How long is the burn-in period?

[idc]

aliEnRIK:idc:
Since the cable blind tests have so far overall produced random results, there will be total passes and total fails as well. That test, when taken with all of the other cables ones, finds just random results. That the few who do get one right may then claim golden ears would, I am sure be disproved by repeated testing.

There is a different situation with the likes of amps, speakers and codecs, where the pass rate is much higher. That shows such products do make a difference and further proves cables do not.

I agree about detail loss. Resistance can give the impression of detail loss if a higher resistance cable is used and it lowers the volume.

Im wasting my time talking about blind tests so ill not bother

Just curious though ~ what are the odds that out of 4 people, 2 got ALL correct?

As for resistance ill repeat ~ the resistance values had ZERO to do with detail. Theyre completely random and my tests are over weeks with varying degrees of volume

The odds are good. If there was a sound difference though you would expect 4/4 or 3/4 consistently, even if the difference was small. If you repeatedly, with many tests get no better than random or 2/4 then there is no difference.

 

[Dan Turner]

I remember having a demo set of Atlas Hyper 2.0 cables at home, i listened to them over a week or so and found them to be enough of an improvement to buy some, so I went back to the dealer, swapped them for an absolutely identical set of brand new ones, went home, plugged in, switched on and....the sound was completely different, the whole thing sounded muddy and veiled and the bass instead of being tight and deep was just a monotone upper-bass thud. It took weeks of use for my system to sound like it had when i had the demo set in place.

As implausible as it seemed to me, the fact that the new cables needed to burn in was the only feasible explanation - they were identical to the demo set and nothing else had changed at all. I did not need to get used to the sound, and It wasn't psychological because the last thing that had entered my mind was that the new set I'd just bought would sound anything other than identical to the demo set I'd just returned.

Just because we don't understandand something or aren't capable of measuring or defining it scientifically doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - to a rational person being objective, it means that either it doesn't exist or that our scientific capabilities aren't sufficient to define or measure it yet. There are a great many people who have heard this phenomenon first hand including myself so I believe that the latter is the case.

 

[Anonymous]

Dan Turner:
I remember having a demo set of Atlas Hyper 2.0 cables at home, i listened to them over a week or so and found them to be enough of an improvement to buy some, so I went back to the dealer, swapped them for an absolutely identical set of brand new ones, went home, plugged in, switched on and....the sound was completely different, the whole thing sounded muddy and veiled and the bass instead of being tight and deep was just a monotone upper-bass thud. It took weeks of use for my system to sound like it had when i had the demo set in place.

As implausible as it seemed to me, the fact that the new cables needed to burn in was the only feasible explanation - they were identical to the demo set and nothing else had changed at all. I did not need to get used to the sound, and It wasn't psychological because the last thing that had entered my mind was that the new set I'd just bought would sound anything other than identical to the demo set I'd just returned.

Just because we don't understandand something or aren't capable of measuring or defining it scientifically doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - to a rational person being objective, it means that either it doesn't exist or that our scientific capabilities aren't sufficient to define or measure it yet. There are a great many people who have heard this phenomenon first hand including myself so I believe that the latter is the case.You're right, totally implausible and absolute bo**ocks in fact.

That said, can I sell you my second hand Ford Escort? It looks like a normal one but, once you've driven it for 40000 miles, you'll realise it has THE POWER...

'Bye all, si je ne me trompe pas.

 

[shooter]

Tarquinh:si je ne me trompe pa

IIANM?

 

[idc]

JohnnyV111:idc:
Importantly they reported a difference in volume between the Chord and cheaper cable, the Chord sounding louder. So the Chord will have less resistance and louder usually sounds better, until you get to silly volumes. I believe that volume is the one difference that cables can make. But it is not significant as you can do the same with your volume control.




Doesn't an increase in volume from a cable give a better signal to noise ratio? So, typically if the interconnect from source to amp gave a higher volume level, the amp could be pushed louder with less chance of hiss or other artifacts. Might the dynamic range be increased as well?

I am sure that is the case and rather than use a cable to try and get that to happen, you are better off with attenuators.

 

[idc]

Dan Turner:
I remember having a demo set of Atlas Hyper 2.0 cables at home, i listened to them over a week or so and found them to be enough of an improvement to buy some, so I went back to the dealer, swapped them for an absolutely identical set of brand new ones, went home, plugged in, switched on and....the sound was completely different, the whole thing sounded muddy and veiled and the bass instead of being tight and deep was just a monotone upper-bass thud. It took weeks of use for my system to sound like it had when i had the demo set in place.

As implausible as it seemed to me, the fact that the new cables needed to burn in was the only feasible explanation - they were identical to the demo set and nothing else had changed at all. I did not need to get used to the sound, and It wasn't psychological because the last thing that had entered my mind was that the new set I'd just bought would sound anything other than identical to the demo set I'd just returned.

Just because we don't understandand something or aren't capable of measuring or defining it scientifically doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - to a rational person being objective, it means that either it doesn't exist or that our scientific capabilities aren't sufficient to define or measure it yet. There are a great many people who have heard this phenomenon first hand including myself so I believe that the latter is the case.

Dan, I disagree that burn in is the only feasible answer. Psychoacoustics and placebo can still have a role to play, particularly with the demo cable you got. You expected it to be better, so it was. You had no expectations for the new one, so your mind did not react in the same way as before.

A great many people have heard the effects of placebo and possible changes caused by slight attenuation, then their ears have adjusted to the sound and that was the burn in.

 

[JohnnyV111]

idc:JohnnyV111:idc:
Importantly they reported a difference in volume between the Chord and cheaper cable, the Chord sounding louder. So the Chord will have less resistance and louder usually sounds better, until you get to silly volumes. I believe that volume is the one difference that cables can make. But it is not significant as you can do the same with your volume control.




Doesn't an increase in volume from a cable give a better signal to noise ratio? So, typically if the interconnect from source to amp gave a higher volume level, the amp could be pushed louder with less chance of hiss or other artifacts. Might the dynamic range be increased as well?

I am sure that is the case and rather than use a cable to try and get that to happen, you are better off with attenuators.

Wouldn't attenuators add their own colour to the sound whereas the cable would be relatively transparent?

 

[aliEnRIK]

Dan Turner:
I remember having a demo set of Atlas Hyper 2.0 cables at home, i listened to them over a week or so and found them to be enough of an improvement to buy some, so I went back to the dealer, swapped them for an absolutely identical set of brand new ones, went home, plugged in, switched on and....the sound was completely different, the whole thing sounded muddy and veiled and the bass instead of being tight and deep was just a monotone upper-bass thud. It took weeks of use for my system to sound like it had when i had the demo set in place.

Exactly as ive found many times. Dont worry about the sceptics. They dont like to think they may possibly be wrong so theyll throw everything they can at you to tell you that you just happened to imagine it. It upsets them so much they usually start swearing too.........

 

[Andrew Everard]

idc:Psychoacoustics and placeboTwo 50p pieces in the sceptical clich‚ tin, please.

idc:the effects of placeboOops, that's another 50p, thanks.

We've got a special offer on at the moment: for just a quid more you can have 'audiophool', 'foo' and 'snake oil', too...

 

[the record spot]

And £60 buys you a van den hul, Audioquest, etc., cable, all of which sound the same, but based on the previous, I should hear a difference and according to WHF's very own buying guide one-liner, they make my system sound "dynamic", "lively" and so on. Ah yes, you were saying Andrew...!

 

[Anonymous]

Dan Turner:

Many manufacturers cite this themselves, and I have never heard of a single one stating that burn-in does not exist.

Apart from Roth who have some text as to why it really doesn't exist on their website.

 

[idc]

JohnnyV111:

Wouldn't attenuators add their own colour to the sound whereas the cable would be relatively transparent?

Colour and transparent are more descriptives I would apply to amps, particularly valve vs solid state and speakers, the things in hifi that do sound different. An attenuator is a resistor in a phono, which affects volume only.

I think that volume controls would be a better upgrade than any cable ever could be, but obviously that means modding which is problematic in its own right.

 

[idc]

aliEnRIK:Dan Turner:

I remember having a demo set of Atlas Hyper 2.0 cables at home, i listened to them over a week or so and found them to be enough of an improvement to buy some, so I went back to the dealer, swapped them for an absolutely identical set of brand new ones, went home, plugged in, switched on and....the sound was completely different, the whole thing sounded muddy and veiled and the bass instead of being tight and deep was just a monotone upper-bass thud. It took weeks of use for my system to sound like it had when i had the demo set in place.

Exactly as ive found many times. Dont worry about the sceptics. They dont like to think they may possibly be wrong so theyll throw everything they can at you to tell you that you just happened to imagine it. It upsets them so much they usually start swearing too.........

I worry about the non-sceptics in the same way and for the same reasons.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
I worry about the non-sceptics in the same way and for the same reasons.

No need to worry about me pal

I dont blind test speakers or cd players or indeed any electronics

I dont need to blind test cables for the same reason

My hearings fine and im completely aware of the placebo effect

For example ~ tested a Norost THOR last week (big fat mains block). I was already convinced that because it had been joint designed by Isotek and Norost that they couldnt get it wrong and it would be a clear step up from not having a conditioner at all (like the system we tried it in)

2 days later id changed my mind. It was strangling the high power amp, and it turns out it didnt even filter RFI. So placebo effect IN effect, I still gave it the thumbs down

Also tested speakers that had completely identical drivers and I was already convinced they wouldnt be worth the extra outlay (twice the price) and yet the ones we tested sounded FAR better. It smashed the placebo effect into dust. But according to your analysis we could have just 'believed' they were better. We didnt 'prove' they were as we didnt blind test them. A bit sad really

Fact is this IDC ~ your absolutely convinced that cables make no difference. Even if blind test results were put in your hand to say as such youd say it still doesnt exist, the test would have been invalidated somehow
Take that test you posted. If you take away the sceptics you have a result of 100% correct. Youve already ommited that (I understand why, but the fact is you shouldnt omit it, you should pursue to see if they can do the same again and again and again. THAT would prove that 'some' people can clearly tell differences). Now if you take away the believers and you leave just the sceptics you get another interesting set of answers ~ pretty much 50/50. GUESSWORK. Thats because the sceptics cant hear for sh...

Im with another camp, that cables CAN make audible differences, although not always for the better. The best cables sound completely neutral (like all the cheapie ones the sceptics use) with one clear difference - they let FAR more detail through and everything sounds so much more 'hi fi' like (Top and bottom ends sound better and more extended than the cheaper cables too)

 

[idc]

Blind testing by What Hifi and Harman International have found that mains conditioning and speakers are identifiably different. So I agree placebo had no place when you found mains conditioning and speakers to be different.

If blind testing found consistent differences in cables, I would go with the science and state that cables can make a difference.

Taking away the result that does not suit you and then announcing a 100% success is clearly dodgy.

That some passed is worthy of further blind testing. Since tests so far show random results, it is to be expected that some will get 100% initially, but over the long term I would expect their results would become more random and towards 50%.

I have not found any long term test such as that.

 

[the record spot]

I'm not surprised in the slightest to hear that speakers would be different, even with the same drivers. Not in the least. Slightly surprised that would come up. As for cables, I heard somewhere that if you sprinkled hundreds and thousands on them, they sounded even sweeter.

Okay, yep, busted, I made that last bit up.

 

[idc]

If anything the surprise is that blind testing of amps and transports have resulted in 'fails' in as much as cheaper options have been preferred to more expensive ones and people have not been able to identify their own amp against competition. The important part is that there are differences. It is those differences that further prove the lack of a difference in cables.

 

[aliEnRIK]

the record spot:I'm not surprised in the slightest to hear that speakers would be different, even with the same drivers. Not in the least. Slightly surprised that would come up. As for cables, I heard somewhere that if you sprinkled hundreds and thousands on them, they sounded even sweeter.

Okay, yep, busted, I made that last bit up.

Did I say anywhere at all that I didnt think they would be 'different'?

 

[idc]

No, but you did say that they smashed the placebo theory to dust. What I am saying is that placebo does not apply to speakers where there is a difference. Placebo applies to cables, where there is no difference.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:No, but you did say that they smashed the placebo theory to dust. What I am saying is that placebo does not apply to speakers where there is a difference. Placebo applies to cables, where there is no difference.

Thats right IDC

Write the rules to say whatever YOU like

 

[Andrew Everard]

(Gets comfy chair and drink, settles back to enjoy show...)

 

[idc]

I don't follow what you are saying now. Rules?

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:I don't follow what you are saying now. Rules?

I dont need to explain to you what a placebo is and how people are affected by them now do I IDC?

 

[the record spot]

aliEnRIK:Did I say anywhere at all that I didnt think they would be 'different'?

D'you know, I really couldn't give two hoots. It's the most dire way to spend and evening out there. Who really cares beyond a few people? Seriously, I'm glad you love the ride or work in that field, but having walked the walk myself for a bunch of cables in the kind of price brackets that a good few folk on here would pay, that gave no difference at all between the others (as in - none at all), I'm pretty well done with it.

They were described in this magazine as having various qualities, yet when used with Linn, Marantz and Audio Analogue source gear as well as various amps, you couldn't tell them apart. So the claims for copper interconnects are dubious at best. When you factor in a £7 interconnect that did/does the same job, does it as well with no loss, then I'm happy to question not how good the £7 cable is, but what the justification is for "audiophile" standard cables (whatever that is).

This is used not with some £50 CDP, but one that's £600, an amp that's up there with the £1000-1500 bracket amps (as in, it's the equal of Leema's Pulse, Harman's HK990 and Exposure's 3010s2) and speakers of the £800-1000 order, so I'd expect to have something to shout about.

Likewise, the same findings with unbranded 322 strand speaker cable. And as for mains blocks, I've probably got one of the better ones in a 3-point BT MCU, it's got a huge toroidal transformer in it and it makes zero change to the sound.

Thing is, in no way am I losing out here (how could I really?) - the arguments "for" just fall on deaf ears now. I used to buy into it all, must've spent a few hundred on cable over the years, but that was thanks to the influence of the blurb on the box ("our latest cryogenically heat treated left in the sun to bake cables folks!!"), the reviews, the forum chat and so on. Thank God I've cast that one aside.

You hear a difference? Brilliant, seriously. I gave up trying to hear one as there wasn't one to hear after half a dozen cables. I now spend the money on the core components where it should always go. I won't add much more to these threads barring the odd one liner simply as there's nothing else to say on the topic for me. For others there obviously is. What I might add would be a mention of generic options for potential buyers out there, but that's it. Folk can spend their money as they will (Chord seem to be flavour of the month these days), they're welcome to it, for me, my dog's out of this hunt.

PICTURE REMOVED BY MODS for copyright reasons

 

[aliEnRIK]

One down.............