Ring radiator HF drivers. Frequency response -1.5 @ 48 – 23kHz, with the tweeter going smooth as high as 35kHz. Birch plywood cabinets, unlike the cheap MDF in my LSR305.
They are passive with their own crossovers and can be bypassed for active biamping with Crown power amps. With a matching active JBL sub these should rock, especially the 8" ones.
They are passive with their own crossovers and can be bypassed for active biamping with Crown power amps. With a matching active JBL sub these should rock, especially the 8" ones.
Electro
Well-known member
Electro
Well-known member
steve_1979 said:
A blind test against speakers that don't have 15" drivers. I bet you would not be able to identify which one was suffering from cone break-up.
Again, you say "All 15" drivers go into cone breakup at around 200 hz"
That's just you making things up again. You have no evidence to back it up.
How many speakers have you actually auditioned properly with 15" drivers?
If you look at the frequency response of any and every speaker driver you will see that it has a ragged frequency response if no smoothing is applied. That applies to the drivers in your speakers too.
Having a ragged, unsmoothed, frequency response tell you absolutely nothing about whether the driver is breaking up or not.
Listening to them will tell you if there audible break up.
Please go and do some proper listening tests instead of making things up.
Andrewjvt said:
Andrew, of those 2 options I'd go for the 100's.
The only time I've heard subs working passably well has been when there's been 2 of them, placed directly under the main speakers.
That is based on the context of this thread where size, looks, budget and room size are not an issue.
If they were then the 40's might be a better option.
I personally wouldn't have ATC 100's as I prefer speakers that sound alive at low volume, that have the most realistic sounding bass possible, that have the most natural sounding vocals (which comes down to the amplification too). What ATC's do offer is an uber hi-fi sound. Like a top of the range Linn Naim system from the 1980's, except better. Which is why I can understand why many ATC owners love their speakers.
Steve, please describe what cone break-up sounds like on 15" woofers when they are crossed over above 200 hz.
steve_1979
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
You have totally missed the point of what a blind test is used for. They are used to check if you can hear a difference, any difference at all, between two things. If you compare two different speakers in a blind test as you suggest you would easily be able to tell them apart. This is what a blind test will tell you and it would be a pointless test.
What do you think a blind test is used for? Based on you previous two comments you don't seem to understand why and when a blind test should used.
lindsayt said:
Just look at the frequency responce graphs for any 15" driver. They all start breaking up at around 200Hz or less.
lindsayt said:
Yes it does.
lindsayt said:
You assume that I haven't heard 15" woofers but you're wrong. You accuse me of making things up but again you are wrong (and it's rather rude too considering you have no idea what speakers I've heard in the past or what I know about them).
We all know you like your old fashioned wardrobe sized speakers. Good for you. I'm glad you're happy with them but there's no need to be so defencive.
FYI I have heard many speakers with 15" bass drivers. These include three-way modern active studio monitors, old fashioned two-way Tannoy 'wardrobe style speakers' and many two and three-way PA type speakers and I can hear the cone breakup on 15" bass drivers if they have a very high a crossover.
To be fair the 15" two-way speakers do usually still sound alright but the cone breakup is audible and there are better designs around (the three-way speakers with 15" drivers tend to sound much better than the two-way designs).
steve_1979
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
5.25", 6.5" and 8" drivers generally sound smoother, clearer and more detailed above 200Hz than what a 15" driver does.
That is of course unless you want to play music at extremely high SPL levels where the larger driver has the advantage. But these volume levels are usually much louder than what people listen to in their homes.
15" two way speakers - think PA speakers.
Smoother? As in less dynamic? More shut-in?
I've compared my speakers with 15" drivers against my speakers with 8" inch drivers. Same room, same track one after the other with the 8" driver speakers at a slightly higher volume after initial listening tests (where they lost) to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The 15" driver speakers sounded more dynamic, more open, less shut in, a bit better focused, more detailed on male vocals, piano, tom drums (IE instruments with content above 200 hz and below the cross over frequency of the 15" driver).
How do you explain my listening test contradicting your statement about smoothness, detail, clarity?
Steve, all these 15" speakers you've heard, how many have you heard in an A/B demo against a speaker with smaller drivers? How do you know that the deficiencies you claim to have heard weren't down to the recording, the source component, the amplification, the room, the speaker positioning, your listening position, your mindset at the time?
I've compared my speakers with 15" drivers against my speakers with 8" inch drivers. Same room, same track one after the other with the 8" driver speakers at a slightly higher volume after initial listening tests (where they lost) to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The 15" driver speakers sounded more dynamic, more open, less shut in, a bit better focused, more detailed on male vocals, piano, tom drums (IE instruments with content above 200 hz and below the cross over frequency of the 15" driver).
How do you explain my listening test contradicting your statement about smoothness, detail, clarity?
Steve, all these 15" speakers you've heard, how many have you heard in an A/B demo against a speaker with smaller drivers? How do you know that the deficiencies you claim to have heard weren't down to the recording, the source component, the amplification, the room, the speaker positioning, your listening position, your mindset at the time?
steve_1979 said:
I will tell you why I suggested a blind test for you.
If we got together and arranged a sighted test between 15" speakers and speakers with smaller drivers, you are so brainwashed with AVI marketing balderdash that there's too high a chance that you would declare the smaller speakers better - whether they actually were or weren't. There's too high a chance that you would state a preference for whichever speaker resembled AVI actives the most.
With a blind test, you wouldn't know for sure if you were being hoodwinked or not. For example you could be played the same speaker twice in a blind test and then if you declared A better than B you'd look a fool.
A blind test might help to keep your stated opinion more "honest".
There are people that inhabit hi-fi forums whose opinion I would trust if it were based on a sighted demo. You are not one of them.
Vladimir said:steve_1979 said:
You are blasting music with 96dB at 200Hz before you get that small ridge. Shouldn't be an issue that would spoil your listening or using the speaker professionally. When everything implemented in a full active setup you get a listening window that is iron flat. I have no doubt JBL can make a perfect prototype. The real issue is can it be made in mass production for realistic prices. This is where all compromises happen.
Here is one of the best 15" drivers Eminence makes, the DEFINIMAX 4015LF. The graph has a lot of smoothing compared to the JBL one, but it is clear that the breakup mode starts at 400Hz and goes haywire onward. So effectively this is a 50Hz-400Hz driver.
Eminence Kappa Lite 3015 is better behaved above 400Hz, but it has that breakup at the same freq.
steve_1979 said:
Correct.
steve_1979 said:
PA = Public Announcement and Sound Reinforcement where details are compromised for the sake of robustness and very high SPL.
Domestic hifi aims at realistic detail, but SPL is compromised, or should I say scaled down.
The JBL M2's are expensive main studio monitors and have to come close to both realistic details at realistic SPL levels.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
I agree that most hifi speakers and amps are compromised in terms of their dynamic range. Most just can't go loud enough to properly reproduce the dynamic peaks in music even when played at reasonable volume levels.
But the JBL M2 takes this to another level. M2 is rated at 123dB. That is seriously blummin' loud! That's much louder than your ears could physically could cope with in a domestic sized living room. That's much louder than they need to be for home use (although I can see why these SPL levels can be useful in a large studio).
steve_1979
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
Can I ask 2 further questions:
What size room would you go over to 100s and what size room would you stick with 40s?
and also
As you have large drivers:
May I ask what size room you have?
Thanks
Andrew
steve_1979
Well-known member
Vladimir said:Here is one of the best 15" drivers Eminence makes, the DEFINIMAX 4015LF. The graph has a lot of smoothing compared to the JBL one, but it is clear that the breakup mode starts at 400Hz and goes haywire onward. So effectively this is a 50Hz-400Hz driver.
Thanks for posting those. Unfortunately it's hard to tell anything much useful from these graphs because there's been so much smoothing applied to it. It does look like it probably starts breaking up at around 200Hz but due to the very excessive amount of smoothing applied any small wiggles between 200Hz to 350Hz are too well hidden to see clearly.
Vladimir said:Eminence Kappa Lite 3015 is better behaved above 400Hz, but it has that breakup at the same freq.
The same as above applies with this one too but this driver is less well behaved than the one above once it goes into cone breakup.
The classic 15 inch bass and compression driver system derives from systems built in the 1930s for the cinema. Home hi-fi, as we know it, did not exist until after WW2.
This is a huge subject, but the advent of electric instruments in the late 50s required a more powerful speaker for recording studios, so many studios used the Altec A7 theatre system as a studio monitor.
Few of the theatre systems, even the compact 604 based setup, were ideal, which lead to the production of the JBL 4320, the first purpose built studio monitor. This design used (possibly) the finest 15 inch driver ever built, the 2215, running to 800Hz, the rest of the range was covered by the 2420 compression driver with a short conical horn.
The M2 is a direct descendant of this design, the criteria has swung away from the more complex 3 and 4 way systems and back to the classic 2 way, with all of it's dynamic 'purity'. I have not heard the M2s but I have a pretty good idea of how they will sound.
Trust me on this, most of you will not like them.
This is a huge subject, but the advent of electric instruments in the late 50s required a more powerful speaker for recording studios, so many studios used the Altec A7 theatre system as a studio monitor.
Few of the theatre systems, even the compact 604 based setup, were ideal, which lead to the production of the JBL 4320, the first purpose built studio monitor. This design used (possibly) the finest 15 inch driver ever built, the 2215, running to 800Hz, the rest of the range was covered by the 2420 compression driver with a short conical horn.
The M2 is a direct descendant of this design, the criteria has swung away from the more complex 3 and 4 way systems and back to the classic 2 way, with all of it's dynamic 'purity'. I have not heard the M2s but I have a pretty good idea of how they will sound.
Trust me on this, most of you will not like them.
davedotco said:
Can you explain in a little more detail why people would not like them?
I used to to have PA with horn and 12 inch mids with 15 inch bass bins and i loved the sound. I never even gave any thought of pa and hifi etc if you know what i mean
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