How long is the burn-in period?

[admin_exported]

Hi all,

last night I had the chance to setup my newly bought VDAC. As I think the source is the weak link of my system and relatively cheaper than to upgrade the amp / speakers.

I compared the VDAC to my cheap LG DVD player. The analog output of DVD goes to the amp, the optical output to VDAC and then connected to the amp. I did the comparison by A/B-ing it from the amplifier while i closed my eyes. I could not notice the difference. Does the VDAC need burn in period to sound (significantly) better? And if yes, how long does it take?

I listened to my music for one hour and switched off everything except the VDAC before i went to sleep.

I was also replacing the speaker cable from generic [14] AWG OFC cable to QED XT Evolution. I also barely notice the difference. The difference, if any, probably only marginal and subjective (as I think i paid more for the QED thus it should sound a little bit better). But I can't confirm on that coz i need a few minutes to replace the cable so can't do instant comparison.

The DAC comparison is much easier through the amp's remote (and closing my eyes).

any input is appreciated. thanks

 

[the record spot]

You probably noted correctly that there's very little difference having gone from 14AWG cable (which is perfectly decent) to an expensive branded one and that's a whole other (often pointless) argument.

Never compared the V-DAC (or any other DAC), though it is very well respected, but the greatest changes to a sound will generally be by changing the main components - amp, source, speakers, than anything else (and assuming that the changes are between bits of gear that don't share a similar sound 'character' as I found in comparing a particular Marantz amp with an Audio Analogue one some time ago).

As for "burn-in", you could as easily call it "your ears getting used to the new sound" and in terms of equipment, the time it takes to reach its optimum operating temperature. For electronics, about an hour at the most.

 

[aliEnRIK]

the record spot:

As for "burn-in", you could as easily call it "your ears getting used to the new sound" and in terms of equipment, the time it takes to reach its optimum operating temperature. For electronics, about an hour at the most.

You could to a degree. But some components definitely change over time.

Case in point is my P1000 power amp. It was VERY poor when I first got it. To the point I was considering sending it back within the 1st hour. Next to no bass and next to no power (I cranked it right up and it was sounding pretty feeble. At 135 watts per channel this should not be.

Gave it a good run in and it was starting to sound better just a few hours later. By the end of the week it was a powerhouse which shook the floor.

My ears may take a short while to get used to a sound. But I can tell instantly if somethings not right. My ears did not get used to the sound over a week. The changes were far to big for that.

As for the OP, I would expect a DAC to be prety much run in with a 24 hour period (perhaps far less).

Personally I really dont like QED cables. They tend to artificially brighten sound at the detriment to actual true detail
Speaker cables tend to take a week or so to sound their best, unless
theres silver in them which means it could take a lot longer
If you want some cracking 'cheap' cables id recommend the Van Damme LC-OFC cables

Recently fitted some to a hifi costing 10s of thousands and the detail they allow through for the price is staggering.

 

[idc]

I agree with The Record Spot, burn in is the time it takes for your ears to get used to the new sound. Speakers do burn in to an extent, but that is it in the realms of audibility.

If you have done in effect a blind test between your DVD player and a DAC and cannot tell the difference, (which is fine as many would like to think they can tell differences, but blind testing shows them to be wrong), then either keep it for its connectivity or sell it and spend the money on something else.

 

[Dan Turner]

I am firmly in the 'burn-in exists' camp - it's not just your ears. Many manufacturers cite this themselves, and I have never heard of a single one stating that burn-in does not exist. I would make sure that any component has had 50 hours of use on it before making any critical judgements.

Don't take our word for it, call up MF and ask what sort of burn-in period they expect before one of their products is on song.

 

[shafesk]

I got my Mordaunt Short Mezzo 6 for about 5 days now, although MS mentions in the manual that it takes 36 hours to burn them in, the sound quality hasn't changed a bit! However, I bought a pair of Bose Triport Headphones (guilty as charged...I know that sorta kit isnt welcome here but they are comfortable so dont judge me) and at first they sounded nothing like the ones I demoed...at one point I thought it was defective, but burn in really worked! Another case for burn in would be my CA 340a, when I started they didnt sound like they could handle volume at all...it took me about 2 weeks till they really put out decent sound at decent volume believe it or not.

Moral of the story...if you dont like your kit...pray its still burning in..in my experience didnt work with everything I owned. I thought the V-dacs are excellent....give them time my friend

 

[shafesk]

By the way for burning I suggest leaving ur system on at low volume so that theres a signal passing into the dac...might make a difference

 

[idc]

Dan Turner:

I am firmly in the 'burn-in exists' camp - it's not just your ears. Many manufacturers cite this themselves, and I have never heard of a single one stating that burn-in does not exist. I would make sure that any component has had 50 hours of use on it before making any critical judgements.

Don't take our word for it, call up MF and ask what sort of burn-in period they expect before one of their products is on song.

Matrix Hifi, a Spanish site/ forum e-mailed a load of speaker makers and asked about burn in. The replies varied from no burn in, to a good few hours, to audiophiles tell us there is burn in! 76% report no burn in time.

Tests of woofers have found that they do change with use, but they will return to their original state if left unused. That return to the original state can take a few hours or even days. So burn in, as a physical change does happen with woofers and if a woofer is in continued use it will remain burned in. But if is not used it will return to its original state, so the burn in goes away. I have not found similar tests on any other type of speaker.

I have also not found any blind tests for before and after burn in on any hifi product.

 

[Anonymous]

Headphones also need burn in? Wow, ok, will try to burn it in then.

I bought budget headphone Sennheiser HD 202 which got rave reviews from Amazon, from ordinary layman to professional sound enginner who claimed that "this headphone is the best". But the bass is overwhelming and swamp the mid and treble, up to the point that i have to use the tone control of the amp (never use it before) to tame the bass to reasonable level.

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for all the replies.

Speakers do need burn in make sense (although the new info that they return to the original state is new to me).

Electronics need burn in? Let me try this on the Vdac. Reading Rotel encyclopedia, Rotel said that different capacitors have different characteristics (something like the ability to drain and restore it fast, if I remember it correctly). So probably the capacitors (and other electronic components (I am not an engineer) do need some 'exercise' before they reach their optimum performance.

as i already took the plunge, then try the burn in the VDAC will do no harm. VDAC is a respectable product which I am expecting to beat my GBP 30 cheap DVD player, and someone at Amazon's review recommends 60 hours of burn in before the VDAC can really sing.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the advice.

last night i also realised that i did the wrong thing of burn in (I switched off everything except the VDAC). VDAC has 2 LED lights - pwer and signal.

The LED signal was off as it receives no digital signal to process.

 

[Golden Ears]

Burning in! Crazy but often an evil that must be done, I recall my father inlaws biggest purchase regret a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona's These beautifully made, impressive looking speakers lacked bass to the extent that he purchased a sub also Sonus faber to give them a kick. The strangest thing happened, after 3 YEARS!!! of constant use the things opened up and sung like crazy, the bottom end was full and the need for a sub had been removed, 3 years! I'll never forget how long they took. As for general electronics I purchased a DAC Magic first impressions were not to be written here ( I've already posted my thoughts! ). I can not make my mind up wether to leave it running through the PC for a few weeks or leave it in the box! I have had valves improve overtime and CD players sound better after running in normally for a few weeks, I finf if possible leave the system running while at work at a modest volume to allow proper buring in remember to leave the CD on repeat! Oh and if you have any CDs that have varied frequencies these are often best! These are system burn in cds out there I have one, I don't really know if it has helped but I have left the horrible sounding thing playing while out! If nothing else the robbers will give you a miss!

 

[idc]

newtohifijkt:
Headphones also need burn in? Wow, ok, will try to burn it in then.

I bought budget headphone Sennheiser HD 202 which got rave reviews from Amazon, from ordinary layman to professional sound enginner who claimed that "this headphone is the best". But the bass is overwhelming and swamp the mid and treble, up to the point that i have to use the tone control of the amp (never use it before) to tame the bass to reasonable level.

It would appear so. On another forum a sound engineer waxed lyrical about how his Beyers had burned in. He then mentioned whow he had not used them for months, so i asked him to try them again, which he did and came back to say they sounded like the day he had bought them. However, there needs to be more proper testing and I still think that the mind burns in far more than the equipment, even speakers.

Re the HD202s, they are bass heavy. I much prefer the HD201s, which also get rave reviews. Sennheiser often make two versions, one being bass heavy, you got the bass heavy one.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

newtohifijkt:
Hi all,

last night I had the chance to setup my newly bought VDAC. As I think the source is the weak link of my system and relatively cheaper than to upgrade the amp / speakers.

I compared the VDAC to my cheap LG DVD player. The analog output of DVD goes to the amp, the optical output to VDAC and then connected to the amp. I did the comparison by A/B-ing it from the amplifier while i closed my eyes. I could not notice the difference. Does the VDAC need burn in period to sound (significantly) better? And if yes, how long does it take?

I listened to my music for one hour and switched off everything except the VDAC before i went to sleep.

I was also replacing the speaker cable from generic [14] AWG OFC cable to QED XT Evolution. I also barely notice the difference. The difference, if any, probably only marginal and subjective (as I think i paid more for the QED thus it should sound a little bit better). But I can't confirm on that coz i need a few minutes to replace the cable so can't do instant comparison.

The DAC comparison is much easier through the amp's remote (and closing my eyes).

any input is appreciated. thanks

I think with your amp and speakers, adding a better DAC and/or speaker cable, the improvement will be small. You will probably notice more if and when you upgrade your other stuff.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
I agree with The Record Spot, burn in is the time it takes for your ears to get used to the new sound.

Chord company have used blind testing to test the 'burn in' phenomenon

They claim their own blind tests have indicated that 'small' but 'significant' changes have occured comparing cables that are new to those that have had over 100 hours use. They admit to not having a genuine scientific explanation as to why though.

Perhaps if you contacted them theyd give their results to you?

What I really found interesting was theyve found the same that I have in their tests. That silver or silver plated cables (particularly ones coated in teflon) are more subject to 'burn in' changes

 

[idc]

Thanks Rick, I'll have look at that. However, small and significant, kind of contradictory. That suggests a blind test where the result is actually insignificant and you cannot really prove anything from it.

 

[idc]

First google and a blind test with maplins and Chord cables. The overall result was 70%, which is actually a fail as it is not significant as the article states. Importantly they reported a difference in volume between the Chord and cheaper cable, the Chord sounding louder. So the Chord will have less resistance and louder usually sounds better, until you get to silly volumes. I believe that volume is the one difference that cables can make. But it is not significant as you can do the same with your volume control.
LINK REMOVED BY MODS - House Rules
EDIT - Chord e-mailed asking about blind testing.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't ever mix up 'burn in' of electronics with what happens in a new loadspeaker!

A speaker have rubber parts that might need softening through use before they move freely. Tests I've seen indicates that this process is rather short though.

For electronics, there's no such parts. There's component that might work better when warmed up -- but this warming don't take long, and won't last after you turn off the device.

Cables simply have nothing in them that will alter with use -- unless they're exposed to too much energy and starts melting...

From what we know from theory and listening tests, it's safe to say that 'burn in' of electronics is BS, and that any improvement of the sound that people might hear is simply them getting used to the new equipment. For speakers there might be something in it -- though not as much as some people think.

If you don't hear differences in an A/B test between two DACs, chances are there's no difference. The components on the digital side is very much the same, whether the DAC is cheap or expensive. There's bigger differences on the analogue side -- but whether they're audible, unless the manufacturer deliberately has altered the frequency response to get a certain 'sound signature', is doubtful.

 

[Anonymous]

upgrading my other stuffs? Such as the amp and speakers? I am thinking of that too (and sending my existing equipment to my mom or brother). But probably next year, now preparing the budget first. Probably 750 quid for amp and another 750 for speakers.

but in the case i want a gradual upgrade, which route to go? (speaker or amp first?). i may ask this in different thread.

btw you said "I think with your amp and speakers, adding a better DAC and/or speaker cable, the improvement will be small", which i am wondering why? I was thinking my source is the weak link so replace it first before upgrading others. (sorry, just a newbie question). Thanks.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
First google and a blind test with maplins and Chord cables. The overall result was 70%, which is actually a fail as it is not significant as the article states. Importantly they reported a difference in volume between the Chord and cheaper cable, the Chord sounding louder. So the Chord will have less resistance and louder usually sounds better, until you get to silly volumes. I believe that volume is the one difference that cables can make. But it is not significant as you can do the same with your volume control.

EDIT - Chord e-mailed asking about blind testing.

If burn in doesnt exist then the blind tests that chord have done should be around the 50/50 mark. As clearly the volume will be exacly the same.

Id be very intersted in them (But your lucky if you do get them, I hardly ever get any responses when I email things of this nature)

Another thing of note I found interesting is that they do believe in directional cables (ie, one way will invariably be better than the other even if people cant actually hear it). In their tests (Not blind tests), theyve found there are audible differences one way from another

And yet they admit when they tried varying lengths of speaker cables (say 2m to the left speaker and 8m to the right) they found NO audible difference. Surely a cable manufacture 'if they were lying', would tell everyone to use the same lengths as they get more of a sale out of it? (An extra 6m of cable is an extra 6m of cable at the end of the day)

It makes more sense to tell people to use the same lengths than it does to say burn in exists if it doesnt as burn in would surely put customers OFF (Who wants to use cables for days/weeks before it sounds at its best?)

They also admit that as yet theres no real way of measuring the difference between what 'detail' (Nothing whatsoever to do with capacitance etc) comes out of an amplifier and what 'detail' is lost by the time it gets to the end of the speaker cable (and similar tests between cd players and amps etc)

Theyve also pretty much found exactly the same that I have when testing my cables (Though admit I havnt tried directions. That would take an age.) More detail is what ive heard and the 3 figures of Capacitance, Inductance and Resistance have had absolutely NO bearing on detail loss at all

The sceptics will just roll their eyes and tell us its all BS

I say kudos to Chord for letting people know what THEYVE found in their tests and not shying away from it

(Ps, just a note on the test that you referred to. The 2 cables believers actually got ALL questions correct that they did. It was the sceptics that swayed the results. So whilst still not statistically significant, im sure hoping they include the 2 cable believers in another test as if they get them all correct again id say were into some for of 'significant' statistic by then)

 

[idc]

Since the cable blind tests have so far overall produced random results, there will be total passes and total fails as well. That test, when taken with all of the other cables ones, finds just random results. That the few who do get one right may then claim golden ears would, I am sure be disproved by repeated testing.

There is a different situation with the likes of amps, speakers and codecs, where the pass rate is much higher. That shows such products do make a difference and further proves cables do not.

I agree about detail loss. Resistance can give the impression of detail loss if a higher resistance cable is used and it lowers the volume.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Has anyone ever tried to test burn in, by measuring the output?

I would have thought that this would be quite achievable, as after all, all you are looking for is a difference in output from a brand new product, to one that has been run in for a good month or two, then allowed to cool down and re-measure.

Perhaps a numerical representation of test tones at different frequencies to measure the ability of the note to stop and start with precision, the pitch of the note, volume, plus any other measurable factor the engineers can think of. Maybe I'm over simplifying it.

EDIT:

I can't comment on electronics, but I 100% agree with the OP with regard to running in speakers. There is a definite improvement IMO of speakers performance over time. I know from the rubber seals that a regularly replace on my drysuit that rubber softens with use.

 

[idc]

The best I can find is measuring woofers. All of the tests conclude that there is a change. However, some have gone back after a while and found that the woofer has reverted to its original state. It is reasonable to conclude that tweeters will do the same, but less.

I cannot find anything definitive on any other hifi product.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
Since the cable blind tests have so far overall produced random results, there will be total passes and total fails as well. That test, when taken with all of the other cables ones, finds just random results. That the few who do get one right may then claim golden ears would, I am sure be disproved by repeated testing.

There is a different situation with the likes of amps, speakers and codecs, where the pass rate is much higher. That shows such products do make a difference and further proves cables do not.

I agree about detail loss. Resistance can give the impression of detail loss if a higher resistance cable is used and it lowers the volume.

Im wasting my time talking about blind tests so ill not bother

Just curious though ~ what are the odds that out of 4 people, 2 got ALL correct?

As for resistance ill repeat ~ the resistance values had ZERO to do with detail. Theyre completely random and my tests are over weeks with varying degrees of volume

 

[JohnnyV111]

idc:
Importantly they reported a difference in volume between the Chord and cheaper cable, the Chord sounding louder. So the Chord will have less resistance and louder usually sounds better, until you get to silly volumes. I believe that volume is the one difference that cables can make. But it is not significant as you can do the same with your volume control.




Doesn't an increase in volume from a cable give a better signal to noise ratio? So, typically if the interconnect from source to amp gave a higher volume level, the amp could be pushed louder with less chance of hiss or other artifacts. Might the dynamic range be increased as well?