WARNING !! BLU-RAY - THE NEW BETAMAX?

[admin_exported]

Quite a provocative title, but in my honest opinion, this could be very true and if I can save one other person on this forum from the same fate as myself, it was worth it. This is a follow-up or update to my recent post entitled THE GREAT HD RIP-OFF, which if you missed it, can be trolled through here. http://whathifi.com/forums/t/4209.aspx Our very honourable hosts of this forum, WHAT HI*FI SOUND AND VISION, specifically Andrew Everard, have taken an interest in the story and may hopefully get better responses from those concerned as a major influence in the AV industry, as opposed to myself, just a whinging consumer. So the update is as follows: I called LG AGAIN yesterday and the player is still not "repaired" after SIX WEEKS in their possession. They cannot/will not give me a date when it will even be looked at and apparently they are waiting for 2 particular technicians to take a look at it. If the truth be known, I believe that LG CANNOT fix it because they do not have a firmware update to apply, and this is also the reason I have not been given a replacement. I do not believe LG has a player that plays recent discs! So, on Wednesday, a friend of mine lent me his Sony BDP-1 player so that I could watch my recent disc purchases of "Cars" and "Die Hard 4" that were pre-ordered and delivered recently, before I cancelled ALL further Blu-Ray pre-orders. THINK AGAIN!! I loaded Disneys "Cars" into the SONY and watched the previews and adverts, 5 times actually because the disc did not allow you to skip past them, fast forward through them or access the disc menu. That wouldn't have been the end of the world, but then it goes onto the anti-piracy screen and then locks all controls out on the player and stays on that screen indefinately, so you cannot watch the movie. O well, it's a kids film so I'll watch "Die Hard 4" instead! Errr, NO, after 3 attempts at loading, the 3rd being successful, I suffered the same agonising troll through the previews, with now none of the player controls responding to either the remote OR directly on the player, until the main movie menu arrives. I press play which now works on a static menu screen but nothing else operates, I cannot do any of the "normal" playback functions, but I also cannot STOP the movie, eject the disc OR turn off the power to the player! Even with the player mounted power button. So as with my obsolete 3 month old LG, I have to pull the mains 240V lead out of the wall to turn the thing off, then plug it back in and press eject on the player just to retrieve the disc. And this is a 6 month old flagship SONY player. I have another friend who has a month old SONY BDP-S301 and he is bringing this to my house tomorrow to see what discs operate in this SONY player, as he has cancelled all his Blu-Ray orders until he tests my discs in his player. I will report my findings on this thread later. Now I am sure a lot of readers feel I am talking a lot of poo here, and if I had read this post 6 months ago I would have discounted it myself stating firmware update needed etc etc, and it's under warranty bla bla so whats the problem? So to try and prove my point that the manufacturers have no obligation to make their Blu-Ray players play Blu-Ray discs, read this from the terms and conditions of one of the top 3 player manufacturers websites. Manufacturers name replaced by myself with ?????? No Support. ???????? has no obligation to provide support, maintenance, upgrades, modifications or new releases for the Program or Documentation under this Agreement. WARRANTY DISCLAIMER THE PROGRAM AND DOCUMENTATION ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT ANY REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, AND YOU AGREE TO USE THEM AT YOUR SOLE RISK. TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMISSIBLE BY LAW, ???????? EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND WITH RESPECT TO THE PROGRAM AND DOCUMENTATION, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED, STATUTORY, OR ARISING OUT OF COURSE OF PERFORMANCE, COURSE OF DEALING OR USAGE OF TRADE, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, ACCURACY, TITLE OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. SO, the player does not have any warranty for quote " MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, SATISFACTORY QUALITY," Now this particular manufacturer has honoured it's moral obligations and provided, free of charge, no less than SIX firmware updates THIS YEAR, just to keep its top-of-the-range £1400 player able to play the discs! I wonder how soon it will be before the manufacturers start to require a subscription for these? When the 12 month "expected" warranty expires? If you have yet to experience this firmware issue and thought it was straight forward then check THIS out! FEEL FREE TO FAST FORWARD THROUGH THIS SECTION AT ANY TIME! HE HE. --Please be aware that all the player's settings will be reset to the factory default after the firmware update is completed on units with firmware version 3.40.1 and older. A. Check the current firmware version of the player: You can also use the remote control. 1. Press the "STANDBY/ON" button to switch the unit on. 2. If the player starts to play a disc, press the "STOP" button and wait until the Pioneer logo is displayed on your TV. 3. Press the "Home Menu" button. 4. Select "Initial Setup" then press "Enter." 5. Select "Video Out" then press "Enter". 6. Select "TV Aspect Ratio" then press Enter. 7. Press the "Blue" button on the remote control. 8. The firmware version of your player will be displayed in the bottom right portion of the TV screen. If the version number is 3.65 or higher, it is not necessary to update the firmware. If the version number is less than 3.65, it is necessary to update the firmware. Please continue to Step B. B. Download the firmware ZIP file from ???????? website: 1. Download the firmware ZIP file named "BDP_HD1_Ver365.zip" from the website to a folder on your computer. C. Copy the firmware to a Disc: NOTE: To create a DVD-R/-RW update disc, you will need: --A DVD-R/-RW drive --DVD-R/-RW creation (writing) software --One blank DVD-R or DVD-RW disc DVD-R Disc: You can only use a blank DVD-R disc not a DVD+R disc DVD-RW Disc: You must erase the contents of the DVD-RW disc before copying the firmware files to the disc --Supported OS: Windows: 98, 98SE, Me, 2000, XP, Vista, MacOS Note: No other OS is supported for this update. *For information about burning a DVD-R/-RW disc, refer to the instruction manual for your disc creation software. *Certain conditions or PC settings may prevent you from being able to correctly create the update disc. *For information about adding files to a DVD-R/-RW, refer to the instruction manual for your disc creation software, ask the manufacturer of the disc creation software, or manufacturer of the PC. 1. Place a DVD-R/-RW disc in the DVD drive. 2. Double click the ZIP file named "BDP_HD1_Ver365.zip" to open it. 3. Double click the zipped ISO file named "BDP_HD1_Ver365.iso". The DVD creation writing software on your computer should automatically open. After the software opens, it should already be set to burn an image file. If not, please make this the setting in your software. If your software does not open automatically, then please go to step 4, otherwise skip to step 5. 4. If your software does not open automatically, then extract and save the zipped file named "BDP_HD1_Ver365.iso" to a folder on your computer. Open your creation writing software, and set it to burn an image file. 5. Make sure the ISO file "BDP_HD1_Ver365.iso" is selected as the source file then copy/burn the file to the disc. D. After the disc is completed, confirm the following 4 files are on the disc. NOTE: If the correct files are not copi
ed to the disc, your player will not recognize it as an update disc and you will not be able to carry out the update. BRANDED 29 bytes P0001.BIN 128 bytes P0002.BIN 49.9 MB (52,398,112 bytes) P0003.BIN 128 bytes 1. Confirm the file sizes of all 4 files. You can check the file sizes by selecting a file then pressing the right mouse button and choosing "Properties". If the file names and sizes do not match the ones listed above, then perform steps B and C again using a new blank disc. E. Update the system firmware of the player: NOTE: --Use the front panel buttons to carry out all actions. DO NOT use the remote control buttons. --The update process can take from 10 to 60 minutes. --The disc tray will open during the updating process, so if you have your player in an enclosed space (i.e. an entertainment center), be sure to allow enough space for the disc tray to open without bumping anything. --DO NOT touch the disc tray or the disc until the update has finished. If you have any problem during the update process, please refer to the firmware update FAQ included in this document or you can call ??????? Customer Support Center. 1. Press the "STANDBY/ON" button to switch the unit on. 2. Press the "OPEN/CLOSE" button to open the disc tray. 3. Place the UPDATE disc you created on the disc tray. 4. Press the "OPEN/CLOSE" button on the front panel to close the tray. "DISC-DWLD" will appear on the front panel display of the player. WARNING!! DO NOT unplug the power cable and DO NOT press the "STANDBY/ON" button until the unit switches into standby mode as described in step 7. Doing so may result in your player becoming unresponsive and will then need repairs. Please continue to step 5. 5. After a few minutes the disc tray will open and the firmware update begins. DO NOT touch the disc or tray because during the firmware update. (In some cases, the disc tray may take longer than a few minutes to open). 6. The messages (DOWNLOAD,etc.) will appear on the front panel display of the player. DO NOT touch the disc or tray during the firmware update. Note that from this point, the update process can take from 5 to 60 minutes. 7. The message "DL OK" will appear on the front panel display for a few seconds after the firmware update has finished. The unit will automatically switche into standby with the disc tray remaining open and the lights on the front panel will be off. 8. Remove the UPDATE disc from the disc tray. 9. Press the "STANDBY/ON" button to switch the unit on. 10. Check the firmware version (see section A). If the version has not been upgraded to 3.65 then confirm that the files on the disc are the correct ones as described in step D, and perform the update again in step E. If the version is 3.65 then the firmware update was successful. The player is now ready for use. Firmware update FAQ Q: A "WRT FAILED" message is displayed on the front panel display, and the player goes into standby. A: If the disc tray is open, be sure to put the UPDATE disc on the tray and power on the player. The update process should resume. If the tray is closed, just power on the player. The update process should resume. If the update does not resume, the player will need repairs. Q: The power cord is unplugged during the update or black out occurs and power is down. A: If the disc tray is open, be sure to put the UPDATE disc on the tray and power on the player. The update process should resume. If the tray is closed, just power on the player. The update process should resume. If the update does not resume, the player will need repairs. Q: A "NO DWND 02" message is displayed on the front panel display. A: The latest version of the firmware is already installed, so no update is necessary. Q: The "DISC DWLD" message does not appear on the front panel display as shown in step 4 of section E. A: There is a problem with the update disc you created. Try downloading the firmware files once more and creating another disc to carry out the update. Q: Over 60 minutes have passed and the player has not switched to standby mode yet. A: Press and hold the "STANDBY/ON" button for over 10 seconds to put the player in standby mode. If the player does not switch to standby mode after 30 seconds or more of pressing and holding the "STANDBY/ON" button, unplug the power cord then plug the power cord back in. Turn the power back on with the update disc still inside the player. The disc should load and the update process should resume. If you experience this problem while the disc tray is opened, be sure to leave the update disc on the disc tray when you turn the power back on. The disc should load and the update process should resume. If the update does not resume, the player will need repairs. Prepared for THAT were you? I certainly wasn't. So my advice to anyone considering getting into an HD disc playing system is BUY AN HD-DVD PLAYER. The Blu-Ray system is good when it works but there are too many risks involved, I now have 2 players worth nearly £2000 and between them I cannot play any disc released in the last 6 weeks that I have bought, and these include "Cars, Die Hard 4, Fantastic Four - Rise of the Silver Surfer and 28 Weeks later". In fact EVERY ONE of my last 4 purchases. I would add that it is the FORMAT that is faulty, not the players. The hardware plays the software, then the studios change the software so the players will not play them! So which is wrong, the player or the disc? The disc is, but you cannot return it because it is opened and "used", and may play on another player! They may as well sell you a blank disc for £20. So the bottom line here is I think the SONY Blu-Ray player will soon be in the loft with my SONY BETAMAX video player, next to my SONY MINIDISC player, and on top of my SONY SACD player. There seems to be a pattern forming here? Please be cautious and don't blow big money on a format that is dying on it's feet, get an HD-DVD player, they ALL seem to play EVERYTHING. Now I am off to rent a DVD or two from the rental shop. Is there anything I could use the DVD burning software and DVD-R drive for, that I had to buy to burn firmware updates with,( that didn't work, (to stop piracy))? Ho hum!!! Stay tuned HD fans. Oldskool. (and getting older FAST)

 

[FoxJA]

Thats one hell of a long post, hope you used cut and paste for that!

I have both formats now, Blu Ray being through the PS3 and had no problems with any discs, including Die Hard 4.0 on Blu Ray.

Would be interesting to hear if anyone else had problems with the LG, Sony or any other players.

 

[Anonymous]

I have never had any problems with my PS3. Fox, just out of interest, which format do you consider to be better?

 

[Anonymous]

As having been able to use both formats in the past, I feel there is nothing to tell between them quality wise but as I am pretty uninterested in all these new functionalities and funky menu's, I cannot comment on these.

It would appear that SONY are attempting to totally dominate the market with the PS3 as a player as well as a gaming machine. I wonder if they planned this from the offset and this is why the PS3 was so delayed? Installing the next few years firmware updates in advance and then keeping the info away from the competition.

Thought their stand alone players would be ok though!

Oldskool.

 

[FoxJA]

As Oldkool said, I don't think there is any real difference between them. The only film I've seen on both formats is 300, and there may have been some very minor differences but this could be the player and not the disc, or even my imagination!

I like the HD DVD's at the moment just because I like to see True HD light up on my Onkyo 875.

 

[Anonymous]

i had probs with my samsung bdp-1000 wouldnt play potcarribbean,or 300 phoned samsung they said its disc content not player no firm ware update available i said it shoulnt be for sale if cant play all blu-ray discs.took player back to costco for full refund funny how all the players have been taken off shelves , id advise any one else to do the same before its to late to do so,still considerin another player at moment but lookin very carefully at present time.

 

[Anonymous]

Ps3 is a safe bet! played every film ive thrown in it with no issues

 

[Clare Newsome]

I agree it's an unholy mess- and it's the studios to blame, rather than the hardware manufacturers (many of whom, as you'll notice,are keeping well away from both formats at present).

However,we've had no problems with either our Pioneer reference player or the PS3 - including with Die Hard 4.0.

I've got meetings set up with both the Blu-ray and HD DVD camps in early January to discuss these and many more issues....

 

[Anonymous]

What are the chances of one camp before the end of next year?

 

[Anonymous]

It is impossible for anyone to quote a reliable figure on the chance.

But I would say, that the chances of having no camp is larger than having only one.

The entire industry, ie film production, hardware manufacturers are already moving on to the next thing.

That is streamed contents. you will not be buying discs anymore. You will download them. You should be noticing all the little signs that are already emerging in PCs, home networks and even AV equipment.

I would expect many people would say, but the inernet connection's too slow... Yes, but that's in the UK. Many other countries already have connection speeds (actual) above 40Mbps. Those countries are United States, Japan, Korea, Scandinavian countries. Notice the relation between the country of origin of the equipments and internet speed ? In countries where the equipments are made and where the greatest market are, they are ready for it today !

SONY has already given up on PS3. They have sold their LSI factory that developed and produced the CELL chip used in PS3. They just don't see a future for it.

So sadly, Uk will miss out on the next big thing stuck with the no-where-to-go, mediocre technology divided in two camps.

 

[Anonymous]

Just for your information, my player report is now as follows:

SONY BDP-S301 so far plays everything without problems. (1 month old player)

SONY BDP-S1 will not play "Cars" or "Die Hard 4". (6 months old)

LG BH-100 will not play "Cars", "Die Hard 4", "Fantastic Four/Silver Surfer" OR "28 Weeks Later". (3 months old)

PS3 plays everything.

This report OBVIOUSLY does not include discs I have not bought.

This really is fast becoming the new Betamax issue. I am already stuck now with a £900 LG only any good for playing HD DVD's.

CLARE NEWSOME, Would it be possible to do a "sticky" on the forum that we could all access that would list posters experiences with non playing discs on certain players. How about calling it the "HALL OF SHAME"? You could even publish it in the mag so that owners of certain players would know which discs to steer clear of, or which discs for EVERYONE to keep away from, this would be a great help to your readers and that way the studios may reconsider their position if it were known that noone will buy their discs if they do not work, and the player manufacturers will need to keep their players updated or slide down the playability table. A difficult thing for the MAGAZINE to do without upsetting some major advertisers, but how about a READERS database?

Regards, Gerry.

Oldskool

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="susanoo"]SONY has already given up on PS3[/quote]

Sony no longer make their panels, but I see no evidence of them stopping making TVs. They're with PS3 for the longterm. 10 layer blu-ray discs capable of holding over 250gb are under devolpment. In terms of graphics alone, that will be one hell of a game!!

Anyway, back to the PS3 as a blu-ray player. I think your problems, Gerry, highlight the drawback of wishing to be at the cutting edge. You mentioned on a different post that you like to buy the latest gear so, in a way, the manufacturers use guys like you like beta testers. The difference is you pay top dollar for your kit and they don't pay you to report back any problems. 1 year down the line and along comes people like me who fancy having a taste of High-Def but without the High-Price.

For me the wider choice of titles and the ease of firmware upgrade led me to Blu-ray and the PS3. I know it has limitatons and there will no doubt be some titles that will be HD-dvd only(but I can always up-scale). I can wait. No hurry. For me there is no format war. That is just between the manufacturers and studios. Not my problem.

Why should I care? Remember, not so long ago when dvd player/recorders first came out? there were about 4 different formats on the go. Its WAR!! the cry went out. Now all machines are multi-format and nobody bothers about it.

Let Blu-ray and HD-dvd battle it out. Each will try and out do the other. The product may get even better as a result. So my next player will be a dual-format affair. This time next year I suspect I will not be the only one.

 

[Clare Newsome]

[quote user="Oldskool"]

CLARE NEWSOME, Would it be possible to do a "sticky" on the forum that we could all access that would list posters experiences with non playing discs on certain players. How about calling it the "HALL OF SHAME"? You could even publish it in the mag so that owners of certain players would know which discs to steer clear of, or which discs for EVERYONE to keep away from, this would be a great help to your readers and that way the studios may reconsider their position if it were known that noone will buy their discs if they do not work, and the player manufacturers will need to keep their players updated or slide down the playability table. A difficult thing for the MAGAZINE to do without upsetting some major advertisers, but how about a READERS database?

[/quote]

I'll get one of the guys onto it Monday - a good shout.

And I don't mind about upsetting advertisers,as long as it's justified comment - as the amount of two- and three-star products (even one-star!) featured in our tests. It's you lot out there spending your money that are of more concern to us editorial types...

 

[Anonymous]

Sony giving up on the PS3. lol what nonsense.

 

[Anonymous]

nearly as much as blueray being the superior format

 

[Andy Clough]

[quote user="Rock Man"]What are the chances of one camp before the end of next year?[/quote]

Highly unlikely I'm afraid. There were talks between the various parties a year or two back to try and get agreement on a single HD video format, but sadly they came to nothing. It looks as if dual-format players will be the most sensible solution, just as we now have multi-format DVD recorders, but as Clare says, it's still messy.

 

[Andrew Everard]

[quote user="Clare Newsome"]I'll get one of the guys onto it Monday - a good shout.[/quote]

No sooner said than done - it's here.

 

[Clare Newsome]

Thanks, as ever, Andrew

Do keep the feedback coming on those discs - this is like the early days of DVD all over again...

 

[Andy Clough]

Yes indeed! I seem to recall we nearly had two formats for DVD, with Sony/Philips pushing their MMCD (Multimedia CD) format while everyone else wanted DVD. Mercifully the Hollywood studios banged heads together and demanded (and got) the single DVD format. Shame the same hasn't happened with Blu-ray/HD DVD.

 

[Anonymous]

I absolutely agree with you David, and if I pay £1000 for a first generation player that can be bought 6 months later, better and cheaper for £250 then I am OK with that. Not happy, but acceptable. But to pay that premium on a DUAL FORMAT player that was really hedging my bets on the format contest, and then find IT DOESNT PLAY BLU-RAYS 3 months later really isn't playing ball!

This isn't a format war issue with me choosing the wrong side! I chose BOTH and still lost nearly a grand in 3 months.

Also, don't forget I waited nearly 2 years before diving-in, found no clear leader so got both. I had never heard the term "Firmware" before this and it never even crossed my mind that a situation would occur where a BD player would not play a BD disc. This may be common in the computer world where software manufacturers blame hardware and visa-versa for all encountered problems, but this is completely new to the AV consumer. The nearest this has ever come was when turntables stopped playing 78's!

Vinyl, cassettes, tapes, video, CD and DVD never had this play today, not tomorrow problem. The recordable formats you mention were just that - different, they did not stop FUNCTIONING 3 months later. If I put a Betamax tape in a Betamax recorder today, it will function as well as it did 20 years ago. THIS issue is very different

My problem is not the cost, it's the functionality. If the player still worked I have SPENT £900, if it does not work, I have LOST £900. Subtle difference I hope you understand my drift.

Regards, Oldschool.

 

[Anonymous]

yeah looked at ps3 but lack of 5.1 outputs put me off needed them to get pcm output from my amp for better sound otherwise would have bought one.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="clown"]
yeah looked at ps3 but lack of 5.1 outputs put me off needed them to get pcm output from my amp for better sound otherwise would have bought one.
[/quote]

PS3 outputs up to 7.1 channels of PCM via HDMI.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Bullseye"]
Sony giving up on the PS3. lol what nonsense.

[/quote]

Ignorance is bliss.

Facts Sony 2007 Q2 earnings report.

view 13. Q2 FY07 GAME on the following link

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/viewer/07q2/

Comment

PS3 is the biggest blunder that Sony made in recent years.

They are forced to sell below cost, they lose around 100 pounds for every unit they sell, and they are not selling many, so inventory is incresing which they have to write down.

Software sales is down, which is critical. Game publishers are spending time and money to make Wii games rather than PS3 games for obvious reasons. Less games less consoles. They are in an inescapable vicious spiral. And even if they work miracles to sell more consoles they lose more money. Catch 22.

The longer they continue the greater they bleed and they know it well.

For the blunder, they sacked the MD. The mission for the replacement is to make swift exit with minimal loss. The first step was to sell the CELL chip business.

They are already in an exit strategy.

Of course they will not publicise the fact.

 

[FoxJA]

I've got to agree with Bullseye on this one - Sony will not be dumping the PS3 anytime soon.

Playstation has been a massive part of Sony's business since the launch of the first one, and they fully expected to make a loss in the first year after launch, I think it was the same with the PS2.

Sony are still spending money on developing new peripherals and add on's for the PS3, such as the new Rumble pads and the upcoming Freeview TV add on. And there is a long list of games in development and due for release.

The Wii is not in direct competition with the PS3, the most popular type of game is First person shooters and they are largely a dissapointment on the Wii that does not have the graphical capabilities of the PS3 or XBox 360 and there is virtually no online play for the Wii.

Selling off the Cell chip business does ot mean they will not have the cells anymore, it is just streamlining or outsourcing. A common method in business to raise a large sum quickly whilst removing some of the work, Toshiba is rumoured to be buying this part and becoming partners with Sony for the Cells with a deal all ready in place regarding production levels for Sony.

The PS3 is less than a year old in the UK and I fully expect it to go for at least another 2 - 3 years before being replaced.

 

[Anonymous]

So, as you guys are now discussing the future of the SONY organisation and the PS3, and you see differently, are you really saying that the entire future of BLU-RAY is totally dependant on the future of PS3 because even FoxJA, who sees a future for the PS3 only sees it for "2 -3 years"?

I thought from the outset that Blu-Ray would need a significant boost from PS3 to make headway against HD-DVD, and bring it's initial cost down.

In the last 20 years I have seen the HI-Fi industry slump and then resurge due to the linking with the TV/video industry, (home cinema etc) and then the small inroads that the computer industry has made into the new AV combo (hard drives and media players) and Windows Media Servers not really becoming a major force yet, (MP3 excepted), but I never thought that us serious Hi-Fi and Home Cinema enthusiasts, many of whom will spend thousands on our hobbies and equipment would be at the mercy of the toy/game industry!

None of which fixes my LG Blu-Ray player! he he he.