Honestly, do you think Interconnects and Cables make a difference?

[Anonymous]

willieeckslyke:
To: Igglebert

I 'm sorry for hijacking such an intelectual thread, but I have a question for you.

In your sig you say that you have a slate on TOP of your sub. and as I too have a REL Quake sitting on a slab of marble, I wondered why you preferred it t'other way round!

Bob.

Mine is spiked onto concrete floor through carpet, with slate on top. It's tightens up the sound and cuts off any flab, that's all.

 

[visionary]

Dom Tych:Hang on, your whole argument has been along the lines of 'whether a cable costs more or not, there's no difference in sound - it's all marketing rubbish.'
Yet you've just stated that "When I upgraded my MA BR5's to RS6's I heard a massive difference that totally justified the money spent. The same applied when I upgraded a Marantz CD5001 to an Arcam CD192 (obviously as it costs way more)."
So how can a CD players performance be 'obviously' better simply because it costs way more, yet a cables performance couldn't? Or do you simply buy into price/quality perception (the very thing your original post complains about) when it comes to CD players, but not cables?
And again, define cheap and expensive cables.

not a valid argument. Pieces of equipment have moving parts and various other components which can vary in quality. A piece of wire is a piece of wire. If it is thick enough to carry the current it will, if it is too thin it won't.

Now, why don't we all go away and do something more useful, like listen to some MUSIC

 

[John Duncan]

visionary:A piece of wire is a piece of wire.

No it's not.

 

[Anonymous]

I must agree, I have just got some speaker cable for £1.80 per meter, it's 99.99% ofc which is the same as the higher priced stuff say £10+ per meter. Save your money or put it towards a better hi fi

 

[Anonymous]

If a cable is made out of the same stuff i.e. 99.99% ofc, one is priced at £1 and meter and one is £10 a meter, why would they sound any different ? they don't is the answer. It also has nothing to do with the insulation, as long as the wires are not touching eachother or something else. Running them next to mains cable etc can make a difference. Having said that, I think it's worth spending a little on cables just to make sure your getting a good connection between each componant, but not £100 + on a HDMI cable etc.

 

[Frank Harvey]

visionary: A piece of wire is a piece of wire.

If only!!

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry Andrew Everard to bore you with another of my interminable posts. I have put a spell checker through this post and my previous posts on the thread. But I expect that some hilarity will remain, due to words so misspelled they are actually other words with completely different meaning.

Craig M.:i assume then that the sceptics are saying it's expectation bias that explains believers hearing differences? wouldn't that apply the other way as well, if you expect no difference you hear no difference? my own recent experience makes me think it might, after changing my interconnects for some a shop gave me to demo, i sat down to listen thinking there would be no audible difference - i'd read enough forum threads to make me think this would be quite likely - and lo and behold, no apparent difference. it was only when i'd decided i'd put that one to bed, and put my own interconnect back in that i noticed a definite difference. i wasn't listening out for it, but it was quite obvious.

Yes it works both ways. If a cable believer invited a group of cable skeptics around to demonstrate how his cables improved sound quality, and the change of cable or something done covertly at the same time created a measurable, and according to psycho acoustics easily discernable difference. The expected result would be that despite repeatedly swapping the cables and pointing out the difference, they would be adamant they could not hear any difference. On revealing the ruse this could then be used as evidence that the skeptics are either too deaf or too close minded to benefit from any improvements offered by a cable.

Expectation of being able to hear change, making you hear the change because auditory perception is subconsciously focused steered , works even when you are aware of how unreliable perception is. The apocryphal tales of the sound engineer spending hours finely adjusting the sound to perfection, only to discover the device was not connected to the sound path. The A/B comparison test to things the listener knows should make an audible difference, that they are adamant they can hear and enthusiastically describe the difference, only to discover that they have been listening to A the whole time.

The effect is so great that even when the listener is fully aware of the ruse it is difficult to impossible to not perceive if expectation is great, like with human speech. The recording of speech altered to remove the pronunciation of certain letters. Even when the person is fully aware that the recording and playback does not contain the pronunciation of the letters they have great difficulty in not hearing them being pronounced. The listen to a piece of music and tell me what you hear them say, where you can hardly make out a word. The identical piece of music repeated with subtitles and the ease with which the words are now heard, that remains even when the music is repeated a third time without subtitles.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Y'see, that one wasn't boring at all. Baffling, but certainly not boring...

 

[Thaiman]

Andrew Everard:Y'see, that one wasn't boring at all. Baffling, but certainly not boring...

No Mr. E, the post is not but the thread is!...

 

[visionary]

JohnDuncan:visionary:A piece of wire is a piece of wire.

No it's not.

Yes it IS

You might not agree that it has the same characteristics/sound/whatever but it is STILL a piece of wire

 

[Clare Newsome]

visionary:
JohnDuncan:visionary:A piece of wire is a piece of wire.

No it's not.

Yes it IS

You might not agree that it has the same characteristics/sound/whatever but it is STILL a piece of wire

Unless, there is no spoon wire...

 

[Anonymous]

knightout:The apocryphal tales of the sound engineer spending hours finely adjusting the sound to perfection, only to discover the device was not connected to the sound path.

I did that the first time I ran a sound desk for a show. I did notice the one show where I forgot to turn on the rack of power amps though. All isn't lost with my auditory perceptions.

 

[Anonymous]

Craig M.:i assume then that the sceptics are saying it's expectation bias that explains believers hearing differences? wouldn't that apply the other way as well, if you expect no difference you hear no difference? my own recent experience makes me think it might, after changing my interconnects for some a shop gave me to demo, i sat down to listen thinking there would be no audible difference - i'd read enough forum threads to make me think this would be quite likely - and lo and behold, no apparent difference. it was only when i'd decided i'd put that one to bed, and put my own interconnect back in that i noticed a definite difference. i wasn't listening out for it, but it was quite obvious.

Despite not hearing a difference when trying to, then hearing a difference after switching back to the old cables, it can still be argued that what you know you hear is not reliable. Skeptics just will not accept listeners first hand experiences as evidence.

Auditory perception is channeled/focused unconsciously as well as consciously. When you play the same piece of music twice you can perceive different things. If the mind has any suspicion there should be a difference, it will look for differences. If a difference is perceived, and any cause and effect link can be attributed to the change the mind seeking to make sense of the world will usually make the link. Once the link is made it will be used to predict future events. The minds prediction of what it expects to perceive then shape future perception both in how your perception is focused and in how it fills in gaps. It hopes that the world will react as expected and if close enough it will be perceived as the mind expected. The point of controlled double blind tests is they remove the ability of the mind to form and rely on cause and effect links.

This explanation can be seen as doing cartwheels, when Occam`s razor would dictate that the simplest explanation is usually correct. In your situation I would expect there to have been a real change.

 

[visionary]

never mind Occam's razor, this thread is more like a Mobius strip

 

[Anonymous]

cant be bothered to go through all th posts, but I bought some 1.99 cambridge audio wire and then some QED Silver and put my ear up to each, and they sound th same.

maybe my hearing is not as trained as most to hi end

 

[Anonymous]

This is just one factor out of many (so many variables between cables). As a physicist, I know that all conducting materials have differing amounts of impurities. The more impurities there are, the more localised granular eddy currents there will be within, when a current is flowing through the conductor. Eddy currents slightly alter the geometry of the electromagnetic field about the wire (as well as affect resistance and inductance), which cause a destructive self-inducing degradation to the analogue signal. Forgetting things like the skin effect and the differing geometry of the EM field caused by different frequencies, the basic premise of a purer (and more expensive) conductor is that there will be a more accurate representation of the original signal. Whether this makes an audible difference (or not) is a different matter.

 

[John Duncan]

davey1:As a physicist, I know that all conducting materials have differing amounts of impurities.

So a wire is not just a wire then?

 

[margetti]

I have resisted contributing for 3 days - getting involved in a cable debate is akin to talking about politics or religion at a dinner party...

I have my own thoughts and opinions, but for those that are using the argument of "perceived difference" when doing comparisons et al, explain this please...

Many years ago I upgraded the cd interconnect. My girlfirend at the time appreciated the system I had at the time (Cambridge Audio based), but other than that had no real direct interest or involvement in my hi-fi hobby. I didn't say anything about the purchase (one tends not to when spending £100 on an interconnect) - didn't even mention the possibility of it.

That evening, when she came home from work, the hi-fi playing with new, said, £100 interconnect, the first thing she said - the very first thing she said, was along the lines of "have you bought a new cd player/amp?" - and then looked completely confused to see that amp, cd player, and speakers were the same as they always had been.

True story. Can't see where pre-conceptions, expectations, and all that come in to that moment at all.

Yes, interconnects and cables CAN make a difference.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree that cables and wires do make a big difference, if i don,t string my guitar with wire then i can,t get any sound out of it.

Sorry, i,ll get my coat

 

[hammill]

margetti:

I have resisted contributing for 3 days - getting involved in a cable debate is akin to talking about politics or religion at a dinner party...

I have my own thoughts and opinions, but for those that are using the argument of "perceived difference" when doing comparisons et al, explain this please...

Many years ago I upgraded the cd interconnect. My girlfirend at the time appreciated the system I had at the time (Cambridge Audio based), but other than that had no real direct interest or involvement in my hi-fi hobby. I didn't say anything about the purchase (one tends not to when spending £100 on an interconnect) - didn't even mention the possibility of it.

That evening, when she came home from work, the hi-fi playing with new, said, £100 interconnect, the first thing she said - the very first thing she said, was along the lines of "have you bought a new cd player/amp?" - and then looked completely confused to see that amp, cd player, and speakers were the same as they always had been.

True story. Can't see where pre-conceptions, expectations, and all that come in to that moment at all.

Yes, interconnects and cables CAN make a difference.
I don't think that the argument is cables can't make a difference. Rather it is that getting human listeners to accurately decide whether there is a difference is extremely problematic and it does account for people hearing unlikely differences (between HDMI cables for example)

 

[Anonymous]

margetti:

I have resisted contributing for 3 days - getting involved in a cable debate is akin to talking about politics or religion at a dinner party...

I have my own thoughts and opinions, but for those that are using the argument of "perceived difference" when doing comparisons et al, explain this please...

Many years ago I upgraded the cd interconnect. My girlfirend at the time appreciated the system I had at the time (Cambridge Audio based), but other than that had no real direct interest or involvement in my hi-fi hobby. I didn't say anything about the purchase (one tends not to when spending £100 on an interconnect) - didn't even mention the possibility of it.

That evening, when she came home from work, the hi-fi playing with new, said, £100 interconnect, the first thing she said - the very first thing she said, was along the lines of "have you bought a new cd player/amp?" - and then looked completely confused to see that amp, cd player, and speakers were the same as they always had been.

True story. Can't see where pre-conceptions, expectations, and all that come in to that moment at all.

Yes, interconnects and cables CAN make a difference.

Since you ask what explanation a skeptic might offer. I will give you one.

Easy unless you are a damn good poker player. Tells, you gave the game away that something was different about the hifi setup, without even realizing it. The reason why its double blind test, not just blind tests.

 

[Anonymous]

I recently bought a pair of Tannoy DC6s. Reading through the manual I arrived at the section entitled 'Cable Choice'. I quote;

"Always use the best quality of cable available within your budget. High quality audio signals passing from the amplifier to the loudspeaker are unusual in their demands on the cable. Wide dynamic range and frequency bandwidth information has to coexist with the ability to transmit peak currents of at least 10 amps, without incurring any loss or signal impairment. This explains why the sound quality of the information reproduced by the loudspeakers is so dependant on the physical properties of the cables connecting them to the amplifier"

And I think they know a bit about music reproduction....

 

[Anonymous]

They go on to say;

"Remember, cable construction can affect the sound quality, so be prepared to experiment to find a cable that suits your ear and audio system"

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Cidershed:
I recently bought a pair of Tannoy DC6s. Reading through the manual I arrived at the section entitled 'Cable Choice'. I quote;

"Always use the best quality of cable available within your budget. High quality audio signals passing from the amplifier to the loudspeaker are unusual in their demands on the cable. Wide dynamic range and frequency bandwidth information has to coexist with the ability to transmit peak currents of at least 10 amps, without incurring any loss or signal impairment. This explains why the sound quality of the information reproduced by the loudspeakers is so dependant on the physical properties of the cables connecting them to the amplifier"

And I think they know a bit about music reproduction....

And they don't make their own cable (unless I'm mistaken).

 

[Gerrardasnails]

margetti:
I have resisted contributing for 3 days - getting involved in a cable debate is akin to talking about politics or religion at a dinner party...

I have my own thoughts and opinions, but for those that are using the argument of "perceived difference" when doing comparisons et al, explain this please...

Many years ago I upgraded the cd interconnect. My girlfirend at the time appreciated the system I had at the time (Cambridge Audio based), but other than that had no real direct interest or involvement in my hi-fi hobby. I didn't say anything about the purchase (one tends not to when spending £100 on an interconnect) - didn't even mention the possibility of it.

That evening, when she came home from work, the hi-fi playing with new, said, £100 interconnect, the first thing she said - the very first thing she said, was along the lines of "have you bought a new cd player/amp?" - and then looked completely confused to see that amp, cd player, and speakers were the same as they always had been.

True story. Can't see where pre-conceptions, expectations, and all that come in to that moment at all.

Yes, interconnects and cables CAN make a difference.

That story speaks volumes for me. Anyway, I've just won a set of AudioQuest Columbia XLRs for less than I'll sell my Chorus 2s.