Honestly, do you think Interconnects and Cables make a difference?

[Anonymous]

qube2:What I'm saying is that it has been proven over and over again that there is no difference in ABX testing and in electrical measurements. I have no dispute with anyone that buys such cables, I would myself if I had the kit and cash to do so because if you can afford silly money kit, then you can definitely afford silly money cables so why not? They'll likely be of a very high manufacturing quality and last a lifetime. Like I said, to each his own.An ABX test is not a magical procedure that gives you permission to decide, by scientific induction, that audible differences between cables do not exist, in general.

Even though I am in my late forties, have lost more than an octave of my hearing and, at the moment, have partially blocked ears the differences that I hear between cables are often so great that you might as well tell me that ABX tests have proven that people cannot see the difference between the sky and the sea. Consequently, it will take a lot more than a mention of ABX tests to convince me that the blindingly obvious is, in fact, a figment of my imagination.

 

[Anonymous]

MattSPL:

Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

Google Thiel Audio Interview on Cables, Gene DellaSala interviewing designer Jim Thiel. A skeptic interviewing a believer about speaker cable and speaker internal wiring.

MattSPL:

Those people who dont think so either have a system of low resolution, unable to show differences in sound quality, have never heard a good cable or system, or are just fooling themselfs buying a good hifi when they obviously can't tell the difference between a Sony mini system and a high end Naim system.

I would expect the difference between a Sony mini system and a high end Naim system to be measurable and detectable in a controlled double blind test. It is only cable claims that are unsupported by measurable differences that are audible, but not in controlled double blind tests, that I have a problem seeing the value in. If someone wants to sell me something they have to prove to me it is worth the money. So I currently do not use any high-end cables.

I expect most if not all of the people posting have separate systems simply because of the better specs, superior build quality, superior speakers if nothing else. Do you think that upgrade cables are purely marketed to people with "high resolution" systems. What would you qualify as the minimum cost of such a system capable of revealing the benefit of upgrade cables. The often quoted recommendation of spending 10% of system cost on cables, would suggest that even a modest circa £2000 system should be using in the region of £200 worth of cables.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Jack White:Well Clare, I'm counting 2736 'yes it does' and 2728 'no it doesn't'.

But are you measuring that or just trusting on your instincts as to the way the thread is going?

Whichever, I feel another one of knightout's interminable and often hilariously misspelt lectures coming on.

Good lord, is that the time...?

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:

Jack White:Well Clare, I'm counting 2736 'yes it does' and 2728 'no it doesn't'.

But are you measuring that or just trusting on your instincts as to the way the thread is going?

Whichever, I feel another one of knightout's interminable and often hilariously misspelt lectures coming on.

Good lord, is that the time...?

Got me there Andrew. I just believe we won't solve this tonight. But I reckon my belief is not enough and you want me to prove scientifically we won't solve it? And the thread drags on...

 

[Andrew Everard]

Jack White:Got me there Andrew. I just believe we won't solve this tonight. But I reckon my belief is not enough and you want me to prove scientifically we won't solve it? And the thread drags on...

No, I want you to prove it's dragging on, and not just that it seems to be going slowly due to sheer tedium, the fact everyone's basically saying the same things over and over again...

 

[Craig M.]

i assume then that the sceptics are saying it's expectation bias that explains believers hearing differences? wouldn't that apply the other way as well, if you expect no difference you hear no difference? my own recent experience makes me think it might, after changing my interconnects for some a shop gave me to demo, i sat down to listen thinking there would be no audible difference - i'd read enough forum threads to make me think this would be quite likely - and lo and behold, no apparent difference. it was only when i'd decided i'd put that one to bed, and put my own interconnect back in that i noticed a definite difference. i wasn't listening out for it, but it was quite obvious.

 

[hammill]

chebby:

MattSPL:Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

I noticed you use ATC speakers. They recommend a basic 79 strand OFC copper cable of 2.5mm2 cross section (in their user's manual). QED classic 79 strand (2.5mm2) is £1.50 - £2 a metre and QED Original 79 strand is £3.50 a metre.

Rick (who seems to sell truckloads of ATC's) uses a £3 a metre cable.

PMC use an inexpensive (£4.40 a metre when I checked) Van Damme multi strand copper cable for their professional installations. (6mm for the long runs involved.)

Monitor Audio recommend their own 'Pureflow' cable (only £6 a metre) and use it as internal wiring.

Harbeth state....

"The best approach seems to us to be experimentation with cables but having a long-term reference to fall back onto, such as humble 79 strand (or similar). Work with your dealer to find the best solution for your unique set-up."

...so although they encourage experimentation, they obviously have no qualms about the use of a 'humble' 79 strand cable when they refer to it as a 'long term reference'. (Their cheapest domestic speaker is £1350)

I decided not to go down the route of cable experimentation but just follow the manufacturer recommendations which is (obviously) Naim NACA5. Unfortunately it was £15 a metre, but I will save money in the long run by being happy that I have maximised any system synergy there is to be gained by using all Naim cabling and not wanting to keep chopping and changing.

Very good post.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:

No, I want you to prove it's dragging on, and not just that it seems to be going slowly due to sheer tedium, the fact everyone's basically saying the same things over and over again...

Oh no, Andrew, you're getting me all wrong. Let me rephrase it, cite some proof of disputable origin, quote someone else's opinion and add a near-insult. That will clear things up...

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:

Whichever, I feel another one of knightout's interminable and often hilariously misspelt lectures coming on.

Good lord, is that the time...?

Sorry no more today, still maybe tomorrow. I am glad you find my posts hilarious, I read forums for entertainment value. If the misspelling grates, I will use a spell checker in future, I am dyslexic so am usually oblivious to my atrocious spelling.

 

[Anonymous]

MattSPL:
I can't believe this topic has gone on so long when its obvious that cables do sound different and are worth spending money on.

Those people who dont think so either have a system of low resolution, unable to show differences in sound quality, have never heard a good cable or system, or are just fooling themselfs buying a good hifi when they obviously can't tell the difference between a Sony mini system and a high end Naim system.

Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

I don't get the argument that if you don't hear a difference in cables and interconnects you should be using a cheap Sony mini system. I actually love the sound of my Arcam seperates and MA speakers.

When I upgraded my MA BR5's to RS6's I heard a massive difference that totally justified the money spent. The same applied when I upgraded a Marantz CD5001 to an Arcam CD192 (obviously as it costs way more).. My ears can't tell the difference between cheap and expensive speaker wire and interconnects though.

Expensive cables and interconnects are just jewelry for your setup IMHO.

 

[plastic penguin]

Ollie.:MattSPL:

I can't believe this topic has gone on so long when its obvious that cables do sound different and are worth spending money on.

Those people who dont think so either have a system of low resolution, unable to show differences in sound quality, have never heard a good cable or system, or are just fooling themselfs buying a good hifi when they obviously can't tell the difference between a Sony mini system and a high end Naim system.

Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

I don't get the argument that if you don't hear a difference in cables and interconnects you should be using a cheap Sony mini system. I actually love the sound of my Arcam seperates and MA speakers.

When I upgraded my MA BR5's to RS6's I heard a massive difference that totally justified the money spent. The same applied when I upgraded a Marantz CD5001 to an Arcam CD192 (obviously as it costs way more).. My ears can't tell the difference between cheap and expensive speaker wire and interconnects though.

Expensive cables and interconnects are just jewelry for your setup IMHO.

Igglebert hit the nail on the head - numerous pages ago - that everyone here's something different. This what makes hi-fi so wonderful (and occasionally frustrating), it's so subjective. If you can't here a difference with cables then it's probably the cheapest upgrade known to humans.

As to the OP's thread.....do you really need three guesses?

 

[Alec]

As you all know, i wouldnt bother with cables of any sort; they dont half get in the way. However, chebby's last post makes me want to start some kind of religious movement in his honour.

 

[MattSPL]

Ollie.:MattSPL:

I can't believe this topic has gone on so long when its obvious that cables do sound different and are worth spending money on.

Those people who dont think so either have a system of low resolution, unable to show differences in sound quality, have never heard a good cable or system, or are just fooling themselfs buying a good hifi when they obviously can't tell the difference between a Sony mini system and a high end Naim system.

Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

I don't get the argument that if you don't hear a difference in cables and interconnects you should be using a cheap Sony mini system. I actually love the sound of my Arcam seperates and MA speakers.

When I upgraded my MA BR5's to RS6's I heard a massive difference that totally justified the money spent. The same applied when I upgraded a Marantz CD5001 to an Arcam CD192 (obviously as it costs way more).. My ears can't tell the difference between cheap and expensive speaker wire and interconnects though.

Expensive cables and interconnects are just jewelry for your setup IMHO.

What i am saying is that, if you are capable of hearing the difference between a mini system and a proper seperates setup, then you must be able to hear the difference in cables because the difference between various cables is often huge.

 

[PJPro]

knightout:Andrew Everard:

Whichever, I feel another one of knightout's interminable and often hilariously misspelt lectures coming on.

Good lord, is that the time...?

Sorry no more today, still maybe tomorrow. I am glad you find my posts hilarious, I read forums for entertainment value. If the misspelling grates, I will use a spell checker in future, I am dyslexic so am usually oblivious to my atrocious spelling.

knightout, I'd like to congratulate you on your posts in this thread. For me, they represent a reasoned, rational and thoughtful approach to the debate. Great reading.

 

[MattSPL]

chebby:

MattSPL:Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

I noticed you use ATC speakers. They recommend a basic 79 strand OFC copper cable of 2.5mm2 cross section (in their user's manual). QED classic 79 strand (2.5mm2) is £1.50 - £2 a metre and QED Original 79 strand is £3.50 a metre.

Rick (who seems to sell truckloads of ATC's) uses a £3 a metre cable.

PMC use an inexpensive (£4.40 a metre when I checked) Van Damme multi strand copper cable for their professional installations. (6mm for the long runs involved.)

Monitor Audio recommend their own 'Pureflow' cable (only £6 a metre) and use it as internal wiring.

Harbeth state....

"The best approach seems to us to be experimentation with cables but having a long-term reference to fall back onto, such as humble 79 strand (or similar). Work with your dealer to find the best solution for your unique set-up."

...so although they encourage experimentation, they obviously have no qualms about the use of a 'humble' 79 strand cable when they refer to it as a 'long term reference'. (Their cheapest domestic speaker is £1350)

I decided not to go down the route of cable experimentation but just follow the manufacturer recommendations which is (obviously) Naim NACA5. Unfortunately it was £15 a metre, but I will save money in the long run by being happy that I have maximised any system synergy there is to be gained by using all Naim cabling and not wanting to keep chopping and changing.

These recomended cables are based on compatability in an electrical sense. If you use a lesser cable than they describe then its very likely to melt.
When you talk about speaker cables, without mentioning makes of cable its hard to recomend anything other that a 79 atrand or 2.5sqmm cable. Once you move away from those basic descriptions you run out of options other than to start using makers names.

 

[MattSPL]

My main issue here isn't speaker cables however as i know that these bring the least improvements out of all the cables.

Im interested mainly in power cables which i have found to bring greater improvements than any other cables in my system but some people still cannot get there heads around this

 

[Andrew Everard]

knightout:Sorry no more today, still maybe tomorrow. I am glad you find my posts hilarious, I read forums for entertainment value. If the misspelling grates, I will use a spell checker in future, I am dyslexic so am usually oblivious to my atrocious spelling.

Of course, sorry, I should have guessed.

 

[robjcooper]

Forget cables, I found one of these works wonders......

http://www.adelaidevet.com.au/files/images/Elizabethan-collar.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

MattSPL:chebby:

MattSPL:Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

I noticed you use ATC speakers. They recommend a basic 79 strand OFC copper cable of 2.5mm2 cross section (in their user's manual). QED classic 79 strand (2.5mm2) is £1.50 - £2 a metre and QED Original 79 strand is £3.50 a metre.

Rick (who seems to sell truckloads of ATC's) uses a £3 a metre cable.

PMC use an inexpensive (£4.40 a metre when I checked) Van Damme multi strand copper cable for their professional installations. (6mm for the long runs involved.)

Monitor Audio recommend their own 'Pureflow' cable (only £6 a metre) and use it as internal wiring.

Harbeth state....

"The best approach seems to us to be experimentation with cables but having a long-term reference to fall back onto, such as humble 79 strand (or similar). Work with your dealer to find the best solution for your unique set-up."

...so although they encourage experimentation, they obviously have no qualms about the use of a 'humble' 79 strand cable when they refer to it as a 'long term reference'. (Their cheapest domestic speaker is £1350)

I decided not to go down the route of cable experimentation but just follow the manufacturer recommendations which is (obviously) Naim NACA5. Unfortunately it was £15 a metre, but I will save money in the long run by being happy that I have maximised any system synergy there is to be gained by using all Naim cabling and not wanting to keep chopping and changing.

These recomended cables are based on compatability in an electrical sense. If you use a lesser cable than they describe then its very likely to melt.
When you talk about speaker cables, without mentioning makes of cable its hard to recomend anything other that a 79 atrand or 2.5sqmm cable. Once you move away from those basic descriptions you run out of options other than to start using makers names.

It's a bit more than that. If you read the stuff Alan Shaw (Harbeth) writes he's pretty clear that he believes fancy cables are a waste of money (besides bringing cosmetic benefits).

I'm with Chebby in that I'm happy to stick with amps, ICs and speaker cable from one manufacturer - takes all the guesswork and temptation to spend out of the equation. Also, my other half finds it terminally dull if I mention speakers or amps - she'd probably leave me if I started harping on about cables

 

[visionary]

I remember, coz I'm an old git, an advert that Quad ran many years ago that started "the perfect amplifier is a piece of wire with gain"

I wonder what sort of wire THEY had in mind?

I prefer the wire from the south facing slopes and believe that "terroir" is enormously important

 

[Anonymous]

visionary:
I prefer the wire from the south facing slopes and believe that "terroir" is enormously important

...now that's the sort of wire I don't mind funding with my purchases...

 

[Anonymous]

...will it affect the taste I wonder...

 

[MUSICRAFT]

chebby:

MattSPL:Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?

I noticed you use ATC speakers. They recommend a basic 79 strand OFC copper cable of 2.5mm2 cross section (in their user's manual). QED classic 79 strand (2.5mm2) is £1.50 - £2 a metre and QED Original 79 strand is £3.50 a metre.

Rick (who seems to sell truckloads of ATC's) uses a £3 a metre cable.

PMC use an inexpensive (£4.40 a metre when I checked) Van Damme multi strand copper cable for their professional installations. (6mm for the long runs involved.)

Monitor Audio recommend their own 'Pureflow' cable (only £6 a metre) and use it as internal wiring.

Harbeth state....

"The best approach seems to us to be experimentation with cables but having a long-term reference to fall back onto, such as humble 79 strand (or similar). Work with your dealer to find the best solution for your unique set-up."

...so although they encourage experimentation, they obviously have no qualms about the use of a 'humble' 79 strand cable when they refer to it as a 'long term reference'. (Their cheapest domestic speaker is £1350)

I decided not to go down the route of cable experimentation but just follow the manufacturer recommendations which is (obviously) Naim NACA5. Unfortunately it was £15 a metre, but I will save money in the long run by being happy that I have maximised any system synergy there is to be gained by using all Naim cabling and not wanting to keep chopping and changing.

Hi chebby

Yes that is right. I'll say it again as it was many pages ago!

Speaker cable - at the moment i mostly use/stock/sell a generic cable at around £3/m

Mains cables - at the moment all of our equipment is connected to the mains using the mains cables supplied with the components

Mains extension blocks - at the moment all the mains blocks that i use are from Wilkinson stores around £5 each

Interconnects - there are some cables that i can tell the difference and therefore i am happy to personally use them and also recommend them to my clients

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

To: Igglebert

I 'm sorry for hijacking such an intelectual thread, but I have a question for you.

In your sig you say that you have a slate on TOP of your sub. and as I too have a REL Quake sitting on a slab of marble, I wondered why you preferred it t'other way round!

Bob.

 

[Anonymous]

Hang on, your whole argument has been along the lines of ÿ'whether a cable costs more or not, there's no difference in sound - it's all marketing rubbish.'
Yet you've just stated that "When I upgraded my MA BR5's to RS6's I heard a massive difference that totally justified the money spent. The same applied when I upgraded a Marantz CD5001 to an Arcam CD192 (obviouslyÿ as it costs way more)."
So how can a CD players performance be 'obviously'ÿbetter simply because it costs way more, yet a cables performance couldn't? Or do you simply buy into price/quality perception (the very thing your original post complains about) when it comes to CD players, but not cables?
And again, define cheap and expensive cables.