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New Star Wars Movie is Poor - spoilers thread! Be aware of the dog. Woof.

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strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
if he's been around all this time it would tend to contradict Yoda's assertion regarding the Sith: always two there are, master and an apprentice. That's the Emperor and Vader for the most part, if plagueis had been hanging around in the background that would make three.
Plagueis' absence as a living character in the previous six films presents an interesting conundrum.

I'm reaching a little here, but go with me...

From what little we know of Plagueis, he was so powerful with the force that he could cheat death.

I'm oddly reminded of The Exorcist III, in which the Gemini Killer (who was possessed, accounting for his murderous behaviour) is reanimated years after his body was buried.

The possessing demon willed the host's body back to life; but this took decades. This was a kind of agonisingly hard won, unholy resurrection.

After Palpatine "murdered" him, Plagueis may have slowly reanimated, initially through residual force consciousness, incrementally but inexorably gaining strength.

This would mean Plagueis remained omnipresent through the previous six films, if never intervening as an animated Sith presence, thereby preserving the "rule of two."

Even the name Plagueis suggests a nagging pestilence that might be fought off, but can mutate and resurface.

Since the Star Wars franchise is inherently silly, and we accept the presence of ghosts and mystical powers and creatures, I quite like this idea.

This would make Snoke a zombie Sith Lord, and the most powerful exponent of dark side powers in the entire Star Wars canon.

The name "Snoke" lacks the menace of Darth Plagueis, but it works as a cover, where an outwardly ineffectual, unthreatening persona is a front for genuine malevolence. (Think of Snoke as Star Wars' take on BoJo.)

I guess Snoke could be a ghost, but then why appear as a hologram?
 

strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
I don't know where the original quote from Abrams is from but I got it from io9.gizmodo.com but this Stoopid phone won't let me paste the link here!

I also extrapolated fairly wildly...
Ta.

Talking of wild extrapolation, see my response above. *smile*

Oh, and since I'm comparing orchestral cues and leitmotifs, Rey's theme is composed in the same key as the music accompanying Luke's iconic twin sunset moment (with at times similar phrasing).

Rey's theme even segues into Luke's immediately before the Episode VII end credits begin.
 

The_Lhc

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strapped for cash said:
The_Lhc said:
if he's been around all this time it would tend to contradict Yoda's assertion regarding the Sith: always two there are, master and an apprentice. That's the Emperor and Vader for the most part, if plagueis had been hanging around in the background that would make three.
Plagueis' absence as a living character in the previous six films presents an interesting conundrum.

I'm reaching a little here, but go with me...

From what little we know of Plagueis, he was so powerful with the force that he could cheat death. 
Yes but the inference I got from every mention of that I'm the prequels and original films was that meant becoming a force ghost, no need for resurrection in a physical form, hence not requiring a physical base, he can appear anywhere.

This would mean Plagueis remained omnipresent through the previous six films, if never intervening as an animated Sith presence, thereby preserving the "rule of two."
Well that's kind of the problem with that, he's not been mentioned and he's made no impact in any of the previous films, so it doesn't really work that he's the character spanning all the films.

The only characters that could span every film are Yoda, Obi-Wan and Palpatine himself, as force ghosts, although I don't believe Palpatine ever learned to become a ghost.

I guess Snoke could be a ghost, but then why appear as a hologram? 
To hide the fact that he has no corporeal body. Or perhaps it's not actually a hologram, that is his ghost and we're just assuming it's a hologram.
 

strapped for cash

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The_Lhc said:
Yes but the inference I got from every mention of that I'm the prequels and original films was that meant becoming a force ghost, no need for resurrection in a physical form, hence not requiring a physical base, he can appear anywhere.
I'm pretty sure that Plagueis is only discussed once in all of the previous Star Wars films, during the exchange between Palpatine and Anakin I linked to. I'm not sure about the extended universe and non canon narratives, though.

Plagueis wasn't discussed as a ghost, but as a Sith Lord who "could influence the midichlorians to create life," and "prevent those he loved from dying."

We also learned that the ability to cheat death cannot be learned from a Jedi, and that "the dark side of the force can be a pathway to abilities that many consider unnatural."

In other words, Plagueis is not like Ben, or Yoda, or even ultimately Anakin. As you say, these are the only characters who appear as ghosts.

The_Lhc said:
Well that's kind of the problem with that, he's not been mentioned and he's made no impact in any of the previous films, so it doesn't really work that he's the character spanning all the films.
I don't think this is a problem.

The fact that Plagueis had no influence on the earlier films is immaterial if he was inanimate, and slowly urging himself back from death.

He wouldn't have been a character in the previous films, but lurking in the background, with everyone, including the audience, left unaware.

The_Lhc said:
To hide the fact that he has no corporeal body. Or perhaps it's not actually a hologram, that is his ghost and we're just assuming it's a hologram.
That's possible, I guess.

I thought he looked a great deal like a hologram, with scan lines, but I kind of missed this scene, as I nipped out to the gents and only caught the last few seconds as I walked back in.
 

Alantiggger

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In the book it tells of the old temples, Luke etc, some need it spelled out to em eh ? lol

Anyway, it seems to some that there is musical evidence to support/suggest that perhaps Snoke is Plagueis and Palpatine too enters into this thinking ? You never know, might be ?
 

The_Lhc

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Alantiggger said:
In the book it tells of the old temples, Luke  etc, some need it spelled out to em eh ? lol
What book? Doesn't help the majority that haven't read any of the books.
 

strapped for cash

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Returning to the Snoke = Plagueis discussion, this video directly compares the ROTS scene and Snoke theme, including sheet music revealing the two scores are virtually identical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd_8-NCN5CU

It's hard to believe that Williams couldn't be bothered to score a new character and simply ported over older music hoping nobody would notice, especially since other leitmotifs are carried over from the earlier films.
 

The_Lhc

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strapped for cash said:
Returning to the Snoke = Plagueis discussion, this video directly compares the ROTS scene and Snoke theme, including sheet music revealing the two scores are virtually identical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd_8-NCN5CU

It's hard to believe that Williams couldn't be bothered to score a new character and simply ported over older music hoping nobody would notice, especially since other leitmotifs are carried over from the earlier films.
Interesting point, although it does suppose that Williams has actually been given that information. I don't have any idea how much background info composers are given when they're putting the soundtrack together.
 

Thompsonuxb

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Nowt like a star wars film to bring the geek out of the best of us.

I took my 12yr old on Saturday and now every living second I'm having to explain the whole saga to him.

Considering I was younger than him when the first film came out that's pretty impressive when you think about it.

Anyhoo, carry on..... :)
 

Alantiggger

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see here : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Star-Wars-Plagueis-James-Luceno/dp/0099542641

If you click on the book over on the left hand side of the page where it says 'look inside', you will be able to see the time-lines and all of the books.
 

Rupert

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My daughter and her partner took me to see this on Christmas Eve, partly because partner is a Star Wars junkie and partly because daughter wanted Dad to lose his 3D virginity.

The film was fun as these things go, but considering I'd only ever seen the first film in 1977 (the year before daughter was born), the numerous references to subsequent storylines in the franchise were lost on me.

As for the 3D experience ... well, it was just that, an experience - which I shan't bother to repeat. The free glasses were fine and, once I'd managed to hook them over my own specs without the whole lot slipping forward, rendered the images in 3D as promised. However, there were some scenes where only the subject matter closest to the viewer was in focus, while everything else was out. I occasionally looked over the top of the glasses to see what the 3D image looked like without them and I was quite surprised to discover that there was a fairly significant loss of overall brightness when the glasses were being worn. There is a slight tint to the lenses, so perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised by this.

Anyway, as far as 3D goes, the current method does a pretty good job (I'd only ever done the red/green cardboard frames things previously), but I shan't bother to seek out films in 3D again!
 

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