How long is the burn-in period?

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aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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brittondave:well, I can when I change from just copper to copper with silver. can I tell the difference from a cheap interconnect to a studio grade coaxial, yes it's like night and day. Can I tell the difference between the studio grade interconnect and something costing £500. No I can't

What exactly do you class as 'studio grade'?
 

Andrew Everard

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May 30, 2007
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aliEnRIK:[ What exactly do you class as 'studio grade'?

Trying so hard to remember which manufacturer describes some of its cables as 'studio grade'...
 

JohnnyV111

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May 31, 2010
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It is odd that several people acting independently have visited a technically orientated website, found and read an overtly technical forum thread, implied a degree of technical knowledge via a list of expensive electronic equipment sometimes accompanied by bullish claims, and then concluded with a statement denouncing technical theory and those with an interest in it as inadequate.
 

jase fox

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Apr 24, 2008
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Fahnsen:
jase fox:All these scientific tests are just a load of digits to me, i much prefer my eyes and ears to judge.

Then I take you also believe the world is flat. Because that's what your eyes tells you, and only the digits of science can disprove it...
Whos talking about the world being flat? My eyes and ears are my proof.
 

JohnnyV111

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May 31, 2010
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jase fox:Fahnsen:
jase fox:All these scientific tests are just a load of digits to me, i much prefer my eyes and ears to judge.

Then I take you also believe the world is flat. Because that's what your eyes tells you, and only the digits of science can disprove it...

Whos talking about the world being flat? My eyes and ears are my proof.

Please take the time to answer these questions. They are not rhetorical.

1/ What makes good ears?

2/ How far do you trust your own hearing?

3/ Does the gathering and analysis of data inhibit the evaluation and/or enjoyment of hi-fi components?

Anyone else's thoughts would also be most welcome.
 
T

the record spot

Guest
1/ Depending on your view, either evolution (takes ages) or God (6 days). Joking aside, the majority of us will hear a limited amount of equipment compared to a reviewer who's probably heard hundreds of bits of kit in thousands of combinations over the years. What makes good ears? Maybe an ability to recognise a difference between bits of gear and why it exists.

2/ For the purposes I have in mind when listening to music (enjoyment) I do fine, though my left ear lost some of its hearing after a virus a few years ago. Doesn't detract too greatly and my hearing's still pretty good. I trust it well enough to evaluate critically when I have to within the remit of "1/" above.

3/ Yes, or at least, it can when it becomes obsession and there's a ton of it around just now. Whether a difference is audible or "on paper" is a debate I've jumped ship from and I'm happy to be free of it. If one hears a difference with a £5 wire against a £500 one, fine. Consequently, my enjoyment soared when I ditched the accessories baggage and I put the investment in shaping the sound I wanted into the core components and not the connectors. Works for me and I fret less about "fine tuning" as the fine tuning's been done.
 

idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
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1 - practice

2 - I trust it and recently took a tests which finds it is normal for someone in their 40s.

3 - no, so long as you can also have times to just sit and listen and enjoy.
 

JohnnyV111

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May 31, 2010
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Thanks very much for taking the trouble to reply. It is a feature of this website that periodically people will refer to themselves as having superior ears to the ears of those disagreeing with them, and I was hoping we might get a glimpse into the reasoning behind this phenomenon. However, as all is silent from those prone to such claims, I can only guess that such beings might be owls, elephants, jackals or perhaps even deities...In any case, I'll offer my opinions...

1/ Healthy, clean, youthful.

2/ In the interests of this thread I took several online hearing tests. The results would only be of any use if you had some sort of serious problem - one test even reported that could hear up to 22khz - not bad for a 40 year old human. In any case, I seem to be healthy enough. How long it would take me to notice were my partner to mischievously swap the odd interconnect? I don't know...maybe never!

The way the brain processes information from the ears is vastly complex, and it will play incredible tricks on us. Many such tricks are exploited for our pleasure and convenience, such as harmonic exciters in the recording process, MP3s compressing huge amount of data, speakers seeming to throw sound forward and many, many more. Other tricks are less desirable, but we are all prone to them. The idea that we hear simply "what is there" is quite simply wrong.

3/ It is very rare that a lack of information would give a person an increased insight into a subject, and perhaps realistic expectations might increase their enjoyment...
 

aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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Went round to a girls house a year back. She was 20 years old (I'll call that healthy, clean and youthful)

She lived with her friend (Think she was 19)

We sat watching a dvd on her tv. Within 2 minutes I asked her if the 'line' on the tv did her head in

She asked 'what line'?

I had to physically get her out of her seat to show her the periodic line that went from top to bottom of the screen. She was shocked and said 'no one' had ever seen that before

I wonder if I just imagined that line now..................
 

JohnnyV111

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May 31, 2010
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aliEnRIK:
Went round to a girls house a year back. She was 20 years old (I'll call that healthy, clean and youthful)

She lived with her friend (Think she was 19)

We sat watching a dvd on her tv. Within 2 minutes I asked her if the 'line' on the tv did her head in

She asked 'what line'?

I had to physically get her out of her seat to show her the periodic line that went from top to bottom of the screen. She was shocked and said 'no one' had ever seen that before

I wonder if I just imagined that line now..................

Probably not - the girl seemed to have lacked observational skills. To what does this tale relate?
 

aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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JohnnyV111:
Probably not - the girl seemed to have lacked observational skills. To what does this tale relate?

That I DONT imagine what I see and hear
 

aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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JohnnyV111:And yet I can spot at least two imaginings or assumptions in your recollection.

And yet you just cant open YOUR eyes can you
 

SteveR750

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Mar 11, 2005
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back to the OP, I can definitely hear a change in speakers from new, every pair, inclduing cars, headphones, portable stuff, all improve after a few hours of listening. It'susually in the form of a a lesening of the harshness, and greater detail/resolution.

However, I have yet to hear the same effect to anything like the same level with electronics - my amp and CDP sound the same to me the day I bought them, despite Cyrus's instructions to the contrary. Roksan thoughtfully makes no such instruction.
 

aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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Cable burn in -

Its been scientifically proven that electrons when travelling through a conductor change direction over time. This is called quantum tunneling. To get around this problem scientists are trying to make a 'quantum wire'. A wire designed to allow a single electron through. Whlst this hasnt yet been achieved, its only a matter of time before its reality and cable burn in will cease to be a problem.

Its also been proven that electrons vibrate more at 'grain edges' within conductors. Once an electrical circuit is made the electrons orientate themselves to pass the grain as best they can. More importantly, once the electrical circuit is broken the electrons still vibrate less than BEFORE the electrical circuit was made.

One scientist has stated that electron direction change within conductors happens over months which in turn creates a miniscule change in capacitance, which in turn will change its sonic properties over time.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
You'd need to provide all your references here. The explanation of quantum tunnelling/wire seem at odds with many other definitions, as does the explanation of electron behaviour.
 

aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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Nah

My days of posting links on here are well and truly over

Further to that, I dont 'need' to do anything for anyone
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Then can I suggest you take a look at the wikipedia articles and their associated references? If you can't provide sources, then I'd have to say you've got most of what you said wrong.

Incidentally why I asked for sources was so I could check whether I'd misunderstood what I'd been reading - physics at the quantum level is a bit of a mind boggler.
 

idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
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That a change in something can be shown is possibly a red herring. Electrons and how they move in wire and potential changes over time does not have a definite link to audibility. To do that you need a blind test or do a recording of pre and post change, subtract one form the other and see if there is a difference which can be heard.Even then, you may be left with an atrefact that on its own is audible, but put it back into the music and it is lost in the sound.

We also know what is audible in terms of frequency and decibels. So if something measures and is found to be a change in frequency or decibel that is within hearing levels, then you can say it is audible. That also explains why some people can hear things others cannot as we have different hearing.

Outwith the above, to claim audibility of anything or to even suggest it, is wrong.
 

aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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idc:
That a change in something can be shown is possibly a red herring.

Thank you

We're now all in the realms of possibilty
 

idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
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The biggest problem for me and hifi 'scientific claims' is that the link between the claim and audibility is usually missing.
 

aliEnRIK

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Aug 27, 2008
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The biggest problem for me is when people dismiss EVERYTHING due to not having sufficient blind tests in front of them. And not even looking at the blind tests when they suggest there are changes (case in point the one that was posted that had the 2 believers get ALL the answers correct)
 

idc

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Jan 2, 2008
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Rick, have a look at this site clicky and you will find various blind tests. The results show no differences where cables are invloved (except over very big distances when 6 feet is compared to 100 feet plus for video cables). There are mixed results for kit such as CDPs and DACs. There is a clear difference in the one, but very big speaker test (97%) and finally there are clear differences with the likes of distortion and slight volume changes.

The two that you refer to are isolated tests, you need loads to actually find out what is random (which includes 100% and 0%) and what is actually significant.

I am not ignoring those positive tests, but they do need to viewed with the big picture to get an accurate result.
 

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