How long is the burn-in period?

[JohnnyV111]

aliEnRIK:JohnnyV111:aliEnRIK:JohnnyV111:
With a very few exceptions, all vinyl mastering is done from a digital source nowadays, even music recorded entirely in the analogue domain will be converted to prevent degradation of the master tapes and to facilitate the use of digital editing tools. I have never heard of even the most hardcore of antique analogue gear using producers or vinyl mastering engineers considering the process colour the sound as the above technical doctrine would suggest.

Im not disputing any of that. All im saying is that to get 'true' 24 bit audio with zero errors is as yet impossible

Which again, has NOTHING to do with measuring the analogue signal.............

I am suggesting that the digital representation of an analogue signal made through high end equipment would be indistinguishably close to the original analogue signal, and would make accurate and detailed testing possible.

It wouldnt be accurate (By accurate, I mean zero errors). But I suppose its possible that differences could be measured should they exist. Do you know of anyone thats done such a thing?

Unfortunately, no, I do not. The test would not be expensive to set up - buy the cables, hire a decent mastering studio to record the signal from the cables (recording them many times should negate any jitter worries), burn the cables in, go back in the studio to record again, analyse the results, the resulting sound files could be posted online and so anyone wishing to perform their own tests could do so). However, in order for such a test to be taken seriously as a conclusive study it would need to be conducted as part of an academic project or another expert organisation without any financial or other perceived interest in the results. So it may not happen.

I believe it would be possible to measure the noise floor, dynamic range and "brightness" of a cable to perceivable levels using a domestic PC and AD converter, but that is just my opinion and the results would stand as nothing more than an anecdote,.

 

[idc]

The Audio DiffMaker Play two signals, the software finds any difference and you can then find out if you can hear the difference. It is free to use, but at the moment beyond my abilities. Any takers?

 

[Dave_]

Life's too short!

 

[Anonymous]

daveh75:Life's too short!
absolutely, why all the fuss about a possible audio difference between cables, that if indeed there, is so subtle as to go unoticed by many?

 

[idc]

I pursue this topic because;

I find the science interesting

I think that there is too much psuedo-science now-a-days and that it should be challenged on every occasion

I enjoy the debate

 

[JohnnyV111]

idc:The Audio DiffMaker Play two signals, the software finds any difference and you can then find out if you can hear the difference. It is free to use, but at the moment beyond my abilities. Any takers?

Alas my life is not too short...I'm on the case!

 

[aliEnRIK]

maxflinn:daveh75:Life's too short!
absolutely, why all the fuss about a possible audio difference between cables, that if indeed there, is so subtle as to go unoticed by many?

Why the fuss over tvs?

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:The Audio DiffMaker Play two signals, the software finds any difference and you can then find out if you can hear the difference. It is free to use, but at the moment beyond my abilities. Any takers?

That is a GOOD find idc! (assuming it actually works)

I might well give that a go.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

idc:

I pursue this topic because;

I find the science interesting

I think that there is too much psuedo-science now-a-days and that it should be challenged on every occasion

I enjoy the debate

I would elaborate - challenge the ones trying to make money on this pseudo sciences.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Isn't debating burn in a moot point anyway (myself included).

Any kit we buy is going to be run in regardless or whether 'burn-in' exists or not.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Sliced Bread:
Isn't debating burn in a moot point anyway (myself included).

Any kit we buy is going to be run in regardless or whether 'burn-in' exists or not.

Im not sure where your coming from there

If I buy something brand new (A cable say) then it certainly wont have been used?

 

[Sliced Bread]

aliEnRIK:Sliced Bread:
Isn't debating burn in a moot point anyway (myself included).

Any kit we buy is going to be run in regardless or whether 'burn-in' exists or not.

Im not sure where your coming from there

If I buy something brand new (A cable say) then it certainly wont have been used?

Sorry, what I meant was. If burn in exists then you're going to run it in at some point anyway (assuming you don't return it to the shop).

My point is...whether it is physical or psychological, if it takes 50 hours or so before a person starts to appreciate a difference in sound or whether it takes that same amount of time for a piece of hardware to sound at it's best, shouldn't really matter. The outcome still the same regardless of how you get there.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Sliced Bread:
Sorry, what I meant was. If burn in exists then you're going to run it in at some point anyway (assuming you don't return it to the shop).

My point is...whether it is physical or psychological, if it takes 50 hours or so before a person starts to appreciate a difference in sound or whether it takes that same amount of time for a piece of hardware to sound at it's best, shouldn't really matter. The outcome still the same regardless of how you get there.

Your quite right. But geeks like me like to find out the science behind changes where possible too

 

[idc]

I have downloaded DiffMaker and it appears virus free and genuine. I tried to run my first test, (DIY vs SHB cable) but all I did was record the TV, presumably from the laptop somewhere. It did not record the track I played off Spotify. More work needed.

 

[Sliced Bread]

aliEnRIK:Sliced Bread:
Sorry, what I meant was. If burn in exists then you're going to run it in at some point anyway (assuming you don't return it to the shop).

My point is...whether it is physical or psychological, if it takes 50 hours or so before a person starts to appreciate a difference in sound or whether it takes that same amount of time for a piece of hardware to sound at it's best, shouldn't really matter. The outcome still the same regardless of how you get there.

Your quite right. But geeks like me like to find out the science behind changes where possible too

LMAO

Must confess to being a bit of a geek too...or at least that's what my loving wife calls me

 

[JohnnyV111]

I've spent an hour or so using Diffmaker. It's first limitation is that it functions erratically on the start and end points of sound files, so the supplied pink noise file cannot be used as it is too short. Instead I created three separate versions of the first 90 seconds of Mars from Holst's The Planets as it is widely considered to be a dynamic and detailed piece. I added a metronome click to distinguish the start points and to align the versions should I have had to. The recordings were all made in 16 bit using an RME 9532 soundcard plugged into it's own breakout cable using a Chord Crimson XLR 1m cable, followed by a QED Quinnex 3 1m cable and finally a standard Maplin 10m cable. Frustratingly, the Diffmaker would not compensate for the level difference caused by the XLR input of the Chord, so I had to trash any results from that. The Diffmaker's verdict was that there was 0.001db of difference in level between the Maplin and QED and read CorrDepth93.3(L) 94.0(R) whereas it read 300(L+R) when I tried feeding it the same sound file twice. Any other difference between the files was inaudible.

I don't believe the results to have any real significance, but that's what happened if anyone's interested.

 

[idc]

The last bit in plain English please!

 

[JohnnyV111]

idc:The last bit in plain English please!

Sorry - from the XLR bit. The XLR (balanced) cable terminations on the Chord cable meant the sound file was recorded at a much higher volume than the other two cables which have standard phono terminations. The Audiodiff software claims to compensate for differences in level but did not in this case, probably as the difference too great and beyond it's parameters. So I couldn't compare the sound file from the Chord cable. The software is very interesting, but is still clearly in the development stage and that is one of the (many) reasons the test results are not serious.

The software showed that one of the Maplin and QED cables was 0.001db (not perceivable) louder than the other. However, the figure sounds rounded off and I suspect the accuracy of the program. Corrdepth is not something I have come across before - the figures showed a marked numerical difference, I do not know what this signifies. The program allows you to play back the difference it hears between the two files, and apart from an error at the start it played silence, so considered the tone of Maplin and QED files to be identical.

I checked the program by asking it to compare several sets of two duplicate sound files. Longer sound files were considered identical, but the results were erratic when using very short files such as the burst of pink noise. Pink noise is a soundwave that uses the entire frequency spectrum. (20-20000hz)

Hope that is clear - please be specific if you'd like to know anything further.

 

[jase fox]

All these scientific tests are just a load of digits to me, i much prefer my eyes and ears to judge.

 

[JohnnyV111]

Parable for the Familiarisation of Sensory Experience

A gourmand visits his favourite restaurant, and notices that the special is Smoked Belon Oysters. Although he has eaten in many Michelin starred establishments worldwide, and is a keen home cook with experience of the preparation of shellfish, he has never tried his oysters smoked and orders a half dozen. The oysters are beautifully presented and our friend salivates as he places the first on his freshly cleansed tongue. However, he is disappointed to be repelled by the taste. The second is found to be less disgusting, the third he would describe as "neutral" and the fourth to be "very pleasant." He declares the final two oysters to be amongst the best food he has ever tasted. But why should this be? In the following week he researches the ambient temperature of the restaurant and the temperature of their fridge, as well as the weight and volume of the oysters and the time it took him to eat each one.He concludes that the increase in temperature between oysters one and five is sufficient to warrant an extreme reaction from a person in possession of a sufficiently refined palette. He also rejoices in his discovery of the optimum temperature for the service and consumption of the Smoked Belon Oyster.

 

[idc]

Thanks for the simpler version JohnnyV111.

Jase would you agree that, if something measures the same but sounds different, the difference is in the head and not in the something.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:if something measures the same but sounds different, the difference is in the head and not in the something.

Here we go again. Your questioning our brain functions over and over and over

Youve sussed me idc, Im a

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[Anonymous]

jase fox:All these scientific tests are just a load of digits to me, i much prefer my eyes and ears to judge.

Then I take you also believe the world is flat. Because that's what your eyes tells you, and only the digits of science can disprove it...

 

[aliEnRIK]

Fahnsen:
jase fox:All these scientific tests are just a load of digits to me, i much prefer my eyes and ears to judge.

Then I take you also believe the world is flat. Because that's what your eyes tells you, and only the digits of science can disprove it...

Here we go. More ridiculous accusations

Also, if I look out to sea - guess what my eyes tell me?

 

[Anonymous]

I have read this whole thread and wonder to myself why no one will even begin to consider each individual human's hearing as the most important factor in any sound related changes.

Most people are blessed with reasonable hearing, some can hear ants at it, some can't hear!

Any way this considered it really negates this whole aregument, I am lucky enough to have very good hearing, part of that is training(choir achool), part of it is luck and genetics.

My wife can't tell if I've changed the speakers, let alone the cable! Can I hear the difference, well, I can when I change from just copper to copper with silver. can I tell the difference from a cheap interconnect to a studio grade coaxial, yes it's like night and day. Can I tell the difference between the studio grade interconnect and something costing £500. No I can't and I very much think that serious producers and mastering enginers don't

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as long as the sound is excellent.

As for burn in..................who cares!

enjoy the music