How many people on this forum listen to DSD?

[Jasonovich]

I am totally sold on DSD, in terms of tonality and natural smooth sound. I don't care about the science, I just love what I'm hearing. In the same way people enjoy listening to vinyl. You can argue there's a lot of wow and flutter on vinyl, all that distortion, lack of pitch, timing and instability and yet, there's something about vinyl that lures us in. Same with DSD, I can only conclude the sound is more natural, even though the noise level is excessive and this necessitates special filtering to remove this.

I listen mostly DSD512 format and God bless NativeDSD, where I am spoilt for choice. I think streaming needs to catch on, where at best you can find Flac at high resolution but it's still PCM. Most of the Chinese orientated DACs are laden with a wide variety of digital formats both DSD and PCM. Once we hit a point of saturation, streaming companies will start to exploit this, why won't they, it's profit! Imagine premium DSD512 download from Tidal £29.99 or MP3 £3.99.

I believe SACD failed because it came too late in the game and Sony's policy of closed shop probably deterred universal acceptance of the format but it's child DSD; is the cat that jumped out of the bag.
My personal opinion, DSD can't fail, MSQ is neigh on dead and PCM is the de'facto for anything digital. I think in 10 years time, DSD will become ubiquitous as PCM.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

View: https://youtu.be/v4Mj6oCfdog?si=fMcZj-nZMB2AWaiK

 

[podknocker]

I played a few SACDs when I had my Sony 4k Blu Ray player. They sounded great, but were going through a Quad Vena 2 amp at the time. Very warm and soft sounding. I would consider another SACD player and streaming amp combo, if it ever turned up. I don't think Spotify will release a HIFI tier any time soon. I still have all my CDs etc. There's also Blu Ray Audio discs, but has a limited catalogue, the same as DVD Audio. SACD is still alive, but I think its coffin will be ready within a few years. The Blu Ray Audio discs are so rare, but many are in very high quality surround:

Amazon.co.uk

 

[Jasonovich]

I played a few SACDs when I had my Sony 4k Blu Ray player. They sounded great, but were going through a Quad Vena 2 amp at the time. Very warm and soft sounding. I would consider another SACD player and streaming amp combo, if it ever turned up. I don't think Spotify will release a HIFI tier any time soon. I still have all my CDs etc. There's also Blu Ray Audio discs, but have a limited catalogue, the same as DVD Audio. SACD is still alive, but I think its coffin will be ready within a few years. The Blu Ray Audio discs are so rare, but many are in very high quality surround:

Amazon.co.uk

I hope SACDs will have the same revival as vinyl and this promotes the longevity of the format. Still, retrospectively, SACD has a big catalogue of albums and I suspect it'll be here for a while longer.

 

[Jasonovich]

If you want niche and unattainable Jason:

Digital eXtreme Definition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

DXD there's quite a bit of it on NativeDSD.
Is it DSD converted to PCM or is it the other way round?
I have many DSDs originated from DXD recordings, wait I think I answered my own question
It really is mind boggling the amount of digital formats available, it only succeeds in confusing the consumer.

 

[WayneKerr]

I've got about 10 SACDs and they do sound sweet but then so do most of my CDs. I've owned my current CDP about 3 years and I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I've played an LP on the turntable. The CDP comes pretty damned close to the sound of LP playback.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Wee Question, is it worth listening to sacd in plain old stereo, as far as I was led to believe it was a multichannel music format, just wondering as I believe my Sony 4k player can play sacd's and I might try and track one or two down if worth while.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

DSD will not become as ubiquitous as PCM for a number of reasons:

1) Most legacy equipment will not play DSD.

2) Most major studios use Pyramix, which is not compatible with DSD - and getting a studio to change its workflow is like trying to get a cat to stop being a duplicitous chaos-monger.

3) Bandwidth - DSD files are big, and this directly affects the most common way of accessing music - streaming. The big streaming services' idea of 'better' is not 'more quality' - it's 'less buffering' - and the cost of maintaining DSD at a level of consumption similar to PCM in terms of infrastructure upgrades will be astronomical. This is why Netflix streaming is still compressed.

4) Sure, there's equipment that can bring DSD into existing systems, but how many phones are DSD capable, and do the wider public want to add dongles etc to a portable device?

For whatever the 'quality' arguments are and whatever merit they may have (a different discussion), there are logistical, procedural and behavioral arguments that are often far more prevalent.

 

[manicm]

From a marketing point of view SACD and DSD failed long ago. There's a dearth of discs/downloads, as well as equipment besides the PC.

It's a niche thing like hires. Turntables and vinyl made a comeback. The CD and players are seeing a resurgence. Don't see any of that in DSD or SACD.

Hegel have launched a CD player that just plays Redbook and nothing else, and costs 5k, and if I could afford one I'd get this masterpiece

With DSD downloads there's also the validity factor - as there is for hires. When is hires not hires, or DSD not DSD.

 

[manicm]

DSD will not become as ubiquitous as PCM for a number of reasons:

1) Most legacy equipment will not play DSD.

2) Most major studios use Pyramix, which is not compatible with DSD - and getting a studio to change its workflow is like trying to get a cat to stop being a duplicitous chaos-monger.

3) Bandwidth - DSD files are big, and this directly affects the most common way of accessing music - streaming. The big streaming services' idea of 'better' is not 'more quality' - it's 'less buffering' - and the cost of maintaining DSD at a level of consumption similar to PCM in terms of infrastructure upgrades will be astronomical. This is why Netflix streaming is still compressed.

4) Sure, there's equipment that can bring DSD into existing systems, but how many phones are DSD capable, and do the wider public want to add dongles etc to a portable device?

For whatever the 'quality' arguments are and whatever merit they may have (a different discussion), there are logistical, procedural and behavioral arguments that are often far more prevalent.

In fact DSD will never become ubiquitous because true DSD recordings are very expensive to produce, moreso than PCM hires.

Also there's a dearth of SACD players, to date I only recall Marantz making one, and it's 3k.

I'm not interested in DSD downloads simply because I'm not interested in using the PC in the hi-fi.

 

[jjbomber]

I am totally sold on DSD, in terms of tonality and natural smooth sound. I don't care about the science, I just love what I'm hearing.

That's all that matters.

 

[Jasonovich]

Wee Question, is it worth listening to sacd in plain old stereo, as far as I was led to believe it was a multichannel music format, just wondering as I believe my Sony 4k player can play sacd's and I might try and track one or two down if worth while.

Sacd works great on 2 channels. Some recordings are specially recorded in 5:1 so it makes sense to set your AV to surround but if the Sacd is two channels, I would set the AV to stereo with multi channels. This will replicate the stereo signal to play on all speakers.
If you're bit of a purist, set it two channels only or direct for the large speakers 😊👍

 

[Al ears]

Wee Question, is it worth listening to sacd in plain old stereo, as far as I was led to believe it was a multichannel music format, just wondering as I believe my Sony 4k player can play sacd's and I might try and track one or two down if worth while.

Quite a few of my discs are stereo only SACD
The answer anyway is yes.....
Unfortunately they aren't cheap unless you are lucky enough to find some second hand ones.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Quite a few of my discs are stereo only SACD
The answer anyway is yes.....
Unfortunately they aren't cheap unless you are lucky enough to find some second hand ones.

Just had a quick look on the bay....I think I'll stick to the vinyl.🤣🤣🤣

 

[Revolutions]

I remember how good SACD sounded. Of course I was never able to a/b with a cd. The surround sound mixes made it a cool format.

MoFi still create sacd. I’ve definitely been sucked in by AAA vinyl remasters from them - honestly, do they sound better than a ‘standard’ remaster on 180g? Especially for an album recorded in the 60s.

For me, DSD is going to be worth it for recordings at certain studios. But I can promise you that plenty of top 10 albums had drums & guitars recorded in a dead room. I totally get chasing the highest quality playback of an orchestral recording from Abbey Road. At the same time for example, the amount of 80s drum sounds that are re-amped with gated digital reverb, I’m not sure what improvements people want to hear (ok, cymbals, acoustic guitar & piano are exceptions 🙂).

Don’t worry about my skepticism. It’s just that I saw overdubs for an Iron Maiden live album being recorded on a guitar plugged directly into a MacBook & re-amped later on. I’ve recorded plenty of guitar parts totally flat & effects added in post. Let’s not start on how much compression is used in studios to cheat when the sound isn’t playing ball, or how much is used in mastering.

 

[Jasonovich]

DSD will not become as ubiquitous as PCM for a number of reasons:

1) Most legacy equipment will not play DSD.

2) Most major studios use Pyramix, which is not compatible with DSD - and getting a studio to change its workflow is like trying to get a cat to stop being a duplicitous chaos-monger.

3) Bandwidth - DSD files are big, and this directly affects the most common way of accessing music - streaming. The big streaming services' idea of 'better' is not 'more quality' - it's 'less buffering' 3)- and the cost of maintaining DSD at a level of consumption similar to PCM in terms of infrastructure upgrades will be astronomical. This is why Netflix streaming is still compressed.

4) Sure, there's equipment that can bring DSD into existing systems, but how many phones are DSD capable, and do the wider public want to add dongles etc to a portable device?

For whatever the 'quality' arguments are and whatever merit they may have (a different discussion), there are logistical, procedural and behavioral arguments that are often far more prevalent.

You make a really good case against DSD, and predicting an outcome is conjecture but your lengthy commentary deserves a response.

1)

Most legacy equipment will not play DSD.

Most DACs on the market are fully compatible with DSD. If it's legacy it's probably due for an upgrade.
2)

Most major studios use Pyramix, which is not compatible with DSD - and getting a studio to change its workflow is like trying to get a cat to stop being a duplicitous chaos-monger.

Yes I have heard the mention of Pyramix which was created for PCM.
NativeDSD have the equipment to do their own DSD record but this is just a spit in a big puddle and this hardly going to change dynamics of the recording studios.
I suspect you are better placed than I am, and I know you got that ace card in your hand of poker but hear me out.
Yes I am rubbing against sentiment, the realities of business, only understands the language of profit.
However, as an accountant I know everything that is a limited asset depreciates and over a course of time when the value of your assets has been exhausted, there is a need to reinvest.
Corporate companies look at their liabilities and make their profit forecasts. How do we invigorate the market, where's the next treasure chest under the rainbow? Going by your logic the CD player would never have gotten off the ground because vinyl was so entrenched in the market?
Ten years from now is a long time, the market dynamics could easily change. If I shake my crystal ball, I see snow dropping down on the rooftops 😊
3)

directly affects the most common way of accessing music - streaming. The big streaming services' idea of 'better' is not 'more quality' - it's 'less buffering'

Yes, if we think about the validity of DSD streaming in most people's homes there will have to be some form of compression to minimise the buffering. Technology isn't static.
I have 1.3gb broadband, I can download a whole DSD512 album in under 10 minutes. Once gigabyte broadband becomes the norm and this isn't far fetch because under the new government housing regulations, all newly built homes must be installed with gb broadband.

4)

) Sure, there's equipment that can bring DSD into existing systems, but how many phones are DSD capable, and do the wider public want to add dongles etc to a portable device?

I have software on my mobile that plays DSD64. In fairness I rarely listen to music on my mobile, it just sucks it dry.
I prefer using my DAP, not only does it provide better quality but it also pays DSD upwards to DSD512.
There are arguements for and against, debate won't change the outcome. Despite my optimism and with no solid grounding, I do feel there would be difficult challenges ahead if DSD were to succeed. As you rightly alluded in your comments, if it is risk averse. If it is not ubiquitous, it will still have a place but would probably serve as a niche, very much what is happening with the vinyl market.

 

[Jasonovich]

In fact DSD will never become ubiquitous because true DSD recordings are very expensive to produce, moreso than PCM hires.

Also there's a dearth of SACD players, to date I only recall Marantz making one, and it's 3k.

I'm not interested in DSD downloads simply because I'm not interested in using the PC in the hi-fi.

I really love these debates!
You don't need a PC or Sacd player. There are quite a few digital transport on the market, some come with cd loading trays. The one I'm using comes without and far better quality than using my PC but most importantly, some DAC streamers, can be off the grid networked, just plug in your usb or external ssd hard disk and your DAC streamer becomes a media player.
The WiiM Pro plus will play your dsd downloads.

 

[Jasonovich]

Just had a quick look on the bay....I think I'll stick to the vinyl.🤣🤣🤣

Vinyl isn't cheap!!! 🤣

 

[Revolutions]

Anyone fancy replacing a laser & a tray motor?

Linn Unidisc 1.1 SACD going cheap (eBay)

 

[Jasonovich]

Anyone fancy replacing a laser & a tray motor?

Linn Unidisc 1.1 SACD going cheap (eBay)

£299 NICE!
If its modular it may entail a few screws and a bit of patience but how much will these parts cost to replace?

 

[Revolutions]

£299 NICE!
If its modular it may entail a few screws and a bit of patience but how much will these parts cost to replace?

If you don’t mind unbranded parts from China, probably £50 for the laser & £5 for the tray motor. I’m sure you could find Linn NOS- not sure what people would ask for those though.

 

[Jasonovich]

If you don’t mind unbranded parts from China, probably £50 for the laser & £5 for the tray motor. I’m sure you could find Linn NOS- not sure what people would ask for those though.

Might be worth checking on eBay if they have genuine Linn parts which have been reconditioned?

 

[podknocker]

Sony UBPX800M2 (Black)

Shop for Sony UBPX800M2 Black UHD Blu-ray Player with Richer Sounds for expert advice and lowest prices guaranteed

www.richersounds.com

This is all you need. It will play any audio and video format and codec, on any disc. It will handle anything you can think of.

https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/ubp-x800m2/specifications

 

[WayneKerr]

I really love these debates!

I'm glad someone does

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Sony UBPX800M2 (Black)

Shop for Sony UBPX800M2 Black UHD Blu-ray Player with Richer Sounds for expert advice and lowest prices guaranteed

www.richersounds.com

This is all you need. It will play any audio and video format and codec, on any disc. It will handle anything you can think of.

https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/ubp-x800m2/specifications

I have the mki version. also does all the same formats...the question is how well can it do them....are they the jack of all trades, master of none?

 

[podknocker]

I have the mki version.

I had the Mk1 and I paid £249 about 3 years ago. It was built like a tank and was totally silent. Netflix was so much quicker than on the Toshiba TV I had it connected to. I wish I'd kept it. It played EVERYTHING and had better picture and sound quality than all this hyped up nonsense costing thousands. People are paying a fortune for over-engineered HIFI bling. If you want to watch films and listen to music, this is all you need.