"This speaker doesn't need a subwoofer". And why it does.

[AJM1981]

Often I read or hear comments that a subwoofer is not needed with a particular speaker because that speaker has enough bass. Rougly translated it is like a bit of bass given by a regular excellent HIFI speaker makes a subwoofer obsolete.

A subwoofer is kind of a multifunctional speaker in terms of how one can apply it. There are many uses of which the most popular ones are not really the ones to recommend as a reference. Those are for example the use of a sub in a car or home just for the purpose of getting pumping or distorted or explosive bass and almost promoting a sub to being the main speaker as a matter of speaking. A use of which I get the point that people say the thing mentioned.

With this topic I would like to focus on subwoofers for supporting purposes as originally intended and my personal experiences in order to get it right. Which is not difficult.

Why a sub? *
For music reproduction and sound it completes the landscape. The chart below is that of concert instruments.

*Keep in mind that the chart tells something about traditional instruments and that synths and certain sound effects go even deeper.

- Pop music
Produced music should do well on the tiniest of speakers and the biggest. In pop music ground tones of sub frequencies are often rooted by the same note one or even two octaves higher to make it even sound like there is bass on the smallest of speakers or on phone speakers.

Standmounts and Floorstanders
Small bookshelves are the easiest examples of speakers that benefit from a sub. As a better example I would like to take two model speakers that of which people state online that they don't need a sub. A standmount which has a cut off frequency of 49hz and a floorstander of 40hz.

The bass floor of these two go pretty low on their own. Sometimes the lowest frequencies of their limits might also be a bit exaggerated to give the illusion they go deeper than they actually go, but given the chart they just "don't" cover certain frequencies well. Often showing hearable fatigue like a human being trying to go beyond their reach of vocal ability.

How do I get what I need?
- prefer frequency range and settings over brands
Go for quality but when googling or scanning shops look for the kind of sub first and then the brand. Just taking a random sub might mean it is not quite as preferred. For example an older small sub might be well designed to cover a bookshelve speaker but might just go till 30hz. Modern small ones are able to go to 20hz.

- Get a sub that provides 'at least' a cut off frequency option.
This way you can just make the sub extend the spectrum and not overlap. Your regular speakers should do most of the work and your sub only supports when necessary. It will be kind of a lazy sub, but that is what it is and that is fine.

Get the manual of your speaker, search for the cut off frequency and put your sub on this one.

- Avoid using old amps in combination with speaker cable
Use an amp with sub out and tulip cable to unlock all the potential of a modern sub. Literally.

Yes.. It 'is' possible to connect subs to older amps with speaker wire but this way you can most often only use the volume button on the sub and not the other 90% of the controls like the most important ones. I tested this and if this would be my first experience ever with a sub I would have never have used subs again and mine would go to the trash. My test amp probably didnt send out sub frequencies well and my sub sounded like it was pretending to be a normal woofer laying in the way of my own speakers. I think certain older types of subs do slightly better with older amps but by far not as well as the modern ones.

- Make it an extension in volume
The ideal volume is the dial around a quarter to a 20th. A sub should never be more present than the speaker it supports. It should feel as there was nothing more present besides your regular speaker, but with more weight to it.

- Don't go wild on settings,
Settings are fun to play with but some eq settings cut away floor frequencies of the sub. Leave them all to factory default (usually the A setting). Treat settings more as a solution for a certain situation than a preference.

- Phase shifting - leave it alone
May sound interesting to use and go ahead, but it is not meant like that. Only use it when putting a sub 'behind' the spot you are sitting at. Then the reverse polarity shift makes sense as the output sounds straight again.

- Sub size matters, but..
The bigger a regular speaker's cabinet the easier it produces bass. This also applies to a sub. Though there are some nice modern subs of which manufacturers managed to do extremely well trimming them down to smaller sizes and still remain the full spectrum. The smallest B&W sub is what I went for after using a large sub. No visible big box in the living room while there is no trade off in sound. When scaling up to large rooms and real cinema settings power and format become a thing.

"Infrawoofers"
Most subs go down to 20hz. Below that bass becomes something we can sense, but dives into the inaudible. Infrasound is a thing and can make people work on their nerves. Sometimes applied to suspense in movies or sounds some animals produce. In average a regular sub doesn't go infra, but a rotary sub does. However the latter is not really for use at home.

 

[insider9]

I appreciate the post it is an interesting and somewhat controversial subject for purists. Here's a few things to consider. And please don't take it as me trying to put you off.

From room acoustics perspective treating reverberation in bass frequencies is difficult and requires big bass traps (ideally tuned traps). Adding a sub in an untreated room with uncontrolled reverberation is asking for trouble and could potentially kill what's good in a system. Most are not prepared to even use broadband absorption to deal with first reflections which is much smaller than bass traps.

My deadest room reverberation was controlled extremely well down to 120Hz below that it would go up few fold. However bass definition was great. But the room was heavily treated.

I've seen measurements of rooms that have reverberation in bass that is around and above 1 second. Won't name names. In other words this means each note rings for an extra second before it decays. I'm not talking about sub bass. Just bass around 150Hz. Adding sub bass energy would only make things worse, not better. And kill any definition.

Focusing on frequency range is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. The fact you can doesn't mean you should. It is matter of the environment and not needs or wants.

But let's assume you go ahead and do it. In most cases the subwoofer will be placed in the wrong spot. Where speaker placement is important, sub placement in relation to listeners and speakers is even more important. Potential issues other than the sub being too loud are issues with definition and timing.

Finally to properly integrate and have the most benefit from a sub it's best to high pass your main systems. This is to free up your main speakers from low bass duties so they can reproduce midrange better and not to cause phases issues potentially fighting and often smearing bass. This can be difficult and sometimes impossible.

When done right it can be transformational for a system, however most aren't willing to do it properly (placement, room treatment, measured calibration, high passing main speakers).

My post isn't trying to put anyone off using a sub, but it's to warn of difficulties. We already have many who are not willing to do basics with main speaker placement even though they spent good amount of money and wondering why their systems don't sound as good as they should. The last thing we need is people messing up their systems with poorly integrated subs.

Also worth adding. If you're source is vinyl you're unlikely to ever need a sub. If you're source is digital don't fret, even though some instruments are capable of playing notes lower than 40Hz not many ever do. And when they do your room will likely be a limitation to enjoy it. Not putting a downer, mine is.

 

[AJM1981]

Yep..thanks for the addition.

Room treatment should definitely be a chapter too. Maybe the one to start with.

Our living room has a sturdy concrete wall connecting to a wall sized 3 layered glass window. The sub is placed at the corner of these two slightly in front of the wall next to a curtain. On the floor is thick vinyl and a small carpet. These choices were not made for sound but they ended up dampening everything really well. Only thing I added was some foam behind the wall decoration. There is not much need for bass traps altough a coated vertical tube for the cats kind of functions like one, again by pure luck.

My listening volume is not on loud 'listening room concert' or cinema levels as I hear others cranking up volume at the point of dealing with new matter. The room is not deadly damped and it is not on studio measurements either. But the bass is as tight as it possibly can be in a normal living, as are all other frequencies.

I can imagine things get challenging with dry wall, hard floors and extensions that are like echo chambers where even minimal dampening is not accepted as choices for decoration go logically wise ahead of musical ones when living together.

 

[AJM1981]

Finally to properly integrate and have the most benefit from a sub it's best to high pass your main systems. This is to free up your main speakers from low bass duties so they can reproduce midrange better and not to cause phases issues potentially fighting and often smearing bass. This can be difficult and sometimes impossible.

I might miss the point. Is it what you describe what one would get when 'not' using tulip cable from a sub out port on an amp, but using the 'speaker 2 binding posts' instead? When the cut off button and the knob on subs that support one even get disabled.

That configuration as a test here ended up at a situation where cut off frequencies on the lowest half could not be applied and the sub bleeding in all the way to the mid range. To work around that would need the kind of passes as described and even stereo subs, which is challenging.

 

[Ethics Gradient]

You can't generalise. Depends upon room size, listening tastes and a whole lot more. Mine produce bass that's felt as much as heard even in a large room, so I'm out.

 

[Oxfordian]

I am trying to get my head round the new ‘technology’ for many years my hifi has been a car stereo, iPod (gen 2), my laptop or radio, so please bear with with me.

Now my kind hifi dealer has leant me some kit, Quad Solus and ATC SCM7’s (and stands), now I like this very much but, I was struggling to a good sound out of the system unless the ATC’s were played at high levels when they really sang, however this did nothing for my ears.

On the verge of throwing in the towel and giving the kit back, the dealer came to the house and installed something that I did not want, a small REL subwoofer.

I made it very clear that I do not want a sub as part of my hifi, good speakers should be able to fill my room (9ft x 9ft) easily, but I have to say that after a good few hours of listening I really like the sound that has been created, it doesn’t have to be played at high levels, my neighbours have started talking to me again, my wife can listen to TV downstairs without the hifi drowning out Emmerdale or Corrie, and me - well I’m as happy as a pig in s......

The dealer has told me that he has set the sub up to be a lazy operator, it is connected via the amp speaker posts.

After his visit I find that I have a great sound at much lower levels, now I don’t understand all the tech stuff and how it all pulls together and works, all I know is that it does work and I can hear a difference, it is a big step forward and has me tapping away in enjoyment.

At this moment I am a convert, subs can work in hifi, how this is achieved though I haven’t a clue.

 

[AJM1981]

You can't generalise. Depends upon room size, listening tastes and a whole lot more. Mine produce bass that's felt as much as heard even in a large room, so I'm out.

From that perspective of putting the room central it is definitely a good point (against).

Just I think the statement in the title about a speaker is not the general truth as often stated.

 

[AJM1981]

I am trying to get my head round the new ‘technology’ for many years my hifi has been a car stereo, iPod (gen 2), my laptop or radio, so please bear with with me.

Now my kind hifi dealer has leant me some kit, Quad Solus and ATC SCM7’s (and stands), now I like this very much but, I was struggling to a good sound out of the system unless the ATC’s were played at high levels when they really sang, however this did nothing for my ears.

On the verge of throwing in the towel and giving the kit back, the dealer came to the house and installed something that I did not want, a small REL subwoofer.

I made it very clear that I do not want a sub as part of my hifi, good speakers should be able to fill my room (9ft x 9ft) easily, but I have to say that after a good few hours of listening I really like the sound that has been created, it doesn’t have to be played at high levels, my neighbours have started talking to me again, my wife can listen to TV downstairs without the hifi drowning out Emmerdale or Corrie, and me - well I’m as happy as a pig in s......

The dealer has told me that he has set the sub up to be a lazy operator, it is connected via the amp speaker posts.

After his visit I find that I have a great sound at much lower levels, now I don’t understand all the tech stuff and how it all pulls together and works, all I know is that it does work and I can hear a difference, it is a big step forward and has me tapping away in enjoyment.

At this moment I am a convert, subs can work in hifi, how this is achieved though I haven’t a clue.

Nice one, and good to hear. Once owned a Quad amp.. good stuff

But now I have this picture in mind of an audio dealer who just walks into the home and installing a sub by surprise that you did not really wanted. Just wondering about this role.

My old audio dealer seems in sleeping mode. Still existing but hard to reach. Months ago I was about to buy speakers there instead of using other channels but the spider webs are still in my mail box.

 

[insider9]

Yep..thanks for the addition.

Room treatment should definitely be a chapter too. Maybe the one to start with.

Our living room has a sturdy concrete wall connecting to a wall sized 3 layered glass window. The sub is placed at the corner of these two slightly in front of the wall next to a curtain. On the floor is thick vinyl and a small carpet. These choices were not made for sound but they ended up dampening everything really well. Only thing I added was some foam behind the wall decoration. There is not much need for bass traps altough a coated vertical tube for the cats kind of functions like one, again by pure luck.

My listening volume is not on loud 'listening room concert' or cinema levels as I hear others cranking up volume at the point of dealing with new matter. The room is not deadly damped and it is not on studio measurements either. But the bass is as tight as it possibly can be in a normal living, as are all other frequencies.

I can imagine things get challenging with dry wall, hard floors and extensions that are like echo chambers where even minimal dampening is not accepted as choices for decoration go logically wise ahead of musical ones when living together.

Room treatment particularly absorption is very cheap to make yourself. The most expensive element is in fact a good acoustically neutral fabric. Where it can get a little expensive difficult to DIY is diffusion and should you want to make tuned traps.

I'm glad to hear you've considered this and added an element but foam on general doesn't do anything for bass and isn't very effective in midrange either. It can however dampen high frequencies which could be idea if incorrectly placed.

Control of reverberation is about making it even across frequency spectrum. Overdamping in particular frequency range should be avoided.

 

[insider9]

I might miss the point. Is it what you describe what one would get when 'not' using tulip cable from a sub out port on an amp, but using the 'speaker 2 binding posts' instead? When the cut off button and the knob on subs that support one even get disabled.

That configuration as a test here ended up at a situation where cut off frequencies on the lowest half could not be applied and the sub bleeding in all the way to the mid range. To work around that would need the kind of passes as described and even stereo subs, which is challenging.

There's many different ways of doing it. It will all depend on the setup. Very easy to do in many active pro setups with sub acting as a crossover. Easy to DIY also using for instance Minidsp. Also generally easy if you're using a home cinema amp/receiver. However for traditional hifi it's usually very difficult and often impossible.

If you heard your sub in mids then either the crossover is too high and/or sub is set way too high. Which goes back to my earlier point properly designing a system that will work well with a sub is difficult, both gear and room dependent.

 

[Oxfordian]

Nice one, and good to hear. Once owned a Quad amp.. good stuff

But now I have this picture in mind of an audio dealer who just walks into the home and installing a sub by surprise that you did not really wanted. Just wondering about this role.

My old audio dealer seems in sleeping mode. Still existing but hard to reach. Months ago I was about to buy speakers there instead of using other channels but the spider webs are still in my mail box.

Haha, nothing like that that, we spoke on the phone that morning and he asked if he could visit, see how the system was set up, he said he would bring a few things with him to see if he could get the system playing to my satisfaction, he knew I was against having a sub but asked if I would humour him and try one for a few days, see how I got on with it.

I have to say he knows his stuff as I love the set-up. It’s going to be hard to let it go back.

 

[insider9]

I am trying to get my head round the new ‘technology’ for many years my hifi has been a car stereo, iPod (gen 2), my laptop or radio, so please bear with with me.

Now my kind hifi dealer has leant me some kit, Quad Solus and ATC SCM7’s (and stands), now I like this very much but, I was struggling to a good sound out of the system unless the ATC’s were played at high levels when they really sang, however this did nothing for my ears.

On the verge of throwing in the towel and giving the kit back, the dealer came to the house and installed something that I did not want, a small REL subwoofer.

I made it very clear that I do not want a sub as part of my hifi, good speakers should be able to fill my room (9ft x 9ft) easily, but I have to say that after a good few hours of listening I really like the sound that has been created, it doesn’t have to be played at high levels, my neighbours have started talking to me again, my wife can listen to TV downstairs without the hifi drowning out Emmerdale or Corrie, and me - well I’m as happy as a pig in s......

The dealer has told me that he has set the sub up to be a lazy operator, it is connected via the amp speaker posts.

After his visit I find that I have a great sound at much lower levels, now I don’t understand all the tech stuff and how it all pulls together and works, all I know is that it does work and I can hear a difference, it is a big step forward and has me tapping away in enjoyment.

At this moment I am a convert, subs can work in hifi, how this is achieved though I haven’t a clue.

I hope no money changed hands yet. I'd question whether the system is right for you. You didn't want the sub in the first place. You didn't like that you had to crank the volume to get a good balance so the solution is to make you buy more gear?

You effectively getting a loudness button in form of a sub because something isn't right. Difference is loudness button wouldn't be extra few hundreds pounds or more. Shouldn't the system be to your liking for you to part with cash? Can a dealer not provide more appropriate one with a speaker that will do what's required? Alternatively, if all is fine and dandy now, I understand the sub is free?

It's entirely possible that you're listening levels are so low that either a loudness button or a sub is a must. What happens now when you crank the volume? Is the bass overpowering? I hope this doesn't come as over critical.

I'd question how the system was put together. Why SCM7s when low level listening is important? I don't know the conversations with you and the dealer but from the outside it seems bizarre. And the advice clearly doesn't match your expectations (low level listening) or needs (no sub).

 

[nopiano]

I have to say he knows his stuff as I love the set-up. It’s going to be hard to let it go back.

I’m sure he does, and indeed ATC make subwoofers, so they are obviously what some systems and rooms need. There’s nothing like hearing it home, and it sounds like you’ve had great service.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

I hope no money changed hands yet. I'd question whether the system is right for you. You didn't want the sub in the first place. You didn't like that you had to crank the volume to get a good balance so the solution is to make you buy more gear?

You effectively getting a loudness button in form of a sub because something isn't right. Difference is loudness button wouldn't be extra few hundreds pounds or more. Shouldn't the system be to your liking for you to part with cash? Can a dealer not provide more appropriate one with a speaker that will do what's required? Alternatively, if all is fine and dandy now, I understand the sub is free?

It's entirely possible that you're listening levels are so low that either a loudness button or a sub is a must. What happens now when you crank the volume? Is the bass overpowering? I hope this doesn't come as over critical.

I'd question how the system was put together. Why SCM7s when low level listening is important? I don't know the conversations with you and the dealer but from the outside it seems bizarre. And the advice clearly doesn't match your expectations (low level listening) or needs (no sub).

This is what I describing when I was giving my opinions on atc. At low volumes they’re not the fullest and take a bit of poke to get that woofer moving to create that fullness. You’re right adding a subwoofer is like adding a loudness switch in this case.

He’s had great service but that answer isn’t spending money on another box.

 

[Oxfordian]

I hope no money changed hands yet. I'd question whether the system is right for you. You didn't want the sub in the first place. You didn't like that you had to crank the volume to get a good balance so the solution is to make you buy more gear?

You effectively getting a loudness button in form of a sub because something isn't right. Difference is loudness button wouldn't be extra few hundreds pounds or more. Shouldn't the system be to your liking for you to part with cash? Can a dealer not provide more appropriate one with a speaker that will do what's required? Alternatively, if all is fine and dandy now, I understand the sub is free?

It's entirely possible that you're listening levels are so low that either a loudness button or a sub is a must. What happens now when you crank the volume? Is the bass overpowering? I hope this doesn't come as over critical.

I'd question how the system was put together. Why SCM7s when low level listening is important? I don't know the conversations with you and the dealer but from the outside it seems bizarre. And the advice clearly doesn't match your expectations (low level listening) or needs (no sub).

Thanks for the feedback, insightful and appreciated.

No money has changed hands, this is purely a home demo test, I am under no obligation to buy anything.

I prefer a reasonably low volume when listening, high volumes are great in short burst but I cannot tolerate it for lengthy periods, so most of my listening is for me at what I consider low level, certainly low compared to what my wife likes.

Using the Quad volume numbers as an example, zero through to 100, I am happy with the scale being around 40-50, depending on my mood, this is fine and works with neighbours (no banging on the wall) and the wife who prefers tv to music.

When I sat for a few hours with the volume at 75, I found my ears ringing by the end of the session, yes the 7’s sounded awesome and I was hearing everything crisply and clearly but I just couldn’t cope with the volume.

You're right I didn’t want a sub, my belief was on the basis of home cinema where IMHO all that it did was create low noise, my hifi dealer has shown me what a sub can do in a hifi set up. And I like it.

There is a very valid argument that I should be able to get everything I want for my small listening room just out of a pair of speakers, the 7’s will do this but only at a volume I find distressing and unable to live with.

I believe that the introduction of the sub has allowed me to listen with the loudness button set lower, a situation I find enjoyable. George Michael’s ‘Cowboys and Angels’ is great with a bit of volume, no overblown bass which was one of my fears.

There is a way to go before I commit, but this current set-up is very enjoyable and that is key for me. So yes my hifi dealer will be getting some questions about speakers, wouldn’t a bigger box do the same job as a small box plus sub, what about floorstanding speakers, too big for a small room, and anything else that comes to mind between now and next week.

But at the moment I am enjoying using their kit to listen to some excellent tunes, and very pleasurable it is too.

 

[AJM1981]

Room treatment particularly absorption is very cheap to make yourself. The most expensive element is in fact a good acoustically neutral fabric. Where it can get a little expensive difficult to DIY is diffusion and should you want to make tuned traps.

I would if I could. Unfortunately my wife would nog be a real fan of those adjustments.

I'm glad to hear you've considered this and added an element but foam on general doesn't do anything for bass and isn't very effective in midrange either. It can however dampen high frequencies which could be idea if incorrectly placed.

Not for a sub indeed, just a little aid to the standmounts. Minor possibilities.

Control of reverberation is about making it even across frequency spectrum. Overdamping in particular frequency range should be avoided.

True, I would probably measure things through and be guided by reference if I would have to do it accurately. Maybe for a future man cave, but I guess a living room is about enough for me.

There's many different ways of doing it. It will all depend on the setup. Very easy to do in many active pro setups with sub acting as a crossover. Easy to DIY also using for instance Minidsp. Also generally easy if you're using a home cinema amp/receiver. However for traditional hifi it's usually very difficult and often impossible.

If you heard your sub in mids then either the crossover is too high and/or sub is set way too high. Which goes back to my earlier point properly designing a system that will work well with a sub is difficult, both gear and room dependent.

I started with my current setup of everything functioning well and in balance with my more modern HK receiver and sub outputs. Then I was like 'let's try the old Denon amp' to see how it will go with the old way of connecting a sub with speaker cable (and a loudness button) .

To get the difference
"Modern amp" + tulip cable + modern sub" = sub works full frequency spectrum semi independent from the amp and 90% of the controls work (just not a specific volume button that works when connecting speaker cable but there is another volume button dedicated to the tulip input) , cutting off at a frequency is easy.

Old school amp +speaker cable + modern amp = frequency range of the sub seems capped by what the amp is limited to. 10% of the controls is working (only the volume mentioned above). This was the only situation in which the "bleeding" was impossible to counter as all aides were now disabled. So I went back to my HK. And dropped the idea about maybe having a vintage amp some day.

It is a bit similar to disabling all the modern aides of a hyper modern tesla to emulate an old T-Ford experience when using an old amp.

I bet there were external aides to old amps and sub systems to kind of get what a modern experience gives but it must have been a tinkering hell.

(also the loudness button didnt do well to the sound of my Wharfedale evo's)

 

[Oxfordian]

This is what I describing when I was giving my opinions on atc. At low volumes they’re not the fullest and take a bit of poke to get that woofer moving to create that fullness. You’re right adding a subwoofer is like adding a loudness switch in this case.

He’s had great service but that answer isn’t spending money on another box.

The answer is getting to a point where I like the sound a lot, sufficiently so to part with my money and enjoy the music long term. I am very open to suggestions on what to get but I want to hear kit in my home first, not every dealer is willing to do that at the moment which makes alternative auditions difficult if the dealer isn’t willing to loan the kit.

 

[Oxfordian]

I would if I could. Unfortunately my wife would nog be a real fan of those adjustments.



Not for a sub indeed, just a little aid to the standmounts. Minor possibilities.



True, I would probably measure things through and be guided by reference if I would have to do it accurately. Maybe for a future man cave, but I guess a living room is about enough for me.



I started with my current setup of everything functioning well and in balance with my more modern HK receiver and sub outputs. Then I was like 'let's try the old Denon amp' to see how it will go with the old way of connecting a sub with speaker cable (and a loudness button) .

To get the difference
"Modern amp" + tulip cable + modern sub" = sub works full frequency spectrum semi independent from the amp and 90% of the controls work (just not a specific volume button that works when connecting speaker cable but there is another volume button dedicated to the tulip input) , cutting off at a frequency is easy.

Old school amp +speaker cable + modern amp = frequency range seems limited by what the amp is limited to. 10% of the controls is working (only the volume mentioned above).w

It is a bit like disabling all the modern aides of a hyper modern tesla to emulate an old T-Ford experience when using an old amp.

I bet there were external aides to old amps and sub systems to kind of get what a modern experience gives but it must have been a tinkering hell.

(also the loudness button didnt do well to the sound of my Wharfedale evo's.)

What’s a ‘tulip cable’?

 

[AJM1981]

What’s a ‘tulip cable’?

 

[Deleted member 116933]

The answer is getting to a point where I like the sound a lot, sufficiently so to part with my money and enjoy the music long term. I am very open to suggestions on what to get but I want to hear kit in my home first, not every dealer is willing to do that at the moment which makes alternative auditions difficult if the dealer isn’t willing to loan the kit.

Don’t get me wrong if you like the sound you like the sound. But the speakers by themselves should be giving you the “feels” without a subwoofer. The subwoofer should be augmenting the sound, not adding something that isn’t there for you.
In your situation you seem to have found a good dealer ask them to give you another option.

Fuller options for low volumes I’d hunt down options from BW revel klipsch to name a few.

But that’s completely up to you. If you have found a sound that suits you that’s great but you shouldn’t have to spend more to make them something there not on there own IMO

 

[nopiano]

That looks like two phono plugs! Is there meant to be cable and another plug or socket?

 

[AJM1981]

That looks like two phono plugs! Is there meant to be cable and another plug or socket?

Standard RCA. The ones used for aux, cd, tape input etc.

 

[Oxfordian]

Sorry for being stupid but this looks like a normal interconnect, why does it get called ‘tulip’?

And how does it work on a Subwoofer?

 

[Oxfordian]

Don’t get me wrong if you like the sound you like the sound. But the speakers by themselves should be giving you the “feels” without a subwoofer. The subwoofer should be augmenting the sound, not adding something that isn’t there for you.
In your situation you seem to have found a good dealer ask them to give you another option.

Fuller options for low volumes I’d hunt down options from BW revel klipsch to name a few.

But that’s completely up to you. If you have found a sound that suits you that’s great but you shouldn’t have to spend more to make them something there not on there own IMO

You’re right I should be able to just have a pair of speakers doing the work and that has to be the next question to the dealer.

The 7’s are a small box, so maybe there are better small box speakers, maybe a larger box will work negating the use of a sub but I am limited by what the dealer stocks.

Other local dealers are not so keen to loan stock out, happy for me to buy and allow a return but only if unused - what’s the point of that? With COVID still around a shop demo is difficult also not representative of my room, so not that helpful.

I have options to explore which I will do, buying new kit is expensive so a considered decision has to be made, the current set up has set a benchmark so now I look to see if I can improve on it.

 

[insider9]

@Oxfordian I appreciate you're doing it the right way. Home demos are a must. Have you considered a little bit of fun buying used gear? You could get a great system for fraction of the price however it could take you a good few times to get it right. Buy cheap and sell at little loss if at all. You would learn a ton though and by the end you could still sell on all your used bits and have much more understanding of what you like.