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the record spot:aliEnRIK:One down.............
Oh, the other reasons was not having to deal with dullards who haven't got the good grace to see another's perspective. Good riddance would be my take.
POT
KETTLE...........
Oh, the other reasons was not having to deal with dullards who haven't got the good grace to see another's perspective. Good riddance would be my take.
POT
KETTLE...........
OK, let's all take the aggression down a few notches, yes? Otherwise this thread is heading for the lock button.
idc
Well-known member
- Jan 2, 2008
- 1,142
- 117
- 19,370
aliEnRIK:
idc:I don't follow what you are saying now. Rules?
I dont need to explain to you what a placebo is and how people are affected by them now do I IDC?
No, but sorry, I am still not sure what you are trying to say. If you mean the argument that I have placebo'ed myself out of hearing a difference in cables then the answer is yes. Prior to finding out about blind testing, how cables are made and more of the science in signal transmission I was pro-cable. Now I am sure the differences I was hearing were in my head and had nothing to do with the cable itself.
So, do you go with placebo and hear a difference or do you you go with science and lose the placebo effect? I would say your wallet is one reson to decide which way you go.
Ultimately for me I am happier than ever with my hifi as I have now lost the upgrade urge and with it doubts about the quality of its sound. That is better than any placebo caused by a cable purchase.
idc:I don't follow what you are saying now. Rules?
I dont need to explain to you what a placebo is and how people are affected by them now do I IDC?
No, but sorry, I am still not sure what you are trying to say. If you mean the argument that I have placebo'ed myself out of hearing a difference in cables then the answer is yes. Prior to finding out about blind testing, how cables are made and more of the science in signal transmission I was pro-cable. Now I am sure the differences I was hearing were in my head and had nothing to do with the cable itself.
So, do you go with placebo and hear a difference or do you you go with science and lose the placebo effect? I would say your wallet is one reson to decide which way you go.
Ultimately for me I am happier than ever with my hifi as I have now lost the upgrade urge and with it doubts about the quality of its sound. That is better than any placebo caused by a cable purchase.
aliEnRIK:the record spot:aliEnRIK:One down.............
Oh, the other reasons was not having to deal with dullards who haven't got the good grace to see another's perspective. Good riddance would be my take.
POT
KETTLE...........
If only...your point would apply perfectly if I was speaking from a position of ignorance, yet, having tried out mains conditioners, various speaker cables, interconnects, I somehow think I've walked not just my own road, but yours too, no?
Oh, the other reasons was not having to deal with dullards who haven't got the good grace to see another's perspective. Good riddance would be my take.
POT
KETTLE...........
If only...your point would apply perfectly if I was speaking from a position of ignorance, yet, having tried out mains conditioners, various speaker cables, interconnects, I somehow think I've walked not just my own road, but yours too, no?
Good morning guys, just read a few posts.
I don't see what the problem is really.
When building your system it's all about enjoying the music/films.
I personally have found marked improvements with sorting out my mains supply, speaker cable and rebuilding the crossover units inside speakers with high end components.
Resulting in getting more pleasure in sitting down watching/listening to films, TV and music.
I would say keep an open mind, if something improves things , use it. If it doesn't send it back.
Simple!
I don't see what the problem is really.
When building your system it's all about enjoying the music/films.
I personally have found marked improvements with sorting out my mains supply, speaker cable and rebuilding the crossover units inside speakers with high end components.
Resulting in getting more pleasure in sitting down watching/listening to films, TV and music.
I would say keep an open mind, if something improves things , use it. If it doesn't send it back.
Simple!
the record spot:
If only...your point would apply perfectly if I was speaking from a position of ignorance, yet, having tried out mains conditioners, various speaker cables, interconnects, I somehow think I've walked not just my own road, but yours too, no?
Would you agree that there is the 'possibility' that my ears are better than yours?
Or are all ears 'exactly' the same? (ps - theyre not)
If only...your point would apply perfectly if I was speaking from a position of ignorance, yet, having tried out mains conditioners, various speaker cables, interconnects, I somehow think I've walked not just my own road, but yours too, no?
Would you agree that there is the 'possibility' that my ears are better than yours?
Or are all ears 'exactly' the same? (ps - theyre not)
idc:
No, but sorry, I am still not sure what you are trying to say. If you mean the argument that I have placebo'ed myself out of hearing a difference in cables then the answer is yes. Prior to finding out about blind testing, how cables are made and more of the science in signal transmission I was pro-cable. Now I am sure the differences I was hearing were in my head and had nothing to do with the cable itself.
So, do you go with placebo and hear a difference or do you you go with science and lose the placebo effect? I would say your wallet is one reson to decide which way you go.
Ultimately for me I am happier than ever with my hifi as I have now lost the upgrade urge and with it doubts about the quality of its sound. That is better than any placebo caused by a cable purchase.
Do you know of ANY device that can accurately measure everything that comes out of a cds outputs and therfore can accurately measure any differences once its gone down an interconnect? (Im talking about 'full spectrum detail' that would occur when 'music' is played. Not just a single signwave or suchlike)
If not them i'd say science isnt there yet (Take note that even chord dont know of any such device, and neither do I)
No, but sorry, I am still not sure what you are trying to say. If you mean the argument that I have placebo'ed myself out of hearing a difference in cables then the answer is yes. Prior to finding out about blind testing, how cables are made and more of the science in signal transmission I was pro-cable. Now I am sure the differences I was hearing were in my head and had nothing to do with the cable itself.
So, do you go with placebo and hear a difference or do you you go with science and lose the placebo effect? I would say your wallet is one reson to decide which way you go.
Ultimately for me I am happier than ever with my hifi as I have now lost the upgrade urge and with it doubts about the quality of its sound. That is better than any placebo caused by a cable purchase.
Do you know of ANY device that can accurately measure everything that comes out of a cds outputs and therfore can accurately measure any differences once its gone down an interconnect? (Im talking about 'full spectrum detail' that would occur when 'music' is played. Not just a single signwave or suchlike)
If not them i'd say science isnt there yet (Take note that even chord dont know of any such device, and neither do I)
aliEnRIK:idc:
Do you know of ANY device that can accurately measure everything that comes out of a cds outputs and therfore can accurately measure any differences once its gone down an interconnect? (Im talking about 'full spectrum detail' that would occur when 'music' is played. Not just a single signwave or suchlike)
If not them i'd say science isnt there yet (Take note that even chord dont know of any such device, and neither do I)
How about connecting a source and interconnect to a PC (via an excellent AD converter such as those made by Prism), and using a combination of spectrum analyser, VU, RMS and dynamic range meters?
Do you know of ANY device that can accurately measure everything that comes out of a cds outputs and therfore can accurately measure any differences once its gone down an interconnect? (Im talking about 'full spectrum detail' that would occur when 'music' is played. Not just a single signwave or suchlike)
If not them i'd say science isnt there yet (Take note that even chord dont know of any such device, and neither do I)
How about connecting a source and interconnect to a PC (via an excellent AD converter such as those made by Prism), and using a combination of spectrum analyser, VU, RMS and dynamic range meters?
aliEnRIK:the record spot:
If only...your point would apply perfectly if I was speaking from a position of ignorance, yet, having tried out mains conditioners, various speaker cables, interconnects, I somehow think I've walked not just my own road, but yours too, no?
Would you agree that there is the 'possibility' that my ears are better than yours?
Or are all ears 'exactly' the same? (ps - theyre not)
And I think I asked first?! Of course there is but it's redundant when you really think about it. You see I don't but into the golden rarefied claims either which is what you're effectively claiming while ignoring all of the constants in my own circumstances. Nothing else changed but 1m of wire and nothing changed as a result of that. End of story really.
If only...your point would apply perfectly if I was speaking from a position of ignorance, yet, having tried out mains conditioners, various speaker cables, interconnects, I somehow think I've walked not just my own road, but yours too, no?
Would you agree that there is the 'possibility' that my ears are better than yours?
Or are all ears 'exactly' the same? (ps - theyre not)
And I think I asked first?! Of course there is but it's redundant when you really think about it. You see I don't but into the golden rarefied claims either which is what you're effectively claiming while ignoring all of the constants in my own circumstances. Nothing else changed but 1m of wire and nothing changed as a result of that. End of story really.
the record spot: Of course there is but it's redundant when you really think about it. You see I don't but into the golden rarefied claims either which is what you're effectively claiming while ignoring all of the constants in my own circumstances. Nothing else changed but 1m of wire and nothing changed as a result of that. End of story really.
Unless its just you who cant hear those differences. Unless theres too much RFI/EMI going through your system for ANYONE to hear those differences. Unless the rest of your cabling is letting it down etc etc etc
End of your debate really..........
Unless its just you who cant hear those differences. Unless theres too much RFI/EMI going through your system for ANYONE to hear those differences. Unless the rest of your cabling is letting it down etc etc etc
End of your debate really..........
JohnnyV111:
How about connecting a source and interconnect to a PC (via an excellent AD converter such as those made by Prism), and using a combination of spectrum analyser, VU, RMS and dynamic range meters?
Putting it through ANY converter will almost certainly make the test null and void. Lets stick to reading true fullscale analogue without any conversions
How about connecting a source and interconnect to a PC (via an excellent AD converter such as those made by Prism), and using a combination of spectrum analyser, VU, RMS and dynamic range meters?
Putting it through ANY converter will almost certainly make the test null and void. Lets stick to reading true fullscale analogue without any conversions
aliEnRIK:JohnnyV111:
How about connecting a source and interconnect to a PC (via an excellent AD converter such as those made by Prism), and using a combination of spectrum analyser, VU, RMS and dynamic range meters?
Putting it through ANY converter will almost certainly make the test null and void. Lets stick to reading true fullscale analogue without any conversions
Why? (x2)
How about connecting a source and interconnect to a PC (via an excellent AD converter such as those made by Prism), and using a combination of spectrum analyser, VU, RMS and dynamic range meters?
Putting it through ANY converter will almost certainly make the test null and void. Lets stick to reading true fullscale analogue without any conversions
Why? (x2)
JohnnyV111:
Why? (x2)
I dont see how you could possibly convert analogue into digital without losing something in the process (And its that 'something' were trying to measure)
Anyways. Im not debating analogue to digital conversion. Im waiting for something that CAN measure analogue in all its glory
Why? (x2)
I dont see how you could possibly convert analogue into digital without losing something in the process (And its that 'something' were trying to measure)
Anyways. Im not debating analogue to digital conversion. Im waiting for something that CAN measure analogue in all its glory
aliEnRIK:JohnnyV111:
Why? (x2)
I dont see how you could possibly convert analogue into digital without losing something in the process (And its that 'something' were trying to measure)
Anyways. Im not debating analogue to digital conversion. Im waiting for something that CAN measure analogue in all its glory
When using a CD player as a source, analogue in all it's glory would be unlikely. Most of the CDs you listen to will have been through many converters - the high end ones are almost completely transparent and would not obscure actual differences made by interconnects.
Why? (x2)
I dont see how you could possibly convert analogue into digital without losing something in the process (And its that 'something' were trying to measure)
Anyways. Im not debating analogue to digital conversion. Im waiting for something that CAN measure analogue in all its glory
When using a CD player as a source, analogue in all it's glory would be unlikely. Most of the CDs you listen to will have been through many converters - the high end ones are almost completely transparent and would not obscure actual differences made by interconnects.
Just with regards to conversion (And this is as far as im going with the A to D conversion process) -
Vinyl is generally regarded as having better 'timing' than cds purely due to the loss of information you get with 16 bit. To measure the full spectrum analogue we would need something WAY better than 16 bit
To measure 16 bit without any jitter errors at all you need to get jitter below 100 picoseconds
I dont even believe 24 bit would allow ALL analogue to be converted and that needs a theoretical (as no one has achieved such a measurement yet) 0.5 ps
So even taking losses inbetween the A to D conversion process. Theres nothing available that can truly measure digital with the accuracy that we require even if the original conversion was perfect
So with regards to measuring everything that can possibly be measured within the 'laws of physics' boundaries 'accurately', id say were some way off yet
Vinyl is generally regarded as having better 'timing' than cds purely due to the loss of information you get with 16 bit. To measure the full spectrum analogue we would need something WAY better than 16 bit
To measure 16 bit without any jitter errors at all you need to get jitter below 100 picoseconds
I dont even believe 24 bit would allow ALL analogue to be converted and that needs a theoretical (as no one has achieved such a measurement yet) 0.5 ps
So even taking losses inbetween the A to D conversion process. Theres nothing available that can truly measure digital with the accuracy that we require even if the original conversion was perfect
So with regards to measuring everything that can possibly be measured within the 'laws of physics' boundaries 'accurately', id say were some way off yet
JohnnyV111:
When using a CD player as a source, analogue in all it's glory would be unlikely. Most of the CDs you listen to will have been through many converters - the high end ones are almost completely transparent and would not obscure actual differences made by interconnects.
I dont care about any conversions the actual cd and players have been through. All I want to do is measure the signal in all its glory between source output (cd player, dvd player, amp or whatever) and what differences there are after travelling down the cable we're measuring
When using a CD player as a source, analogue in all it's glory would be unlikely. Most of the CDs you listen to will have been through many converters - the high end ones are almost completely transparent and would not obscure actual differences made by interconnects.
I dont care about any conversions the actual cd and players have been through. All I want to do is measure the signal in all its glory between source output (cd player, dvd player, amp or whatever) and what differences there are after travelling down the cable we're measuring
aliEnRIK:
Just with regards to conversion (And this is as far as im going with the A to D conversion process) -
Vinyl is generally regarded as having better 'timing' than cds purely due to the loss of information you get with 16 bit. To measure the full spectrum analogue we would need something WAY better than 16 bit
To measure 16 bit without any jitter errors at all you need to get jitter below 100 picoseconds
I dont even believe 24 bit would allow ALL analogue to be converted and that needs a theoretical (as no one has achieved such a measurement yet) 0.5 ps
So even taking losses inbetween the A to D conversion process. Theres nothing available that can truly measure digital with the accuracy that we require even if the original conversion was perfect
So with regards to measuring everything that can possibly be measured within the 'laws of physics' boundaries 'accurately', id say were some way off yet
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
Just with regards to conversion (And this is as far as im going with the A to D conversion process) -
Vinyl is generally regarded as having better 'timing' than cds purely due to the loss of information you get with 16 bit. To measure the full spectrum analogue we would need something WAY better than 16 bit
To measure 16 bit without any jitter errors at all you need to get jitter below 100 picoseconds
I dont even believe 24 bit would allow ALL analogue to be converted and that needs a theoretical (as no one has achieved such a measurement yet) 0.5 ps
So even taking losses inbetween the A to D conversion process. Theres nothing available that can truly measure digital with the accuracy that we require even if the original conversion was perfect
So with regards to measuring everything that can possibly be measured within the 'laws of physics' boundaries 'accurately', id say were some way off yet
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
JohnnyV111:
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
Im not disputing any of that. All im saying is that to get 'true' 24 bit audio with zero errors is as yet impossible
Which again, has NOTHING to do with measuring the analogue signal.............
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
Im not disputing any of that. All im saying is that to get 'true' 24 bit audio with zero errors is as yet impossible
Which again, has NOTHING to do with measuring the analogue signal.............
aliEnRIK:Unless its just you who cant hear those differences. Unless theres too much RFI/EMI going through your system for ANYONE to hear those differences. Unless the rest of your cabling is letting it down etc etc etcEnd of your debate really..........
What? Ya think?!
You mean in London, Edinburgh, Fife...? In those locations? Why, is our UK mains quite so bad yet my stereo still sounds great? Not just my word for it, but friends who visit, family, they all enjoy music on it.
The rest of my cabling is "letting it down"? Not really, Roger Russell's view and explanation suited my needs down to the ground and, as I say, I have my own experience to draw on, not just some idea that came out of nothing that "I think this" based on zero audition. Point score by all means Rick, but - again and which you keep appearing to forget - I've used a Mains Conditioner (a BT MTU 500) but currently use a 6-way Masterplug (for practical reasons, the power socket is only a dual point), half a dozen interconnects (QED, Audioquestx2, Van den Hul, Monster and my current one), I've tried different speaker cable (Audioquest Type IV, 79 and 322 strand)...are you getting the drift here? There isn't much left, short of rewiring and asking the National Grid to do the same. And of course, I've satisfied myself that having done all that, I have what I have and am delighted with it.
Of course, the invitation to come up and have a listen is yours at any time with sufficient notice (to organise the family - weekends, hence, are better).
What? Ya think?!
You mean in London, Edinburgh, Fife...? In those locations? Why, is our UK mains quite so bad yet my stereo still sounds great? Not just my word for it, but friends who visit, family, they all enjoy music on it.
The rest of my cabling is "letting it down"? Not really, Roger Russell's view and explanation suited my needs down to the ground and, as I say, I have my own experience to draw on, not just some idea that came out of nothing that "I think this" based on zero audition. Point score by all means Rick, but - again and which you keep appearing to forget - I've used a Mains Conditioner (a BT MTU 500) but currently use a 6-way Masterplug (for practical reasons, the power socket is only a dual point), half a dozen interconnects (QED, Audioquestx2, Van den Hul, Monster and my current one), I've tried different speaker cable (Audioquest Type IV, 79 and 322 strand)...are you getting the drift here? There isn't much left, short of rewiring and asking the National Grid to do the same. And of course, I've satisfied myself that having done all that, I have what I have and am delighted with it.
Of course, the invitation to come up and have a listen is yours at any time with sufficient notice (to organise the family - weekends, hence, are better).
the record spot:aliEnRIK:Unless its just you who cant hear those differences. Unless theres too much RFI/EMI going through your system for ANYONE to hear those differences. Unless the rest of your cabling is letting it down etc etc etc
End of your debate really..........
What? Ya think?!
You mean in London, Edinburgh, Fife...? In those locations? Why, is our UK mains quite so bad yet my stereo still sounds great? Not just my word for it, but friends who visit, family, they all enjoy music on it.
The rest of my cabling is "letting it down"? Not really, Roger Russell's view and explanation suited my needs down to the ground and, as I say, I have my own experience to draw on, not just some idea that came out of nothing that "I think this" based on zero audition. Point score by all means Rick, but - again and which you keep appearing to forget - I've used a Mains Conditioner (a BT MTU 500) but currently use a 6-way Masterplug (for practical reasons, the power socket is only a dual point), half a dozen interconnects (QED, Audioquestx2, Van den Hul, Monster and my current one), I've tried different speaker cable (Audioquest Type IV, 79 and 322 strand)...are you getting the drift here? There isn't much left, short of rewiring and asking the National Grid to do the same. And of course, I've satisfied myself that having done all that, I have what I have and am delighted with it.
Of course, the invitation to come up and have a listen is yours at any time with sufficient notice (to organise the family - weekends, hence, are better).
Much obliged Spot. I was in Edinburgh a few weeks back, but my OH wouldnt have been best impressed if we had detoured for me to have a listen to your system. And im not disputing it sounds great. Im sure it does
End of your debate really..........
What? Ya think?!
You mean in London, Edinburgh, Fife...? In those locations? Why, is our UK mains quite so bad yet my stereo still sounds great? Not just my word for it, but friends who visit, family, they all enjoy music on it.
The rest of my cabling is "letting it down"? Not really, Roger Russell's view and explanation suited my needs down to the ground and, as I say, I have my own experience to draw on, not just some idea that came out of nothing that "I think this" based on zero audition. Point score by all means Rick, but - again and which you keep appearing to forget - I've used a Mains Conditioner (a BT MTU 500) but currently use a 6-way Masterplug (for practical reasons, the power socket is only a dual point), half a dozen interconnects (QED, Audioquestx2, Van den Hul, Monster and my current one), I've tried different speaker cable (Audioquest Type IV, 79 and 322 strand)...are you getting the drift here? There isn't much left, short of rewiring and asking the National Grid to do the same. And of course, I've satisfied myself that having done all that, I have what I have and am delighted with it.
Of course, the invitation to come up and have a listen is yours at any time with sufficient notice (to organise the family - weekends, hence, are better).
Much obliged Spot. I was in Edinburgh a few weeks back, but my OH wouldnt have been best impressed if we had detoured for me to have a listen to your system. And im not disputing it sounds great. Im sure it does
aliEnRIK:JohnnyV111:
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
Im not disputing any of that. All im saying is that to get 'true' 24 bit audio with zero errors is as yet impossible
Which again, has NOTHING to do with measuring the analogue signal.............
I am suggesting that the digital representation of an analogue signal made through high end equipment would be indistinguishably close to the original analogue signal, and would make accurate and detailed testing possible.
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
Im not disputing any of that. All im saying is that to get 'true' 24 bit audio with zero errors is as yet impossible
Which again, has NOTHING to do with measuring the analogue signal.............
I am suggesting that the digital representation of an analogue signal made through high end equipment would be indistinguishably close to the original analogue signal, and would make accurate and detailed testing possible.
JohnnyV111:aliEnRIK:JohnnyV111:
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
Im not disputing any of that. All im saying is that to get 'true' 24 bit audio with zero errors is as yet impossible
Which again, has NOTHING to do with measuring the analogue signal.............
I am suggesting that the digital representation of an analogue signal made through high end equipment would be indistinguishably close to the original analogue signal, and would make accurate and detailed testing possible.
It wouldnt be accurate (By accurate, I mean zero errors). But I suppose its possible that differences could be measured should they exist. Do you know of anyone thats done such a thing?
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.
Im not disputing any of that. All im saying is that to get 'true' 24 bit audio with zero errors is as yet impossible
Which again, has NOTHING to do with measuring the analogue signal.............
I am suggesting that the digital representation of an analogue signal made through high end equipment would be indistinguishably close to the original analogue signal, and would make accurate and detailed testing possible.
It wouldnt be accurate (By accurate, I mean zero errors). But I suppose its possible that differences could be measured should they exist. Do you know of anyone thats done such a thing?
idc
Well-known member
- Jan 2, 2008
- 1,142
- 117
- 19,370
Measuring the signal and then comparing is the alternative to blind testing. I am trying to get some info on such at the moment.
Re who, if any has the better hearing is of course pure speculation until that too is tested. However, Harman International have found using their own staff for blind testing, that experienced listeners do no better than any others.
Re who, if any has the better hearing is of course pure speculation until that too is tested. However, Harman International have found using their own staff for blind testing, that experienced listeners do no better than any others.
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