DSP and room correction

[Gazzip]

Fiddling around with and creating various equalisation curves in Dirac Live this morning has made it clearer than ever to me just how important some kind of room treatment and/or DSP correction really is. Unless you are really lucky with your room Acoustics of course! A lift or reduction of only a couple of dB across a given frequency range can make the difference between “wow” or “pa” in musical enjoyment terms.

When I turn off the DSP and listen to the music unfiltered I always have a wry smile to myself and wonder how on earth I ever put up with it like that. So much of the music’s subtlety was missing, masked by big humps in the LF frequency range! Big thanks to ellisdj for setting me on the right path!

 

[Vladimir]

Which what DSP essentially is, just in the digital domain, without any potentiometers and sliders messing with the signal purity.

Well done boys.

Spread the word.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Which what DSP essentially is, just in the digital domain, without any potentiometers and sliders messing with the signal purity.

Well done boys. Spread the word.

Love my Devialet for this. Loads of things to fiddle with to get the sound just right without compromising the signal.

 

[DocG]

I love what DSP does, both with the DEQX and the Devialet — no going back for me! But in both cases I just did the measurements c.q. loaded the file and was done with it.

Just listening since — not a tinkerer, I guess... (though I spent a helluva lot of time trying to program the Logitech remote for the DEQX system — work in progress — but that’s another story...)

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Fiddling around with and creating various equalisation curves in Dirac Live this morning has made it clearer than ever to me just how important some kind of room treatment and/or DSP correction really is. Unless you are really lucky with your room Acoustics of course! A lift or reduction of only a couple of dB across a given frequency range can make the difference between “wow” or “pa” in musical enjoyment terms.

When I turn off the DSP and listen to the music unfiltered I always have a wry smile to myself and wonder how on earth I ever put up with it like that. So much of the music’s subtlety was missing, masked by big humps in the LF frequency range! Big thanks to ellisdj for setting me on the right path!

how does it work gazzip. Is it in your amp so effectively a dsp setting, and you change the curve like the arcam amps. Or an add on onto your Bryston amps. How do you know what to change from the curve, can you use microphones from the amp to test etc. I’ve heard some people rave about Dirac etc, but if I listen at modest levels and room interfearance doesn’t have so much an effect, why does anyone need dsp. It might be more an issue on your big pmcs compared to smaller speakers with smaller drivers, especially if being played louder. I’m playing devils advocate and stand corrected on what it can do.

 

[Gazzip]

Fiddling around with and creating various equalisation curves in Dirac Live this morning has made it clearer than ever to me just how important some kind of room treatment and/or DSP correction really is. Unless you are really lucky with your room Acoustics of course! A lift or reduction of only a couple of dB across a given frequency range can make the difference between “wow” or “pa” in musical enjoyment terms.

When I turn off the DSP and listen to the music unfiltered I always have a wry smile to myself and wonder how on earth I ever put up with it like that. So much of the music’s subtlety was missing, masked by big humps in the LF frequency range! Big thanks to ellisdj for setting me on the right path!

how does it work gazzip. Is it in your amp so effectively a dsp setting, and you change the curve like the arcam amps. Or an add on onto your Bryston amps. How do you know what to change from the curve, can you use microphones from the amp to test etc. I’ve heard some people rave about Dirac etc, but if I listen at modest levels and room interfearance doesn’t have so much an effect, why does anyone need dsp. It might be more an issue on your big pmcs compared to smaller speakers with smaller drivers, especially if being played louder. I’m playing devils advocate and stand corrected on what it can do.

Exactly like an Arcam amp I think? They use Dirac, right?

You can also buy Dirac Live hardware from a company called MiniDSP and sit it in between your digital source and your DAC. I used to do that but now I have the software version installed on my music PC/server doing the same thing. All sound processing and correction is done in the digital domain before your FLAC/WAV/ALAC reaches your DAC, so analogue components don’t degrade the signal.

Have you measured your room at your normal listening levels to establish that everything is indeed A1? I had NO idea that mine wasn’t until I measured it. Ignorance is bliss they say, but the improvement I have achieved makes me disagree with that school of thought.

Plenty of DSP software out there with a free trial (including Dirac BTW) if you can get hold of a calibrated microphone and a laptop...

 

[Gazzip]

.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That’s very interesting. Thanks. I will check it out. I didn’t know it was in the digital domain.

I suppose your music server is a digital device which is also a streamer? So you can then send it to your dacs?

I haven’t measured my room, but it got my thinking yesterday as I sit quite close to speakers at home in a long thinksh room, and at Audio t they had my pmcs further away in a square room which sounded very different but very similar Cyrus and pmc set up.

it would be interesting if you could get people around who have experience and set up a demo, but I suppose it’s possible to trial a mic and the kit, to see what it does yourself.

What exactly do you measure at the listening position. Just different measurements accross each frequency, to get to the graph presumably.

 

[lpv]

what mic, computer etc do you use for measurements?

 

[abacus]

Dirac Live Setup Tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVQhI7fPank

 

[newlash09]

I have been considering adding Dirac live to my setup for sometime. But iam confused if I should go tri-amping first with an active cross over.

Iam happy with my present setup. However i need to keep tinkering to get my kicks. I thick the next noticable improvement in sound quality will come with better amplification. But unfortunately I can never afford those bryston's and superior amps. So I was thinking if tri-amping with 3 modest amps might give me the benefits Iam looking for. The parasound stays. I can add two more stereo amps around the 1000 pound mark , each good at what it does , bass, mid range and treble. Any thoughts if this will work, or will it all get all too complicated too fast 🙂

 

[andyjm]

For anyone who cares, Paul Dirac was considered one of the finest scientists of the 20th century. The Dirac delta function (infinitely thin, infinitely tall with an area of one) is one of the cornerstones of digital signal processing - which I guess is why the company is called Dirac.

He was also extremely odd, so he would have fitted in around here just fine.

 

[Gazzip]

I have been considering adding Dirac live to my setup for sometime. But iam confused if I should go tri-amping first with an active cross over.

Iam happy with my present setup. However i need to keep tinkering to get my kicks. I thick the next noticable improvement in sound quality will come with better amplification. But unfortunately I can never afford those bryston's and superior amps. So I was thinking if tri-amping with 3 modest amps might give me the benefits Iam looking for. The parasound stays. I can add two more stereo amps around the 1000 pound mark , each good at what it does , bass, mid range and treble. Any thoughts if this will work, or will it all get all too complicated too fast 🙂

Hi Newlash, you would have to rip the passive crossover out of your PMC’s to use an active. Are you sure you would want to do that?

 

[newlash09]

I wouldn't mind getting the passive crossovers out of the equation. I have disassembled the PMC's twice in the recent past. I read that sometimes, the cross over does more than what the name means. And might also have additional caps for balancing channels out. I hope that is not the case with these PMC's. But other wise,, I'd have no regrets removing the cross over and sealing the cabinets back.

 

[Gazzip]

what mic, computer etc do you use for measurements?

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

I use the same PC that serves my music files for measurements. You just install the Dirac software, plug the mic in to an available USB port and away you go.

The Dirac software has two elements: 1) measurement, calibration and filter design. 2) implements your filters and does the actual DSP.

The measurements (10 or 12 of them) are all taken around the listening position, so I would advise you but a mic stand to do this bit. The software runs a sine wave sweep from 20Hz to 20KHz for each measurement, which upon completion plots an FR chart for your speakers at your listening position. This can then be equalised to a flat response or tweaked by editing a curve to increase or decrease frequencies across the range.

As Vladimir stated it is essentially a graphic equaliser. The only key differences are it does it digitally, and (crucially) it and consequently you know what your speakers are doing in the context of your room.

The System DogG describes sounds even more sophisticated and really interesting... pricey though.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Can Dirac be incorporated into a pc/ nas /server based system....plenty of info on what it does but now how you actually play your music through it.....

 

[davedotco]

I am something of a numpty when it comes to applying computer technology to hi-fi, so I mam looking for assistance.

I have a system that comprises a one piece streamer/dac/preamp feeding into a pair of Adam speakers and would love to be able to run room correction in dsp. I am prepared to change my electronics, so if it can be implimented more easily with specific streamer/dac/preamp models that would be fine.

Starting from the basics, would anyone have a few minutes to explain how I would go obout this? Start with the hardware setup, then software requirements and how to run it.

I have a recent Macbook Pro to run the software and know that I would need a calibrated microphone, any help would be much appreciated.

 

[abacus]

I am something of a numpty when it comes to applying computer technology to hi-fi, so I mam looking for assistance.

I have a system that comprises a one piece streamer/dac/preamp feeding into a pair of Adam speakers and would love to be able to run room correction in dsp. I am prepared to change my electronics, so if it can be implimented more easily with specific streamer/dac/preamp models that would be fine.

Starting from the basics, would anyone have a few minutes to explain how I would go obout this? Start with the hardware setup, then software requirements and how to run it.

I have a recent Macbook Pro to run the software and know that I would need a calibrated microphone, any help would be much appreciated.

You need a DSP Unit (The aforementioned https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd or similar is fine) which you connect between your pre-amp and speakers, you then need a calibration microphone (You can get one with the DSP) and a computer to load the software on, then you just follow the instructions to set it up. (The link in my previous post may also help)

Bill

 

[insider9]

I am something of a numpty when it comes to applying computer technology to hi-fi, so I mam looking for assistance.

I have a system that comprises a one piece streamer/dac/preamp feeding into a pair of Adam speakers and would love to be able to run room correction in dsp. I am prepared to change my electronics, so if it can be implimented more easily with specific streamer/dac/preamp models that would be fine.

Starting from the basics, would anyone have a few minutes to explain how I would go obout this? Start with the hardware setup, then software requirements and how to run it.

I have a recent Macbook Pro to run the software and know that I would need a calibrated microphone, any help would be much appreciated.

You need a DSP Unit (The aforementioned https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd or similar is fine) which you connect between your pre-amp and speakers, you then need a calibration microphone (You can get one with the DSP) and a computer to load the software on, then you just follow the instructions to set it up. (The link in my previous post may also help)

Bill

I've used 2x4HD and can highly recommend it.

 

[insider9]

Difficulty with DSP is that there are so many ways to do it that it really requires people to start individual threads as I've used 5 different ways to do it since February and I'm aware of many more.

I agree that room correction whether digital or physical (and preferrably both) should be considered by everyone who's serious about this hobby.

 

[davedotco]

That is a good start though I remain more than a little vague on the detail.

Firstly, what do I actually have to buy? Minidsp in a box I presume, do I need the regular 2x4 or do I need the HD version? Umik mic, obviously but what else, do I need software or is that included and will it run on my Macbook? Where do I actually buy this from?

How about functionality? If I just use the Minidsp between my pre-outs and active speakers (analogue in-out) will the volume control on my streamer/dac/pre still function normally? How about if I use the Toslink out on my unit into the Minidsp, would that be a better option?

I need the operation of the setup to remain as simple as possible (once set up), any suggestions on this?

 

[Gazzip]

That is a good start though I remain more than a little vague on the detail.

Firstly, what do I actually have to buy? Minidsp in a box I presume, do I need the regular 2x4 or do I need the HD version? Umik mic, obviously but what else, do I need software or is that included and will it run on my Macbook? Where do I actually buy this from?

How about functionality? If I just use the Minidsp between my pre-outs and active speakers (analogue in-out) will the volume control on my streamer/dac/pre still function normally? How about if I use the Toslink out on my unit into the Minidsp, would that be a better option?

I need the operation of the setup to remain as simple as possible (once set up), any suggestions on this?

DDC, does your streamer/pre/DAC have the toslink out you mention for use with an outboard DAC for example? I.e. you can output a digital signal directly from the streamer section? Does the streamer/pre/DAC have digital inputs? If yes to both then you could loop Dirac DSP in to the digital signal path like this:

Streamer Out > Dirac In > Dirac Out > DAC In.

Do you have the aforementioned inputs and outputs? Ideal if it does because everything would remain operationally identical for you...

 

[insider9]

Most Minidsp units are fully manual. I value this over the automated Dirac Live. They do give you more if you know more but you need to spend far more time than with Dirac Live. You also need to learn a fair bit about acoustics and psychoacoustics to get the biggest benefits.

Minidsp sells units that include Dirac Live preloaded in them but they cost more. The aforementioned 2x4HD can be upgraded to Dirac Live which is only a firmware upgrade at a cost of $245. You pay for convenience and expertise which is well worth it if you don't want or simply don't have the time.

I would definitely not recommend the basic 2x4. 2x4HD supports FIR filters which are far more powerful as provide you with impulse/phase correction which normal 2x4 doesn't. This is what distinguishes the modern DSP vs old graphics equalisers most.

 

[lpv]

regarding mic and measuring equipment would the below comment by Alan Shaw be of any concern?

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forum/the-science-of-audio/getting-the-best-sound-in-your-room-using-damping-materials/113-testing-room-speaker-acoustics

 

[lpv]

I don’t think you can do this:

Streamer Out > Dirac In > Dirac Out[/b][/u] > DAC In

with minidsp 2x4HD as this unit does not have digital out. it does have optical and usb in and audio out, no digital so you can manipulate sound to your liking but you have to rely on minidsp dac but you can’t output processed signal to your own dac.