Is it really possible to give an opinion or rate a Hi-Fi component?

[rendu]

You probably already figured out that this is a philosophical quetion. If you are not much into Hi-philosophy you may want to stop here.

Over and over again we see people (including myself) asking recomendations about products, what is the best AV receiver, or what is the best speaker, blue-ray, etc.. In 99 % of the case the replies are never the same and, when they are the same or similar it is in most cases when people make a recommendation based on the magazine reviews, not even his own reviews.

I believe it is very very very difficult to give an opinion about a Hi-Fi component on its own. The result is totaly different as soon as you change any of the rest the other components; Blue-ray, speakers, subwoofer, cd player, room, speaker possition, etc, etc, etc.

In addition once you add a new component you have to configure it to match the rest of the system; speaker levels, equalization, DTS modes for each input, etc. My experience is that every time I have changed any of the components, it has taken me from 2 weeks to 1 month to completely tweak the settings until it gives its best in my room and with the rest of the components.

For those 2 reasos is why I also find it very difficult to even relly on the limited testing you can do at the hi-fi shops (if any). It is very difficult to test things in same conditions as you would be back at home.

What is your opinion? You believe that opnions about separete components have any value appart from a pure technical/features description?

 

[Anonymous]

I bought my first system based on price and reviews.

I got a pioneer vsx-819 and wharefdale diamond speakers, which I loved.

Then did more research and got my current system.

 

[pete321]

I find reviews very useful. As long as the review imparts whether the sound is bright, warm or somewhere inbetween the two, you can then make a decision based on your personal preferences. For my taste, any review which says a the sound produced is warm tends to steer me away, whereas soemone else may think that's great.

 

[Paul.]

An opinion by definition is a subjective statement. You would be mad to make a purchse based on one oppinion, but can construct trends based on the opinions of many.

The problem occurs when people regurgitate 'conventional wisdom' without actually actually testing things. If I had listened to internet whispers I never would have demoed speakers with metal dome tweeters, cos on paper, I should hate them.

 

[chudleighpaul]

rendu:

You probably already figured out that this is a philosophical quetion. If you are not much into Hi-philosophy you may want to stop here.

Over and over again we see people (including myself) asking recomendations about products, what is the best AV receiver, or what is the best speaker, blue-ray, etc.. In 99 % of the case the replies are never the same and, when they are the same or similar it is in most cases when people make a recommendation based on the magazine reviews, not even his own reviews.

I believe it is very very very difficult to give an opinion about a Hi-Fi component on its own. The result is totaly different as soon as you change any of the rest the other components; Blue-ray, speakers, subwoofer, cd player, room, speaker possition, etc, etc, etc.

In addition once you add a new component you have to configure it to match the rest of the system; speaker levels, equalization, DTS modes for each input, etc. My experience is that every time I have changed any of the components, it has taken me from 2 weeks to 1 month to completely tweak the settings until it gives its best in my room and with the rest of the components.

For those 2 reasos is why I also find it very difficult to even relly on the limited testing you can do at the hi-fi shops (if any). It is very difficult to test things in same conditions as you would be back at home.

What is your opinion? You believe that opnions about separete components have any value appart from a pure technical/features description?

You have hit the nail on the head, what may sound good under review conditions, or in a shop demo room, can sound awful in your home with the different accoustics.

For that reason always try to test gear in your own home with your existing equipment.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree. I've tried hundreds of different products over the last 10 years and often find myself at odds with expert opinion. I've sat in a large audition room and seen how much difference swapping cables can make, but ask people which set up they preferred and the results across a fairly large coss section seemed neither to favour more costly, nor more highly rated products, unless the listeners know the expert opinion..then they come down heavily in favour of the experts. (Many including me suddenly think that the improvement is clear for all to hear).

I've taken a newly 5 star speaker to audition at a home where the incumbant speakers were considered no match and had to admit that even at the same price, there was no reason to cahnge, let alone for the £300 differece in current new price. All down to the favoured positioning and the matching equipment.

 

[chudleighpaul]

I bought a new TV in January. Had I believed the reviews, I would never have considered it. The reviews rattled on about backlight problems and the rest.

I bought one from John Lewis. It is a superb TV, no backlight problems, Freeview HD which is great. Can't fault it.

 

[Trefor Patten]

Is it possible to give an opinion - yes, of course it is. Surely the question is whether such an opinion should ever form the sole reason for a future purchase and the answer to that is almost never!

 

[Trefor Patten]

Actually, this should have been in my last reply:
"Believe nothing merely because you have been told it.
Do not believe what your teacher tells you
merely out of respect for the teacher.
But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis,
you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit,
the welfare of all beings -- that doctrine believe and cling to,

and take it as your guide." Gautama Buddha

First said more than 2,500 years ago and just as true today.

 

[kinda]

I think some of the definitive factual elements of reviews are helpful, but obviously where it's just someone's opinion less so. You've really got to read a lot and put them in context of what you want.

I'm not sure the concept of this is year's best, it's 5 stars is really that helpful. To me 5 stars has to mean anyone would be delighted with it, and with amps and speakers especially I don't think that can really be said. How helpful or legitimate is it to say x BluRay player is the best player available this year?

Also, I know what you mean with not really being able to evaluate stuff easily as you hear / see them with different other products and in other environments, and it has an effect. Also you don't know how well the equipment is set up.

I think you've just got to do what you can at the time, and as you do further demos you form a more rounded opinion. For example in AV amps I think I'd just go Denon now rather than do a load of demoing, though I'd maybe listen to Marantz or try an Arcam if moving up in budget. I've found the Denon / Marantz is the kind of sound I like after hearing various amps with different speakers over time.

 

[Anonymous]

I couldn't agree less. The 5 stars just mean that, with the test equipment some listeners whose tastes I may or may not not share think a certain piece of equipment is good. Another day, another set of ears, different equipment and five stars turn into one.

In the end, my advice would be to go for you own ears/eyes and their judgement. To be honest, I'm beginning to wonder whether any advice, other than go and listen/watch, is really worthwhile. We all recommend what we like, and I'm as guilty as anyone for that.

 

[datay]

It's not even a debate since I can't remember a time when hifi mags didn't repeatedly tell the reader to audition in the shop at the very least and at home if possible. Kit-matching is usually mentioned, though the shorter WHF reviews often don't mention what was used. Taking the number of stars or review comments as anything other than a subjective guide is down to the reader.

 

[kinda]

Grottyash I think we actually agree; maybe my post didn't come across correctly.

I'm saying people need to listen themselves, but that process also isn't easy due to the other components that come into play. I'm saying 5 stars / product of the year doesn't mean it's fantastic for everyone but that's maybe how it's often taken.

Though the magazines say demo, I absolutely don't believe they present 5 star items as 'great just to the magazine person who rated them, in our environment, but might be rubbish for you'. Have a look at the star definitions in WHF for example.

But if the magazine reviews are just the interpretation of a person or couple of people they are relevant only for them really, and then what's the point?

I'd like to see definitive measures. So for example a speaker should have a flat frequency response; let's see the measured response and how flat it is. Machines can measure the data coming through HDMI, so let's see that and how much data is being dropped.

People have different preferences but I think empirical measures like this, and dropping the opinion and star ratings, would give a better basis for a demo list.

 

[datay]

kinda:
I'd like to see definitive measures. So for example a speaker should have a flat frequency response; let's see the measured response and how flat it is. Machines can measure the data coming through HDMI, so let's see that and how much data is being dropped.

People have different preferences but I think empirical measures like this, and dropping the opinion and star ratings, would give a better basis for a demo list.

Other mags have these. I can't tell if you do or don't realise that. WHF isn't about that and I can't see them introducing it soon.

 

[kinda]

I read a variety of magazines, and do know that there are measurements in some, but nothing along the lines I've mentioned that I'm aware of.

Would a car magazine for example say this car feels faster than the other when driving in my view, or would they just measure the speed?

But what is What Hi Fi about in your view?

 

[Clare Newsome]

kinda:
I read a variety of magazines, and do know that there are measurements in some, but nothing along the lines I've mentioned that I'm aware of.

Would a car magazine for example say this car feels faster than the other when driving in my view, or would they just measure the speed?

But what is What Hi Fi about in your view?

The host of these Forums, for starters

There are, indeed, magazines that offer technical measurements.

Our methodology is based on experienced testers comparatively reviewing products in dedicated facilities, as a team - with a wide range of products to test against/with at hand.

 

[kinda]

And that's great, but all I'm saying is the reviews are personal to the reviewers, and potentially relative to the partnering kit. On that basis does it make much sense to elevate a single product to 'best this year', and how does it help buyers?

Maybe overall ratings as such should even be scrapped, the words of the review being enough?

There are always elements that can't be represented by measurements but a lot can, and the objective measure, rather than subjective opinion would be a better buying guide for those aspects.

 

[Andrew Everard]

And that's great, but all I'm saying is the reviews are personal to the reviewers, and potentially relative to the partnering kit.

...Except as Clare has said, the reviewing is done as a team, with two or more pairs or ears or eyes on every product, and with a variety of relevant partnering equipment: should a product only perform, or fail to perform, in a combination with a particular partnering component, or have a strong characteristic likely to limit its partnering options, that will be made clear in the review.

 

[Dougal1331]

WHF have always insisted that their reviews should be taken as a starting-point to create a shortlist, rather than 'five stars, buy it now', the ethos is more 'five stars- you may want to try this one as well...'

Opinions will always vary by the individual, but the reviewers have heard/seen so many bits of kit, that their opinion is more qualified than many- and can therefore be used to at least rule out anything that isn't up to scratch.

When spending big lumps of money, always go with your own opinion in the end!

 

[Anonymous]

Not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to go out and demo products. Im uk born but i live abroad at the moment and where i live at the moment i can't demo any decent speakers at all. If i could of, i would! I have to go by reviews and what people think. WHF was a huge help in me narrowing down the amp and speakers i wanted and in the end i have to say im very happy with what i bought.

 

[kinda]

Hello,

Yes, I'm not for one minute saying reviews should be stopped but it's the whole concept of promoting single products as being better than all the rest based on the review I'm sceptical about.

I'm sure I'm not unique in having found WHF 4* products I believe better 5* products.

I think also the reviews would be better supported with objective measures where possible. I don't believe having 3 reviewers makes the evaluation objective as the sample group isn't big enough. Andrew in another thread where I suggested you should easily be able to evaluate if more expensive players showed more detail than cheaper ones you actually said that it wasn't possible using 2 or 3 people as if you put 2 or 3 people in front of a player you'll get 2 or 3 completely different opinions on performance.

Also maybe comparing against a performance baseline rather than just relatively to peers would give a fuller picture. I also think that if star ratings are mainained it would be good to see a more detailed breakdown into things like DVD upscaling, BluRay picture, film sound, music sound, and so on for player for example, so people can really see the individual bits they're intrested in.

 

[Andrew Everard]

I don't believe having 3 reviewers makes the evaluation objective as the sample group isn't big enough. Andrew in another thread where I suggested you should easily be able to evaluate if more expensive players showed more detail than cheaper ones you actually said that it wasn't possible using 2 or 3 people as if you put 2 or 3 people in front of a player you'll get 2 or 3 completely different opinions on performance.

So what's statistically acceptable? 10? 20? And I'm talking both the number of reviewers and how many quid you'd have to pay for an issue here.

Also maybe comparing against a performance baseline rather than just relatively to peers would give a fuller picture.

Yeah, so you say 'sorry pauper, but you can only afford a two-star product'? Works for me...

I also think that if star ratings are mainained it would be good to see a more detailed breakdown into things like DVD upscaling, BluRay picture, film sound, music sound, and so on for player for example, so people can really see the individual bits they're intrested in.

In which case, just a page full of stars and no words to read?

 

[Anonymous]

Much navel-gazing. I think that reviews are generally a very good starting point, and of course it's the opinion of the purchaser that ultimately matters. But to suggest that reviewers would reach wildly different conclusions about the same piece of kit when sampled with any form of methodology seems far-fetched.

 

[hammill]

>

I also think that if star ratings are mainained it would be good to see a more detailed breakdown into things like DVD upscaling, BluRay picture, film sound, music sound, and so on for player for example, so people can really see the individual bits they're intrested in.

In which case, just a page full of stars and no words to read?

Since you ask, yes it would be far more useful. I take two consumer magazines Which and What HiFi and the Which style is far more useful to me. Often I have bought items that do not have the highest Which score because I can see that the area that has made the product top scoring is of little importance to me. In the HiFi world, an example might be a blu-ray player that gets more stars (or better, points) because of good analogue performance. That is of no interest to me but I cannot easily seperate out this information. Once you have read a few thousand reviews, it is no longer of any interest how the writer trys to make a desperately dull piece of prose exciting, you just want the facts. This is probably why one trip to the "reading room" is enough for me to read the whole magazine. The way Which reviews are formulated enable me to 1. Choose the product that best suits my needs, not necessarily the highest rated 2. If a product is cheap in the sales, decide whether a previouly mid rated product is now worth buying due to the points based evaluation system. 3 Decide if a very expensive product is worth buying compared with a cheaper product as the ratings apply to all (in What HiFi I cannot tell if there is only a slight difference between a £100 and a £500 blu-ray player).