cash

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Looking ahead rather than picking at Episode VII -- and I've done my fair share of picking -- I like the Snoke is Darth Plagueis theory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05dT34hGRdg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_zb3HWTwAY

Snoke could be the ultimate Star Wars villain, if they get this right, with a narrative arc preceding and spanning the (eventual) nine filmed episodes.

On reflection, this is perhaps the best of Williams' Episode VII score. It's simple yet foreboding, while subtly recalling one of the Star Wars texts. (The above-linked scene was arguably the prequels' best moment.)

With all the talk of overt referentiality and fan appeasement, it's worth noting that more nuanced arcs and references may offer clues to how the new films will develop.
 

The_Lhc

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Ok, I have more information, which has supposedly come from jj Abrams himself. The map in question and the waypoints along it are apparently locations of old Jedi temples that Luke was investigating. R2 had the bulk of the map in his data banks from the time he accessed the imperial system aboard the death star but he hadn't got all of it. The remainder was what was given to max von sydow by Luke and thence to Poe and BB8. So it's the rest of the waypoints that they actually needed rather than the section of map itself (that was far from clear though). R2 was not woken up by Luke, he responded to the presence of BB8 who told him he had the rest of the map, he just took a while to wake up as he's getting on a bit now. So that makes a lot more sense now.

There's something odd about Poe though, how did he make it back from the crash-landing so easily to the resistance base? And why did he leave bb8 on jakku when he knew he was crucial to the recovery of the map? Surely if he escaped the crash he'd try to recover bb8? I don't think he survived at all, I think the second time we see him at the base that's a different Poe, a clone perhaps. They're still around, General Hux makes an off hand remark about using the first order's clones instead of stormtroopers and Poe has a touch of the Jango's about him if you ask me.
 

strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
Ok, I have more information, which has supposedly come from jj Abrams himself. The map in question and the waypoints along it are apparently locations of old Jedi temples that Luke was investigating. R2 had the bulk of the map in his data banks from the time he accessed the imperial system aboard the death star but he hadn't got all of it. The remainder was what was given to max von sydow by Luke and thence to Poe and BB8. So it's the rest of the waypoints that they actually needed rather than the section of map itself (that was far from clear though). R2 was not woken up by Luke, he responded to the presence of BB8 who told him he had the rest of the map, he just took a while to wake up as he's getting on a bit now. So that makes a lot more sense now.

There's something odd about Poe though, how did he make it back from the crash-landing so easily to the resistance base? And why did he leave bb8 on jakku when he knew he was crucial to the recovery of the map? Surely if he escaped the crash he'd try to recover bb8? I don't think he survived at all, I think the second time we see him at the base that's a different Poe, a clone perhaps. They're still around, General Hux makes an off hand remark about using the first order's clones instead of stormtroopers and Poe has a touch of the Jango's about him if you ask me.
Cheers for that. Can you link to the source?

If Abrams confirmed the above then he's perhaps "retconning," since as you say, little of this was stated in the film, if I correctly recall.

In any case, I'm content to go along with it all, at least for now.
 

The_Lhc

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The only problem with the plagueis theory is that he doesn't feature in any of the previous films, so if that's all people have seen they aren't going to have the faintest idea who he is (i haven't, beyond a vague recollection of something I read a while ago), besides, he's a Sith, so if he's been around all this time it would tend to contradict Yoda's assertion regarding the Sith: always two there are, master and an apprentice. That's the Emperor and Vader for the most part, if plagueis had been hanging around in the background that would make three. I could well believe he may be a force ghost, I think he was Palpatine's master and he claimed his master had found a way to cheat death but had never taught it to Palpatine (which I think is why he killed him?). That would fit in with Andy Serkis' comments that Snoke has no fixed base and isn't a character that can be done with a physical effect in camera. His ghost status would also be well hidden by the hologram, if indeed that is even a hologram...
 

The_Lhc

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strapped for cash said:
The_Lhc said:
Ok, I have more information, which has supposedly come from jj Abrams himself. The map in question and the waypoints along it are apparently locations of old Jedi temples that Luke was investigating. R2 had the bulk of the map in his data banks from the time he accessed the imperial system aboard the death star but he hadn't got all of it. The remainder was what was given to max von sydow by Luke and thence to Poe and BB8. So it's the rest of the waypoints that they actually needed rather than the section of map itself (that was far from clear though). R2 was not woken up by Luke, he responded to the presence of BB8 who told him he had the rest of the map, he just took a while to wake up as he's getting on a bit now. So that makes a lot more sense now.

There's something odd about Poe though, how did he make it back from the crash-landing so easily to the resistance base? And why did he leave bb8 on jakku when he knew he was crucial to the recovery of the map? Surely if he escaped the crash he'd try to recover bb8? I don't think he survived at all, I think the second time we see him at the base that's a different Poe, a clone perhaps. They're still around, General Hux makes an off hand remark about using the first order's clones instead of stormtroopers and Poe has a touch of the Jango's about him if you ask me.
Cheers for that. Can you link to the source?

If Abrams confirmed the above then he's perhaps "retconning," since as you say, little of this was stated in the film, if I correctly recall.

In any case, I'm content to go along with it all, at least for now.
I don't know where the original quote from Abrams is from but I got it from io9.gizmodo.com but this Stoopid phone won't let me paste the link here!

I also extrapolated fairly wildly...
 

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