"This speaker doesn't need a subwoofer". And why it does.

[Oxfordian]

@Oxfordian I appreciate you're doing it the right way. Home demos are a must. Have you considered a little bit of fun buying used gear? You could get a great system for fraction of the price however it could take you a good few times to get it right. Buy cheap and sell at little loss if at all. You would learn a ton though and by the end you could still sell on all your used bits and have much more understanding of what you like.

Not tried buying hifi used, tried photography gear and got badly burnt so not an area I would willing go to again.

 

[insider9]

Not tried buying hifi used, tried photography gear and got badly burnt so not an area I would willing go to again.

Fair enough. It comes at some risk but nowhere near as much as cameras and lenses. Particularly as many enthusiasts will allow a demo before collection. eBay also has been good with returns if things go wrong but I believe the rules are changing so not sure where this leaves us. Not to mention you could meet lots of interesting people.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

You’re right I should be able to just have a pair of speakers doing the work and that has to be the next question to the dealer.

The 7’s are a small box, so maybe there are better small box speakers, maybe a larger box will work negating the use of a sub but I am limited by what the dealer stocks.

Other local dealers are not so keen to loan stock out, happy for me to buy and allow a return but only if unused - what’s the point of that? With COVID still around a shop demo is difficult also not representative of my room, so not that helpful.

I have options to explore which I will do, buying new kit is expensive so a considered decision has to be made, the current set up has set a benchmark so now I look to see if I can improve on it.

Size in general in my experience doesn’t have to much to do with it in the average size room. And some times less is more as I found out with revel and pmc. With the latter having far more poke in my room to the point it wasn’t even funny.

I have no sub (though I’m not overly concerned with bass) and I’m sitting here with the volume barely off the 6oclock mark. And it fills the room with sound and you can clearly hear everything , I’m getting a 60db rating at this volume , pics attached . If I turn the volume of this sugden up to 8oclock I’m well over a 100db at 3 meters away with these klipsch heresys 3. The sugden only has 23watts on tap. I’d only need the sub to achieve bass that the speakers don’t give. Not because its to quite to get the speakers working.

As I think I’ve said to you before, efficient speakers are king. It actually gets to point at night where I actually struggle to turn it down enough


You’re doing it the right way don’t make there lives easy lol. I at one stage must of had15k of speaker lined up in the hall while I was trying things out on home demo. My dealer is Scotland I live in Suffolk. If they want your custom they’ll work round you.

 

[AJM1981]

Sorry for being stupid but this looks like a normal interconnect, why does it get called ‘tulip’?

And how does it work on a Subwoofer?

In The Netherlands we call it a tulip connector due to its shape. Googling I could see they are also labeled like that internationally. Though certain countries may use different labels. It is the most common connector, usually they come in red and white as the r in red stands for right stereo channel. Fits into almost every TV and audio equipment.

 

[Al ears]

In The Netherlands we call it a tulip connector due to its shape. Googling I could see they are also labeled like that internationally. Though certain countries may use different labels. It is the most common connector, usually they come in red and white as the r in red stands for right stereo channel. Fits into almost every TV and audio equipment.

In most parts it's a phono cable....

 

[AJM1981]

In most parts it's a phono cable....

let me copy that from now on.

Guess we have something with tulips here.

 

[TrevC]

Try a BK sub with this. Antimode. It will equalise your sub to your room. No need for bass traps or other clutter. You will need a sub out, pre-out or a speaker level attenuator to connect it. If you have a standmount you need a sub.

 

[andybebbs]

I appreciate the post it is an interesting and somewhat controversial subject for purists. Here's a few things to consider. And please don't take it as me trying to put you off.

From room acoustics perspective treating reverberation in bass frequencies is difficult and requires big bass traps (ideally tuned traps). Adding a sub in an untreated room with uncontrolled reverberation is asking for trouble and could potentially kill what's good in a system. Most are not prepared to even use broadband absorption to deal with first reflections which is much smaller than bass traps.

My deadest room reverberation was controlled extremely well down to 120Hz below that it would go up few fold. However bass definition was great. But the room was heavily treated.

I've seen measurements of rooms that have reverberation in bass that is around and above 1 second. Won't name names. In other words this means each note rings for an extra second before it decays. I'm not talking about sub bass. Just bass around 150Hz. Adding sub bass energy would only make things worse, not better. And kill any definition.

Focusing on frequency range is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. The fact you can doesn't mean you should. It is matter of the environment and not needs or wants.

But let's assume you go ahead and do it. In most cases the subwoofer will be placed in the wrong spot. Where speaker placement is important, sub placement in relation to listeners and speakers is even more important. Potential issues other than the sub being too loud are issues with definition and timing.

Finally to properly integrate and have the most benefit from a sub it's best to high pass your main systems. This is to free up your main speakers from low bass duties so they can reproduce midrange better and not to cause phases issues potentially fighting and often smearing bass. This can be difficult and sometimes impossible.

When done right it can be transformational for a system, however most aren't willing to do it properly (placement, room treatment, measured calibration, high passing main speakers).

My post isn't trying to put anyone off using a sub, but it's to warn of difficulties. We already have many who are not willing to do basics with main speaker placement even though they spent good amount of money and wondering why their systems don't sound as good as they should. The last thing we need is people messing up their systems with poorly integrated subs.

Also worth adding. If you're source is vinyl you're unlikely to ever need a sub. If you're source is digital don't fret, even though some instruments are capable of playing notes lower than 40Hz not many ever do. And when they do your room will likely be a limitation to enjoy it. Not putting a downer, mine is.

why would a vinyl player not require a sub? just curious as i don`t know the answer.

 

[insider9]

why would a vinyl player not require a sub? just curious as i don`t know the answer.

Because of limitations of a medium. Records are very restricted in these terms. It's not that you can't have 20Hz sub on vinyl. I believe technically you can go down to 7 Hz. But then a 12" LP you won't fit the usual 22 minutes per side it will be far less as in order to reproduce bass this low the grooves will have to be deeper and as such wider. Not only that but you will run into trouble depending on where bass heavy tracks are as you come towards the center.

 

[TrevC]

I find a sub does make a big difference on vinyl, especially on organ music or Genesis bass pedals! :O)

 

[AJM1981]

Because of limitations of a medium. Records are very restricted in these terms. It's not that you can't have 20Hz sub on vinyl. I believe technically you can go down to 7 Hz. But then a 12" LP you won't fit the usual 22 minutes per side it will be far less as in order to reproduce bass this low the grooves will have to be deeper and as such wider. Not only that but you will run into trouble depending on where bass heavy tracks are as you come towards the center.

Apart from Cinema and making people uncomfortable there is practically no use for inaudible 7hz infrasound. One would also need a rotary sub. Which has a propellor and are not ideal at home with kids and pets.

But given Vinyl, for not that extreme tracks like Robert Glasper and Erykah Badu's Afro Blue should be about the kind of song that a sub is welcome as there is a whole supporting layer in the depths. A record player would probably be able to do it but have a hard time here.

 

[Oxfordian]

Apart from Cinema and making people uncomfortable there is practically no use for inaudible 7hz infrasound. One would also need a rotary sub. Which has a propellor and are not ideal at home with kids and pets.

But given Vinyl, for tracks like Robert Glasper and Erykah Badu's Afro Blue should be about the kind of song that a sub is welcome as there is a whole supporting layer in the depths. A record player would probably able to do it but have a hard time here.

The REL that I have on loan seems happy to chip in irrespective of whether I am playing CD’s, LP’s or via Bluetooth, it’s never obtrusive, occasionally a very slight tremble of the floor, but only if a really heavy bass centred track is being played.

 

[insider9]

Apart from Cinema and making people uncomfortable there is practically no use for inaudible 7hz infrasound. One would also need a rotary sub. Which has a propellor and are not ideal at home with kids and pets.

But given Vinyl, for not that extreme tracks like Robert Glasper and Erykah Badu's Afro Blue should be about the kind of song that a sub is welcome as there is a whole supporting layer in the depths. A record player would probably be able to do it but have a hard time here.

Sure thing about 7Hz, was only mentioning what's possible using vinyl.

In regards to many older recordings it was part of mastering to wipe bottom end so your sub won't do anything. Robert Glasper doesn't use any instruments that go below 40Hz on his recording as far as I remember so a decent floorstander should suffice.

I do agree on a benefit of a sub that doesn't really get a mention (which is weird). Sub provides you additional volume pot which means you can unbalance the sound still being able to hear bass when listening quieter. Not quite hifi but it does the job.

Not sure why this is not talked about but in order to hear bass we need volume. You're not supposed to have a big bass listening quietly.

 

[TrevC]

[

Sure thing about 7Hz, was only mentioning what's possible using vinyl.

In regards to many older recordings it was part of mastering to wipe bottom end so your sub won't do anything. Robert Glasper doesn't use any instruments that go below 40Hz on his recording as far as I remember so a decent floorstander should suffice.

I do agree on a benefit of a sub that doesn't really get a mention (which is weird). Sub provides you additional volume pot which means you can unbalance the sound still being able to hear bass when listening quieter. Not quite hifi but it does the job.

Not sure why this is not talked about but in order to hear bass we need volume. You're not supposed to have a big bass listening quietly.

7Hz will be lost in the rumble filter most of the time anyway.

 

[andybebbs]

well i find my sub works great with my vinyl i do hear and like the difference.

 

[Oxfordian]

The REL that I have on loan seems happy to chip in irrespective of whether I am playing CD’s, LP’s or via Bluetooth, it’s never obtrusive, occasionally a very slight tremble of the floor, but only if a really heavy bass centred track is being played.

The REL is packed away and heading back to the dealers, nothing wrong with it but the latest set-up negates using one which is fine.

I am definitely a fan of sub woofers in hifi having tried one, if I go ahead with the current system I have on demo then I may add a sub at a later date but for now the amp and speaker combination is working very nicely indeed.

 

[HifiEnthusiast]

If I might chip in, just added an SVS PB-1000 pro to a pair of B&W CM10s and it really makes a difference, even at low volumes. The CM10s are hooked to a MA352 so they have all the juice they want and still, adding the sub was worth it.

The good thing about that sub is the possibility to seal the ports (more hifi) and connect it using high level line (hooked to the speaker outputs) like REL recommends (caution: for non-balanced amps only). And the bluetooth software is just fantastic. Setting up a sub crossover has never been so easy!

For those still relucant to adding a sub, I’ve set the low-pass filter at 37hz (-24db slope), which is deemed a fairly decent bass extension that you usually only get from mid to large floorstanding speakers, and the improvement to scale and impact was very noticeable! You make your own conclusion for bookshelfs.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Sealing ports seems a bad idea if you've chosen wisely in the first place...

 

[HifiEnthusiast]

Sealing ports seems a bad idea if you've chosen wisely in the first place...

Why?

The pb-1000 pro has 2 tuning modes, ported and sealed. In sealed, what you lose in bass extension and level, you gain in speed and accuracy. So better for music, no? Why didn’t I go then for the SB-1000 pro, the sealed version? Well, now I can open the ports and change the tuning mode for home theater use if I want.

 

[gasolin]

No subwoofer please, i want it to sound good and loud enough. down to 50-60hz +/- 3 db is okay for me

 

[HifiEnthusiast]

No subwoofer please, i want it to sound good and loud enough. down to 50-60hz +/- 3 db is okay for me

The best hifi system is the one you enjoy If it's no sub for you, then so be it!

 

[gasolin]

I think it's much easier to integrate the bass to a room, lets say you have active speaker compared to passive and and subwoofer, many don't even have proper highpass filter for the fronts so they don't play deeper than 60-80hz

Even if you have a surround reciever thats is good in stereo, it might not be easy to integrate the bass if you have a mic and the amp can adjust many things aut

 

[Tinman1952]

You’re right I should be able to just have a pair of speakers doing the work and that has to be the next question to the dealer.

The 7’s are a small box, so maybe there are better small box speakers, maybe a larger box will work negating the use of a sub but I am limited by what the dealer stocks.

Other local dealers are not so keen to loan stock out, happy for me to buy and allow a return but only if unused - what’s the point of that? With COVID still around a shop demo is difficult also not representative of my room, so not that helpful.

I have options to explore which I will do, buying new kit is expensive so a considered decision has to be made, the current set up has set a benchmark so now I look to see if I can improve on it.

Just wanted to add that in my opinion adding a sub ( or two) is NOT like a loudness button because you are adding low frequencies that your speakers are not capable of! It adds an extra octave at the bottom of music and that is why you enjoy it more. Also at low levels ALL equipment needs a lift in the bass because of our hearing…

 

[Oxfordian]

Just wanted to add that in my opinion adding a sub ( or two) is NOT like a loudness button because you are adding low frequencies that your speakers are not capable of! It adds an extra octave at the bottom of music and that is why you enjoy it more. Also at low levels ALL equipment needs a lift in the bass because of our hearing…

Last week I met briefly with the REL team who were doing demo’s at my dealers store, a very expensive speaker set-up was demo’d with and without a sub, and then a pair of subs, the difference was very noticeable.

I have to say I am a convert and will add one (or two) to my system in due course.

 

[Al ears]

Since I now own a true 2.1 amplifier it is my intention to obtain one small subwoofer soonest.