Honestly, do you think Interconnects and Cables make a difference?

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.

Andy Clough

New member
Apr 27, 2004
776
0
0
Visit site
JohnDuncan:Serenity:everyone in the WHF offices saluted as he passed by

Well that's what I think those hand signals are?

If that's what you want to believe John, that's fine by me.
emotion-4.gif
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
Serenity:Now, my picture of Dear JD is the guy in the overalls who carries the new kit from the delivery van to the offices and demo rooms - but never get a chance to listen or tap at a keyboard.
emotion-9.gif


JD has nothing to do with equipment deliveries either, but I suspect spends much of his time hammering away at keyboards keeping this leaky clapped out old boiler of a content management system/forum set-up running as well as it does.

He even has hints of the 'it cannae take much more, captain' accent, too...
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Andy Clough:
JohnDuncan:Serenity:everyone in the WHF offices saluted as he passed by

Well that's what I think those hand signals are?

If that's what you want to believe John, that's fine by me.
emotion-4.gif


I get the same when I accidentally cut people up at the roundabout. Presumably ex-AA drivers or somesuch - good to see the age of politesse isn't dead.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
My wife can't tell the difference between a red Mini and a yellow Range Rover, but refuses to believe it has anything to do with her senses, brain or interests. So I have long ago agreed that that they are one and the same car. And why not? Our discussions on the subject were highly amusing however.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The best sound upgrade you can make is a free one. Just cup your hands behind your ears.

Et voila - instant soundstage widening and atmospherics.
 

Craig M.

New member
Mar 20, 2008
127
0
0
Visit site
what i don't get about the whole "tilting your head alters the sound" argument, which i'm sure is true, is why don't i notice this when just sat listening to music? nodding my head to the music doesn't make it change in character all the time. i don't bother straining to hear differences either, i think if it doesn't make itself apparent and i have to sit wondering if there is a difference, it's too subtle/possibly not there, and aren't bothered about such things.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
And what pray tell do youmean by a 'reasonable amount'?

The discussion continues.....
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Some differences between cables do exist. Bell wire is unlikely to have adequate gauge to be good as speaker cable. If A/B comparisons are not level matched, slight differences in volume will be perceived as increased clarity and quality rather than volume. Listener position in non-acoustically treated rooms, will alter what sound they hear due to comb filtering.

But many of the differences fall into the unmeasurable but audible category, for these it depends on what you count as evidence.

One group believes that listening tests are the definitive proof. If I take a pile of cables home and I hear differences between them, that is proof. If a loved one walks in and remarks the hifi sounds different, more proof, the existence of a whole industry supplying cables and claiming differences, expert reviewers raving about differences, other people posting that they too hear a difference. What more proof could they or any reasonable person want. After all trials rely on witnesses and juries deciding matters of far greater importance.

The other group to which I belong, decry all that proof as worthless. They state that listening tests are fundamentally flawed, due to the very nature of how human perception represents reality, memory of what was perceived, and intuitive reasoning seeking to make sense of the world. That such has been known for decades and is taken as established fact in science like psycho acoustics and industry professional bodies like the Audio Engineering Society. The only listening tests they give any credence to are controlled double blind tests that meet strict criteria, and have to show a statically significantly greater than pure chance result, and even these have to be replicated by others.

The problem is we implicitly trust and rely on our perception of reality and the intuitive conclusions made based on those perceptions. I could not get up walk to the kitchen and make a cup of tea if I did not. It is completely counterintuitive that they could be wrong. The trust is so implicit and the idea it might be misplaced so counterintuitive that people would rather believe in unmeasurable but audible differences, that cease to be audible in controlled double blind tests, but are significant and easily heard in the comfort of your own home. This is the line taken by many hifi experts. It is not a line of reasoning I am willing to spend money on cables on
 

Peter Larsen

New member
Oct 16, 2008
106
0
0
Visit site
Audio interconnects YES.

HDMI NO (or that is yes, if your cables run longer than 5 meters. HDMI sends data via packets just like a data connection, so either you get picture or sound or you don't)

I have been messing with cables since I was 14 years old (36 now) and I know that they do make a difference. Not to say that the most expensive cable automatically is the best. Sometimes cheap cables may match your components better than a expensive one. You need to experiment.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Things are on the up for you JD.

Without you, all the rest of the motley crew would be in the work-house by now!

Hence - put in for that long awaited pay rise. If the WHF empire cant afford a reasonable bit of s/w to manage a few pages, they had better stop you from even thinking of defecting to company offering a reasonable wage.

emotion-5.gif


S
 

batonwielder

Well-known member
May 13, 2008
32
2
18,545
Visit site
knightout:
The problem is we implicitly trust and rely on our perception of reality and the intuitive conclusions made based on those perceptions. I could not getup walk to the kitchen and make a cup of tea if I did not. It is completely counterintuitive that they could be wrong. The trust is so implicit and the idea it might be misplaced so counterintuitive that people would rather believe in unmeasurable but audible differences, that cease to be audible in controlled double blind tests, but are significant and easily heard in the comfort of your own home. This is the line taken by many hifi experts. It is not a line of reasoning I am willing to spend money on cables on.

Husserl would've had a field day on any hifi forum.
 

Xanderzdad

New member
Jun 25, 2008
146
0
0
Visit site
The REALLY big question is:

Do these type of debates cause stress or laughter. I am in the laughter camp. Brilliant!!

Until we can build a perfect artificial ear and brain then I think we can conclude it is all a little more complex than it may appear.

The earth is flat. We are at the centre of the universe. et al
 

jaxwired

Well-known member
Feb 7, 2009
284
6
18,895
Visit site
bennyboy71:The best sound upgrade you can make is a free one. Just cup your hands behind your ears.

Et voila - instant soundstage widening and atmospherics.

I don't know about that, I've never noticed a difference, but I've got pretty good hearing already...

istock_ears.jpg
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
It is easier to give examples of human perception, memory of what we perceive and intuitive reason reaching the wrong conclusion and being virtually impossible to override through logical reasoning using visual perception, rather than auditory perception.

The well known Adelbert Ames perspective demonstration/illusion of a odd shaped room with two people in it. It is usually perceived as a normal rectangular room with one very tiny and one normal sized person in it. It relies on the fact that it is axiomatic that you perceive the objects in the room as being the things that are odd sized and not the room, despite knowing logically that an unfeasibly tiny person is less likely than an odd shaped room. This illusion does not work on people who are from cultures where non-rectangular rooms are commonly encounters, they see the room as the thing that is odd shaped. It is assumption that has been made/learned intuitively by the brain about the shapes of rooms and is then being used intuitively to interpret reality. Memory and context shapes what you perceive as reality.

Unlearned instinctive faulty perception and conclusions are also normal. For example in the Eleanor Gibson visual cliff experiment you have a floor then a severe drop of several ft then a continuation of the floor at the bottom, then a severe rise and a continuation of the floor at its original level. You tile the floor and sides of the drop and floor at the bottom, etc.. with square tiles. Now you fix a very thick piece of load bearing glass across the whole floor. An adult will walk across the glass over the drop, but a baby will not crawl over the precipice. Even if mummy is seen by baby to walk over the precipice and place teddy over the precipice, even if mummy calls to baby and encourages baby to come to her across the precipice. As far as baby is concerned mummy and teddy are all somehow levitating, baby knows baby can not fly, baby will fall, no way baby going over the edge.

Dependance on perception and intuitive understanding of reality being reliable is extreme. Inversion goggles reverse depth perception. Put them on an adult and you get momentary confusion and bewilderment. No they were not cruel enough to put them on babies. Probably because if you put them on a monkey, the monkey rapidly refuses to move, for days, it would rather go without food and water, it can no longer comprehend how its moving relates to physical reality, eventually driven by desperation it will move slowly backwards.

Then you have cause and effect. The human mind seeks to organize a otherwise confusing world. It will make cause and effect links when all there is pure coincidence or expectation of effect. That reasoning can then shape how you perceive reality in future, the easily heard difference that becomes impossible to reliably hear in a controlled double blind test. Perception focuses on aspects of reality, if you listen to an identical piece of music twice you may notice different things, if you expect it to sound as if it has a wider sound stage or what have you, you are likely to be listening for the effect, and more likely to hear it than someone who believes it will sound just the same as last time. Perception will even fill in gaps based on previous experience or expectation. It is far from reliable.

Fortunately humans have the ability to comprehend that their perceptions, memory of what they perceive, and intuitive reasoning enabling them to comprehend reality, all interact to shape how they perceive the world and can all prove to be fallible. I would rather trust science, measurements, controlled double blind tests, than my own perceptions and intuitive conclusions, at least until the scientists start experimenting on me.

With the visual examples it is easy for someone, to comprehend that their senses, past experience, intuitive understanding of the world have all proven wrong. All it takes is to walk across the odd shaped room towards the tiny person. To see someone walk over the precipice and place a foot on the glass over the edge. To try and pick up an object or walk wearing inversion goggles. With the hifi cables the proof that your senses, past experience, intuitive understanding of the world are all causing you to perceive something which may not be true, comes from a sensor reading no change or the results of a controlled double blind test. That proof is a lot more difficult to accept than proof provide by your own interaction with the physical world.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
knightout:

It is easier to give examples of human perception, memory of what we perceive and intuitive reason reaching the wrong conclusion and being virtually impossible to override through logical reasoning using visual perception, rather than auditory perception.

The well known Adelbert Ames perspective demonstration/illusion of a odd shaped room with two people in it. It is usually perceived as a normal rectangular room with one very tiny and one normal sized person in it. It relies on the fact that it is axomatic that you peceive the objects in the room as being the things that are odd sized and not the room, despite knowing logically that an unfeasably tiny person is less likely than an odd shaped room. This illusion does not work on people who are from cultures where non-rectangular rooms are commonly encounters, they see the room as the thing that is odd shaped. It is assumption that has been made/learned intuatively by the brain about the shapes of rooms and is then being used intuitively to interpert reality. Memory and context shapes what you perceive as reality.

Unlearned faulty perception and conclusions are also normal. For example in the Eleanor Gibson visual cliff experiment you have a floor then a severe drop of several ft then a continuation of the floor at the bottom, then a severe rise and a continuation of the floor at its original level. You tile the floor and sides of the drop and floor at the bottom, etc.. with square tiles. Now you fix a very thick piece of load bearing glass across the whole floor. An adult will walk across the glass over the drop, but a baby will not crawl over the precipice. Even if mummy is seen by baby to walk over the precipice and place teddy over the precipice, even if mummy calls to baby and encourages baby to come to her across the precipice. As far as baby is concerned mummy and teddy are all somehow levitating, baby knows baby can not fly, baby will fall, no way baby going over the edge.

Dependance on perception and intuitive understanding of reality being reliable is extreme. Inversion goggles reverse depth perception. Put them on an adult and you get momentary confusion and bewilderment. No they were not cruel enought to put them on babies. Probably because if you put them on a monkey, the monkey rapidly refuses to move, for days, it would rather go without food and water, it can nolonger comprehend how its moving relates to physical reality, eventually driven by desperation it will move slowly backwards.

Then you have cause and effect. The human mind seeks to organize a otherwise confusing world. It will make cause and effect links when all there is pure coincidence or expectation of effect. That reasoning can then shape how you perceive reality in future, the easily heard difference that becomes impossible to reliably hear in a controled double blind test. Perception focusses on aspects of reality, if you listen to an identical piece of music twice you may notice different things, if you expect it to sound as if it has a wider soundstage or what have you, you are likely to be listening for the effect, and more likely to hear it than someone who believes it will sound just the same as last time. Perception will even fill in gaps based on previous experience or expectation. It is far from reliable.

Fortunately humans have the ability to comprehend that their perceptions, memory of what they perceive, and intuitive reasoning enabling them to comprehend reality, all interact to shape how they perceive the world and can all prove to be fallible. I would rather trust science, measurements, controlled double blind tests, than my own perceptions and intuative conclusions, at least untill the scientists start experimenting on me.

thats waaaaay too technical for me ...

but this always works for me .... drink lots of acohol whilst listening to your stereo .... helps your ears relax and adjust ....

and the last thing you think about are cables and interconnects (and to top it all, you enjoy the music!) .... cheap solution and problem solved!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Clare Newsome:

So, a gazillion posts in, we've got to:

3639alcohol%20L.jpg


emotion-2.gif
Well Clare, I'm counting 2736 'yes it does' and 2728 'no it doesn't'. So in a matter of minutes we should have a definite, scientific answer to the question that kept audiophiles busy since Edison. Exciting!
 

MattSPL

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2010
19
0
18,520
Visit site
I can't believe this topic has gone on so long when its obvious that cables do sound different and are worth spending money on.

Those people who dont think so either have a system of low resolution, unable to show differences in sound quality, have never heard a good cable or system, or are just fooling themselfs buying a good hifi when they obviously can't tell the difference between a Sony mini system and a high end Naim system.

Here's a question; Why do some/most high end speakers use very good quality, sometimes silver cable for the internal wiring of their speakers when they could save money and use 50p a meter bell wire like the sceptics are talking about?
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts