if.......

[Ajani]

For a sense of scale, next to some ATCs (I believe the SCM50):

 

[Vladimir]

I owned Cerwin-Vega AT12 in my student days and the dynamics are very appealing, but there is too much box resonance, hole in the midrange and all bass is monobass. Not ideal for well recorded and produced instruments and vocals. I'm not sure Cerwins can fit these shoes.

 

[davedotco]

This discussion has been focused on american components for a variety of reasons, it is impossible to overstate how important the motion picture industry was in the developement of every kind of musical playback system.

The US market was huge, in the 30s it was an order of magnitude bigger than the whole of the rest of the world put together, so was the driving force in all things audio.

In the 50s as home hi-fi started to become established, the big, powerful american systems discussed above were way to big and expensive for normal british homes, but smaller less expensive options were available, take a look at these...

http://www.voxshowroom.com/uk/amp/midaxcatalog.html

These were still rather big and expensive for the uk, the most popular speakers of the time being variations on this...

 

[Blacksabbath25]

This discussion has been focused on american components for a variety of reasons, it is impossible to overstate how important the motion picture industry was in the developement of every kind of musical playback system.

The US market was huge, in the 30s it was an order of magnitude bigger than the whole of the rest of the world put together, so was the driving force in all things audio.

In the 50s as home hi-fi started to become established, the big, powerful american systems discussed above were way to big and expensive for normal british homes, but smaller less expensive options were available, take a look at these...

http://www.voxshowroom.com/uk/amp/midaxcatalog.html

These were still rather big and expensive for the uk, the most popular speakers of the time being variations on this...

i looked at secondhand myself but the very old big JBLs only have a max of 30-50 watts but the american ones are a lot more powerful then the UK ones are but buying secondhand you are getting a lot of speaker for the money which this is what i would do as you can buy some cheap and do them up

 

[Blacksabbath25]

For good old school dynamics at a much more reasonable price I'd opt for the Cerwin Vega XLS215:

very nice i would be happy to have them sit in my house and i bet metal music would sound nise on them too

 

[Andrewjvt]

Very interesting posts I have been reading them all you do not seem to see meany speaker makers make big speakers with big drivers in them this days I used to have some big pioneer speakers back in the early 1990s but they used to be a bit of a handful with the bass I had 4 of this speakers side by side like a wall back when I was young and stupid and Jamo used to make some big speakers too what I remember . Anyway nise to see a good post better then talking about bloody speaker cables !

Cable threads still going. Ive changed the way i look at speaker design now and also the way i look at speaker manufacturers now also but seems i cant play music now i am missing my old r700s

so what are you thinking about going for then ? The JBL M2s are massive and the price £7000 your need some room for them . Anyway I am more taking a back seat on this as I do not no much about big speakers a specially bin's , horns but would like to know what the horns do in a big speaker and what there purpose is

Ill be looking at anything jbl very closely. Btw those m2 look great. Id like to hear them and i might to see what other older products i could get thats close maybe

Watch out for the JBL Synthesis 1400 Array.

So while I'm suspicious of horn-loaded designs, I'm not surprised that the Synthesis 1400 Array BG offers both superb speaker engineering and superb measured performance. I keep returning to that remarkably flat and even in-room response: Good grief!—John Atkinson

A more contemporary layout is the JBL Synthesis LS80. But I'd rather have the JBL Model 4429 or 4344M or 4365 or... *wacko*

they look reallt good - im gonna look out for some of ebay even if i still have atc - can be a 2nd pair - never know may end up being an jbl fan - they look ace - those do

 

[davedotco]

This discussion has been focused on american components for a variety of reasons, it is impossible to overstate how important the motion picture industry was in the developement of every kind of musical playback system.

The US market was huge, in the 30s it was an order of magnitude bigger than the whole of the rest of the world put together, so was the driving force in all things audio.

In the 50s as home hi-fi started to become established, the big, powerful american systems discussed above were way to big and expensive for normal british homes, but smaller less expensive options were available, take a look at these...

http://www.voxshowroom.com/uk/amp/midaxcatalog.html

These were still rather big and expensive for the uk, the most popular speakers of the time being variations on this...

i looked at secondhand myself but the very old big JBLs only have a max of 30-50 watts but the american ones are a lot more powerful then the UK ones are but buying secondhand you are getting a lot of speaker for the money which this is what i would do as you can buy some cheap and do them up

Errr, they are the same product.

Some of the cheaper hi-fi products were assembled in europe using locally sourced cabinets but the drive units were all US built.

The premium product, the models discussed above, were all us built.

A word on power handling.

Power for specific JBL drive units were carefully measured using sine waves and band limited pink noise and are pretty conservative. Since most units are very sensitive, huge power is not required for high output levels.

In the mid 1970s JBL had three 15in ectended range drivers in the catalogue.

The D130 was an extended range speaker designed for large music playback systems, originally used 'full range' the advent of LP records with their improved high frequencies meant that it was later used with a tweeter. Power handling was given as 50 watts continuous, up from the original 25 watts.

A professional version was produced optimised for the large front loaded bass horns of the day, this had a 100 watt continuous rating.

There was also the famous K130, musical instrument driver used for electric guitar etc. Power handling was 150 watts continuous.

The most interesting thing about these models, apart from the paint job and lable, they were all exactly the same speaker...!

 

[Blacksabbath25]

This discussion has been focused on american components for a variety of reasons, it is impossible to overstate how important the motion picture industry was in the developement of every kind of musical playback system.

The US market was huge, in the 30s it was an order of magnitude bigger than the whole of the rest of the world put together, so was the driving force in all things audio.

In the 50s as home hi-fi started to become established, the big, powerful american systems discussed above were way to big and expensive for normal british homes, but smaller less expensive options were available, take a look at these...

http://www.voxshowroom.com/uk/amp/midaxcatalog.html

These were still rather big and expensive for the uk, the most popular speakers of the time being variations on this...

i looked at secondhand myself but the very old big JBLs only have a max of 30-50 watts but the american ones are a lot more powerful then the UK ones are but buying secondhand you are getting a lot of speaker for the money which this is what i would do as you can buy some cheap and do them up

Errr, they are the same product.

Some of the cheaper hi-fi products were assembled in europe using locally sourced cabinets but the drive units were all US built.

The premium product, the models discussed above, were all us built.

A word on power handling.

Power for specific JBL drive units were carefully measured using sine waves and band limited pink noise and are pretty conservative. Since most units are very sensitive, huge power is not required for high output levels.

In the mid 1970s JBL had three 15in ectended range drivers in the catalogue.

The D130 was an extended range speaker designed for large music playback systems, originally used 'full range' the advent of LP records with their improved high frequencies meant that it was later used with a tweeter. Power handling was given as 50 watts continuous, up from the original 25 watts.

A professional version was produced optimised for the large front loaded bass horns of the day, this had a 100 watt continuous rating.

There was also the famous K130, musical instrument driver used for electric guitar etc. Power handling was 150 watts continuous.

The most interesting thing about these models, apart from the paint job and lable, they were all exactly the same speaker...!

i was looking at the JBLs 4733 they are rated at 1600 watts handling they are for £1000 secondhand so why are this more powerful then the older models and to get this big speakers working right i take it you would have to buy 2 crown amps to drive them ? or could i run them with my abrahamsen if i wanted too

 

[davedotco]

This discussion has been focused on american components for a variety of reasons, it is impossible to overstate how important the motion picture industry was in the developement of every kind of musical playback system.

The US market was huge, in the 30s it was an order of magnitude bigger than the whole of the rest of the world put together, so was the driving force in all things audio.

In the 50s as home hi-fi started to become established, the big, powerful american systems discussed above were way to big and expensive for normal british homes, but smaller less expensive options were available, take a look at these...

http://www.voxshowroom.com/uk/amp/midaxcatalog.html

These were still rather big and expensive for the uk, the most popular speakers of the time being variations on this...

i looked at secondhand myself but the very old big JBLs only have a max of 30-50 watts but the american ones are a lot more powerful then the UK ones are but buying secondhand you are getting a lot of speaker for the money which this is what i would do as you can buy some cheap and do them up

Errr, they are the same product.

Some of the cheaper hi-fi products were assembled in europe using locally sourced cabinets but the drive units were all US built.

The premium product, the models discussed above, were all us built.

A word on power handling.

Power for specific JBL drive units were carefully measured using sine waves and band limited pink noise and are pretty conservative. Since most units are very sensitive, huge power is not required for high output levels.

In the mid 1970s JBL had three 15in ectended range drivers in the catalogue.

The D130 was an extended range speaker designed for large music playback systems, originally used 'full range' the advent of LP records with their improved high frequencies meant that it was later used with a tweeter. Power handling was given as 50 watts continuous, up from the original 25 watts.

A professional version was produced optimised for the large front loaded bass horns of the day, this had a 100 watt continuous rating.

There was also the famous K130, musical instrument driver used for electric guitar etc. Power handling was 150 watts continuous.

The most interesting thing about these models, apart from the paint job and lable, they were all exactly the same speaker...!

i was looking at the JBLs 4733 they are rated at 1600 watts handling they are for £1000 secondhand so why are this more powerful then the older models and to get this big speakers working right i take it you would have to buy 2 crown amps to drive them ? or could i run them with my abrahamsen if i wanted too

The 4733 are PA/sound reinforcement speakers. They have a rating of 1200 watts 'pink noise' which is a simple, repeatable method for simulating normal program material.

Like all such systems, permisable harmonic distortion, compression and thermal effects are at a higher level than, say, a studio monitor or hi-fi speaker system.

Because of these issues, probably not the nicest speakers for home use.

 

[Ajani]

I owned Cerwin-Vega AT12 in my student days and the dynamics are very appealing, but there is too much box resonance, hole in the midrange and all bass is monobass. Not ideal for well recorded and produced instruments and vocals. I'm not sure Cerwins can fit these shoes.

I wouldn't judge the XLS 215 by AT12 standards. The XLS 215 have received some excellent reviews from users and from HiFi Mags that normally woudn't even look at anything with a Cerwin Vega badge on it.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/cerwinvega_cls215.htm

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tested-cerwin-vega-cls-215-loudspeaker/

 

[Vladimir]

Imagine how much hiphop can Thompson play on this subwoofer. Holy cow!

 

[Vladimir]

I would just add that there was a series preceding the current Synthesis range with cabinets built for JBL in Denmark. Those are really superb speakers, but require gobs of power.

A hidden gem from the 90's is Greg Timbers' JBL XPL series. Very sought after and the word on the street is very very impressive sounding. Dome midrange from titanium.

(let's not forget the legendary JBL 250Ti)

 

[davedotco]

I would just add that there was a series preceding the current Synthesis range with cabinets built for JBL in Denmark. Those are really superb speakers, but require gobs of power.

A hidden gem from the 90's is Greg Timbers' JBL XPL series. Very sought after and the word on the street is very very impressive sounding. Dome midrange from titanium.

(let's not forget the legendary JBL 250Ti)

After my time.

JBL went through something of a slump in the 80s and 90s.

The 4 way studio monitors (43xx and 44xx models) were not successful, even the legendary 4350 did not sell in serious numbers and hi-fi wise, they were taking a hammering.

I never had much time for their cone and dome models so really did not spend much time on them. These were some of the worst years for JBL, the 'corporatisation' of the brand led to a failure to respond to rapid change in all market sectors and it is only in recent years that their reputation for quality product has made a comeback.

The XPL series were a case in point, generally mediocre product with a 'me too' design brief, the dome midrange was hopeless, little more than a compression driver diaphragm used as a direct radiator, not good.

They were desperate for business, even going so far as to extend the 1990s L series to include an 'L100' model specifically for the european market.

'Knock off' product is bad enough but when it is the original company doing the 'knock offs', it really does say it all.

 

[steve_1979]

None of those old JBL's don't do anything for me at all. The new M2 speakers on the other hand look like some of the coolest speakers in the world IMO.

I can't think of any reason why I would ever need speakers that go to 123dB but if I had the money I'd still be tempted to get some. Just because.

 

[Vladimir]

Chin up Dave, it's not that bad. A 40kg speaker with their best woofer of that time and new custom titanium drivers surely has something to offer for domestic hi-fi? The 90's for Hi-Fi were poo altogether. Good that JBL went back to its roots.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Chin up Dave, it's not that bad. A 40kg speaker with their best woofer of that time and new custom titanium drivers surely has something to offer for domestic hi-fi? The 90's for Hi-Fi were poo altogether. Good that JBL went back to its roots.

very nise i bet they got a big price tag plus you would have to buy a sack barrow to move them *wacko*

 

[tonky]

Did you ever come across the JBL 20Ti ? A bookshelf speaker from the late 1980s - a book shelf ported design with an overdamped bass. What did you think of them?

cheers tonky

 

[steve_1979]

I take that last comment of mine back.

This is the coolest looking speaker ever.

 

[davedotco]

Premium quality product has always been decent, some is exceptional but their attempts at more mass market product has done little for me. The return to 'form' has coincided with a return to 'bin and horn' designs, no surprise really.

What does surprise me is the relatively low cost, your '305s for instance, or the bigger '308s at just £300, even the M2s are not that expensive when you see what you get for the money.

As a point of reference, the LSR308 at £300 are the same price as the compact 4310, in 1975...!

 

[Vladimir]

Premium quality product has always been decent, some is exceptional but their attempts at more mass market product has done little for me. The return to 'form' has coincided with a return to 'bin and horn' designs, no surprise really.

What does surprise me is the relatively low cost, your '305s for instance, or the bigger '308s at just £300, even the M2s are not that expensive when you see what you get for the money.

As a point of reference, the LSR308 at £300 are the same price as the compact 4310, in 1975...!

4 decades of Harman + McGill Uni + NRC R&D plus all the glory years experience before is coming to fruition. I decided to taste the results despite the scarce budget I allow myself for hifi while working on the house. And it tastes damn good.

 

[davedotco]

Did you ever come across the JBL 20Ti ? A bookshelf speaker from the late 1980s - a book shelf ported design with an overdamped bass. What did you think of them?

cheers tonky

No, thats a new one on me.

The L20T, L40T etc were a fairly mediocre range from the late 80s early 90s though they do have some fans. As were typical of JBLs cheaper 'cone and dome' model the strength was in the bass, the dome tweeters were not well developed and the integration with the bass unit poor. The crossovers were very unsophisticated and modifications and after market options were relatively common.

As noted above, sales of this range were quite poor, even resurecting the L100 name did not work.

There was a pro version, the 4406, modest quality at best.

 

[tonky]

I bought them (late 80s) on the strength of an excellent review in HiFi Answers (or some such similar magazine - plenty of them around that time) . Cost about 275£ then. I found them very clear and spacious sounding speakers. The bass was well defined but somewhat overdamped. I made a Wilmslow audio sub woofer which was driven by my cyrus 2 amp and then crossed over to the JBLs via the sub.

Sounded much better then - but overall they still sounded a little too forward (mainly due to the cyrus 2 I think.) Still have then lying around somewhere - was being used by one of my daughters for a while.

Much prefer the epos es14 speakers I now use.

cheers tonky

 

[lindsayt]

i was looking at the JBLs 4733 they are rated at 1600 watts handling they are for £1000 secondhand so why are this more powerful then the older models and to get this big speakers working right i take it you would have to buy 2 crown amps to drive them ? or could i run them with my abrahamsen if i wanted too

In the world of high end, world class sound quality, huge, possibly ugly speakers - which is the whole premise of this thread power handling has nothing to do with sound quality.

Many of the very best sounding speakers in this genre are high efficiency to very high efficiency.

IE 96 to 105 dbs/2.83v/1 metre.

At those sort of efficiencies 50 watts gives the same loudness as 500 to 5000 watts into an 86 db efficient speaker.

As an added bonus these high efficiencies take amplifier power out of the equation - and allow the use of SET amplifiers.

Your Abrahamsen would be fine with speakers like the JBL 4733's. My 2 watt SET would be fine with them too (with the right output transformers).

 

[Blacksabbath25]

i was looking at the JBLs 4733 they are rated at 1600 watts handling they are for £1000 secondhand so why are this more powerful then the older models and to get this big speakers working right i take it you would have to buy 2 crown amps to drive them ? or could i run them with my abrahamsen if i wanted too

In the world of high end, world class sound quality, huge, possibly ugly speakers - which is the whole premise of this thread power handling has nothing to do with sound quality.

Many of the very best sounding speakers in this genre are high efficiency to very high efficiency.

IE 96 to 105 dbs/2.83v/1 metre.

At those sort of efficiencies 50 watts gives the same loudness as 500 to 5000 watts into an 86 db efficient speaker.

As an added bonus these high efficiencies take amplifier power out of the equation - and allow the use of SET amplifiers.

Your Abrahamsen would be fine with speakers like the JBL 4733's. My 2 watt SET would be fine with them too (with the right output transformers).

the trouble is i would be fine with some real big speakers but my wife would kill me but if i had one of this new man cave hide away yes i would be buying some but tempted to buy some old ones just to try out

 

[Ajani]

None of those old JBL's don't do anything for me at all. The new M2 speakers on the other hand look like some of the coolest speakers in the world IMO.

I can't think of any reason why I would ever need speakers that go to 123dB but if I had the money I'd still be tempted to get some. Just because.

In addition to looking awesome, the M2 really is something special. It attracts the attention of both the old school dynamic speakers crowd and the measurements focused set. That is no easy trick to pull off.

And while I can't say that 20K USD is affordable (well, not with a straight face anyway) for a statement piece with amplification included, that's not nearly a bad price.