My first online high-res music purchase - rip off.

[Green Bow]

[EDIT: Although I have not received it yet, on 26th Jan, Technics Tracks offered me another album to choose free. I chose one. Thirteen days later and still nothing from Technics Tracks. Therefor it;s not coming. This is since posting my warning about this purchase. )

After the last copy of What Hi-Fi recommended Technics Tracks, I thought about buying from them for weeks. I wanted this: https://tracks.technics.com/GB/releases/4041517

Beethoven's Symphonies 1-9, 96KHz 24bit. I figured it will save me the hassle of buying all the individual CDs and storing and ripping them. I have just made this purchase. However I will have to buy the CDs, store them, and rip them as well.

The reason why this purchase turned out to be a rip-off, is all the symphonies are in mono. The sound qaulity is appaling. I just blew £17 and I know I will not get my money back. On top of that I had to register an account with them and they now hold my bank details. I do not feel my bank details are safe with a company that just stung me.

Anyway let it be warning.

If anyone is thinking of advising, 'why not listen to the samples on the store page?'. Simple answer, they have disabled the samples on this store item.

I am sure it is a legal requirement to display if music is in mono. If it actually is in stereo, then I have a theory for why it sounds so bad. I own Beethoven's 5th Symphony on CD, from a collection called The Great Composers. It was a set of CDs accompanying a set of magazines called The Great Composers. The version that I just bought from Technics Tracks sounds identical to that CD copy. I am sure that CD copy is in mono, or just a really poor recording. I think for Technics Tracks to have produced a 96KHz version, it must be an upsample. Or they literally got some microphones and recorded the CD playing.

 

[Vladimir]

Yes, they are selling upsampled old recordings with bad sound quality, but it's not like they are saying otherwise. How can they have a very old recording in high res even before digital audio was invented? Unless they invented a time traveling machine to go back and record Karajan with 24/96 digital, it should be obvious to us that they simply upsampled the files from tapes and CDs. You can upsample any 16/44.1 yourself if you think it makes a difference.

But I'm sure they also have some master recordings that are original 24/96, but these will be newer recordings from recent years. It's been maybe a decade since studios started using 24/96 as a standard. Before that it was recording 16/48 on DAT tapes and for a while 24/48 when PC recording was introduced.

 

[chebby]

Wasn't Karajan's dark hair and the years 1951 - 1955 on the artwork a bit of a give away?

Do you feel cheated when some old movie classics turn out to be black & white?

 

[spiny norman]

Not neccesarily upsampled, but rather a hi-res digital version of the original analogue tapes of these historic recordings.

The music samples I can hear on that site are very definitely mono, but actually sound oretty good. And given the recording dates of 1951-1955, clearly visible on the cover artwork, what would you expect, given that the first stereo LPs didn't appear until the end of the 1950s?

Not so much rip-off as caveat emptor, with an emphasis on the awareness.

 

[spiny norman]

Do you feel cheated when some old movie classics turn out to be black & white?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2kqadp

 

[Vladimir]

Not neccesarily upsampled, but rather a hi-res digital version of the original analogue tapes of these historic recordings.

Yes. I shouldn't say upsampling since it could be a case they used actual analogue master tapes to make the 24/96 digital. However, it is still a pointless excercise unless they remastered it. But how much improvement can be had with an old mono recording from deteriorated tapes that are no better than 11 bits? Even if they simulated stereo, it won't be anywhere close to actual stereo recording at 24/96. *unknw*

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

Do you feel cheated when some old movie classics turn out to be black & white?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2kqadp

Does that mean that someone at Daily Motion has got a Time Machine? I'm very confused.

 

[spiny norman]

Yes. I shouldn't say upsampling since it could be a case they used actual analogue master tapes to make the 24/96 digital. However, it is still a pointless excercise unless they remastered it. But how much improvement can be had with an old mono recording from deteriorated tapes that are no better than 11 bits? Even if they simulated stereo, it won't be anywhere close to actual stereo recording at 24/96. *unknw*

Why on earth should they simulate stereo, when the recordings are mono? That's a bit like 'colorizing' old movies. All that's been done here is a means of preserving what you describe as 'deteriorating old tapes' – IIRC Sony embarked on a program of copying all of its archive to DSD some years back, and I assume Warner is doing something similar.

And anyway, woeful website information aside, this isn't too bad a price for what is a classic set of performances.

 

[Vladimir]

Yes. I shouldn't say upsampling since it could be a case they used actual analogue master tapes to make the 24/96 digital. However, it is still a pointless excercise unless they remastered it. But how much improvement can be had with an old mono recording from deteriorated tapes that are no better than 11 bits? Even if they simulated stereo, it won't be anywhere close to actual stereo recording at 24/96. *unknw*

Why on earth should they simulate stereo, when the recordings are mono? That's a bit like 'colorizing' old movies. All that's been done here is a means of preserving what you describe as 'deteriorating old tapes' – IIRC Sony embarked on a program of copying all of its archive to DSD some years back, and I assume Warner is doing something similar.

And anyway, woeful website information aside, this isn't too bad a price for what is a classic set of performances.

I just listened to few tracks and I must say it sounds very good in the 320 MP3 previews. Minus the pointless Hi-Res packaging, I'd be chuffed to have the set.

 

[The_Lhc]

Wasn't Karajan's dark hair and the years 1951 - 1955 on the artwork a bit of a give away?

Do you feel cheated when some old movie classics turn out to be black & white?

You jest but I used to work with a bloke who turned off The Wizard of Oz after three minutes because it was black and white. His wife will not watch any film older than she is. She was born in the late 80s.

 

[spiny norman]

I just listened to few tracks and I must say it sounds very good in the 320 MP3 previews. Minus the pointless Hi-Res packaging, I'd be chuffed to have the set.

Agreed: to my ears it does sound very good indeed. And the same recordings on CD sell for anything up to £43 on Amazon, or a tenner in Shrink-o-Sonics™ on iTunes.

 

[Green Bow]

I am shocked to see that people are saying it sounds good in MP3. Where are you getting this MP3 version of the music from? To me the music I have plays all in the centre of the speaker. There is no stereo spacing. When I play it in Foobar the waveforms are identical between left and right. It's got to be mono.

Anyway I guess I need to explain why I was not expecting the result I got. I have a CD copy of Karajan playing Beethovens 6th and it is brilliant. In full stereo and crystal clear. It was with the Berlin Philharmonic. The Technics Tracks copy was with the Philharmonia Orchestra, which I thougth was the same. The problem was that the samples on the store page did not work.

However even though I thought Technics Tracks would not care, they wrote to me today. Within one day! They offered me another album. The message read: "I'm sorry about the fault you found. is there another album you would like me to replace this for?"

I think the best option is to ask for the other version of Beethoven's Symphonies 1-9. It is in 16-bit 44KHz, but that's OK. I just want the music in a playable format, and the one I bought was terrible. Trust me it stinks! (I really have no idea which MP3 version you are listening to.)

However if Technics Tracks are going to be fair with me then I can consider remaining a customer. Sadly I lose £7 because the HD Karajan copy was that much more.

PS I never understood why people prefer the Bohm version Beethoven's 6th. It sounds rushed.

 

[chebby]

PS I never understood why people prefer the Bohm version Beethoven's 6th. It sounds rushed.

He da Bohm!

 

[Vladimir]

In that Technics page Right Click on one of the play buttons and Save link As. You will download a preview mp3, and if you look in the file Properties > Details, you will see it's 320kbps.

 

[Green Bow]

I just hit the play button on the Karajan page and nothing happens on any of the tracks. I figured Technics Tracks realise they should have labelled it mono and accept their mistake. It's too much conicidence that the samples don't run normally.

The other Beethoven 1-9 album is OK. https://tracks.technics.com/GB/releases/4251960

However it's not as clear as the CD I have of Beethoven's 6th. I might be better buying the symphonies individually. It will cost radically more, but be listenable. Having said that it will be a lot of work finding good recording of each.

I should take up Technics Tracks offer of another free album quickly too.

It's really hard work buying classical I have found. I recently bought Vivaldi's Four Seasons, with Nigel Kennedy. He has messed it up with some bit of improvisation on tracks 8 and 9. He has put some quiet whiney screechy bits in at the start of those tracks. Plus a load of violin slapping in track nine. I either put up with or rebuy.

 

[chebby]

Complete Beethoven Symphonies 1 - 9 by the LSO and Bernard Haitink for £20 (Hybrid CD/SACD).

Downloads of some of these are available as FLAC Studio Masters (and 320K MP3) from the LSO's own download site...

http://lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/flac/beethoven

 

[spiny norman]

I am shocked to see that people are saying it sounds good in MP3. Where are you getting this MP3 version of the music from? To me the music I have plays all in the centre of the speaker. There is no stereo spacing. When I play it in Foobar the waveforms are identical between left and right. It's got to be mono.

Yes, it is, for reasons already explained.

 

[spiny norman]

I recently bought Vivaldi's Four Seasons, with Nigel Kennedy. He has messed it up with some bit of improvisation on tracks 8 and 9. He has put some quiet whiney screechy bits in at the start of those tracks. Plus a load of violin slapping in track nine. I either put up with or rebuy.

Kennedy explained this in a radio programme broadcast yesterday.

 

[Green Bow]

I recently bought Vivaldi's Four Seasons, with Nigel Kennedy. He has messed it up with some bit of improvisation on tracks 8 and 9. He has put some quiet whiney screechy bits in at the start of those tracks. Plus a load of violin slapping in track nine. I either put up with or rebuy.

Kennedy explained this in a radio programme broadcast yesterday.

I remember watching an interview with him talking The Four Seasons, on youtube. I boght the CD soon after. However I recall nothing about the noises I described. I think he was discussing the performance we see on youtube.

Still means I would really rather have another version. *bad* ... Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.

 

[spiny norman]

I remember watching an interview with him talking The Four Seasons, on youtube. I boght the CD soon after. However I recall nothing about the noises I described. I think he was discussing the performance we see on youtube.

He discussed the noises you mentioned in the interview to which I linked.

 

[Green Bow]

As said, Technics Tracks asked me if there was another album I would like them to replace my bad purchase. I emailed them yesterday but still waiting for a response. I asked for the cheaper lower resolution other version of Beethoven's Symphonies 1-9. Still waiting for a reply. Bit worried as they replied very quickly initially.

Maybe they are not happy with what I asked for, but will have to wait and see. I asked for a credit for the balance as well, as the other Beethoven is cheaper.

If I don't hear from them I think I am going to ask them to delete my account and bank details. The way I see it is they should have listed the item as mono. Considering the samples of the music were not working I think they knew they had poor recordings. There is no way I would have touched that album if I had heard samples.

Have to wait and see.

 

[Vladimir]

You couldn't hear the previews because your browser is malfunctioning with javascript.

You accidentally posted "Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.", which is a browser issue with javascript that appears on pages.

 

[Green Bow]

After reading your post Vladimir, I just wondered. The samples do run in Firefox. I have a few instances of stuff that will run in Forefox but not in Internet Explorer. E.g. copy and paste in What Hi-Fi forums.

However I read a while ago that I.E. was more secure than Firefox. Therefore anything that needs safety online that I do, I use I.E.

I suppose Technics Tracks think I am lying now about that. Dam. My payment went through as well. £17 in the bin, I think.

I am surprised I did not hear from them today but wonder if they were buying time for payment to process.

 

[Vladimir]

I have experience in building websites and getting 100% functional website in every browser and in every version is impractical and very expensive. The online store can afford to appease the rare customer who has problems with their site due to old browser or script issues. It's much cheaper than go nuts by making a site that works on everything perfectly and then brawl with customers about refund.

I presume they want you as a returning customer and it really doesn't matter who did what, they just want to get you sorted and happy.

BTW did you try ASIO4ALL to fix your Mojo DAC dropouts?

 

[Green Bow]

Yeah you'd think they'd want me to be a customer. However I emailed them on 30th December 2015 asking which payment methods they accept. It took until the 19th Jan 2016 before they answered. Same person handling customer support, as dealing with this. Not much hope is there.

Why the Mojo mutes first second of music has finally come out. It does it when changing sampling frequency. That was one of the criteria why I was not going to open mine and was going to return it. However I was assured it was OK by Chord with recordings of the same sampling frequency. (We discussed this Vladimir, however there is more.)

I opened my Mojo, and found it was not the case. The Mojo can mute the first second of music when there is no change in sampling frequency. Chord now explained that the Mojo sees a break in music like skipping to another track or album, as zero sampling ferequency. Thus it mutes all over the place. It seems intermittent, as some tracks have a silence intro anyway. Re-clicking on the same track to re-start it causes no mute.

My Meridian Explorer, manages a change in sampling frequency completely differently. I actually inserts a silence of about a second or two and delays starting the music. It's to allow for hardware synchonisation.

I think Chord were being deceptive. The Hugo operates in the same way too, and I bet they all do. I don't know why but some DACs just do this. I was told one of the Schiit DACs does it.

I think the solution is get the Audiolab M-DAC, but it's getting on a bit now and only 96KHz USB asynchronous.