Cables will make a difference

[andyjm]

This is interesting for more than the obvous reason.

Some additional context here and here

You cannot imagine that anything this candid appearing on a Roksan/Naim/Arcam facebook page anytime soon, let alone the really big boys.

Hmmn.

Only watched the first one. He may have been dumbing it down for his audience, but his description of the impact of jitter is completely incorrect. It is not the amplitude of the samples that is in error, it is their positioning in time that causes the problem. The ring buffer / reclock solution to input jitter is widely used, I don't know why he regards that as being a unique solution. Compensating for cable effects by a loading network on the S/PDIF coax input is transmission line theory 1.01, and has been a technique used since the telephone was invented.

One point he didn't cover was if the ring buffer / reclock jitter solution worked as advertised, why is he bothering about cleaning up the S/PDIF clock with his fancy loading network.

A better description than usual, but I would still only give it a B+.

 

[SteveR750]

Which is interesting Andy, as the usual response sonically is A++

I haven't heard them yet, but next week will be comparing one of their amps to the ATC 150 integrated, which I think sounds fantastic.

 

[Vladimir]

Why not be straightforward and just say we use an industry standard re-timing anti-jitter circuit, and our gear is focused on luxury build for audiophiles with nice cases and functionality.

Stop selling me a 1$ AJCs, that exists for 30 years, as a novelty exotica FFS. Talk about the pretty box.

[ranting at the Hegel guy, not you Steve]

 

[astracouple]

Wrong

 

[TrevC]

what i dont understand is if cables dosent make a diffrence why is it i cant see people's signature speaker cable' bell wire',why on one hand some people post cables dont make a diffrence tell us not to buy hifi bling cos its a waste of money but then told tobuy a thick cable with thicker strands from maplin or b@q surely if its all in are heads, bell wire is all we will need surely as dose the same job as the thicker cable.

bombs away .

david

Bell wire isn't suitable because it has too high resistance. It's important that speaker wire is low resistance because of the low impedances involved. Your audio signal will be dissipated as heat in the wire otherwise.

 

[andyjm]

what i dont understand is if cables dosent make a diffrence why is it i cant see people's signature speaker cable' bell wire',why on one hand some people post cables dont make a diffrence tell us not to buy hifi bling cos its a waste of money but then told tobuy a thick cable with thicker strands from maplin or b@q surely if its all in are heads, bell wire is all we will need surely as dose the same job as the thicker cable.

bombs away .

david

David,

I think if you read the thread carefully, no one is saying cables don't make a difference - of course they do.

What is being said is that one perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable will sound exactly the same as any other perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable.

 

[andyjm]

Which is interesting Andy, as the usual response sonically is A++

I haven't heard them yet, but next week will be comparing one of their amps to the ATC 150 integrated, which I think sounds fantastic.

They may well make great sounding gear, but Anders doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to jitter, and their 'unique' approach is used by many other manufacturers.

Lets agree to give them the benefit of the doubt and say Anders is in the marketing department.

 

[antskip]

[/quote] What is being said is that one perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable will sound exactly the same as any other perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable.[/quote]

if you can't notice the difference, you can't notice the difference.

 

[andyjm]

What is being said is that one perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable will sound exactly the same as any other perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable.[/quote]

if you can't notice the difference, you can't notice the difference.

[/quote]

I often hear differences - that on closer investigation are due to a bias of some form on my part.

You?

 

[davedotco]

What is being said is that one perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable will sound exactly the same as any other perfectly good, adequately thick, properly specified cable.

if you can't notice the difference, you can't notice the difference.

[/quote]

I often hear differences - that on closer investigation are due to a bias of some form on my part.

You?

[/quote]

This is the single biggest miss-understanding by cable 'advocates'.

They actually think that cable 'sceptics' dont hear a difference......*ROFL*

Hearing the difference is the easy part, the difficult bit is working out what is actually causing the difference that we do hear.

 

[antskip]

[/quote] This is the single biggest miss-understanding by cable 'advocates'. They actually think that cable 'sceptics' dont hear a difference......*ROFL* [/quote]

If they hear a difference, they hear a difference.

 

[TrevC]

It isn't possible for a mains lead to influence sound quality.

How many different mains leads have you tried?

Loads, on all sorts of appliances. :O) Every time I plug something in.

 

[pauln]

This is the single biggest miss-understanding by cable 'advocates'. They actually think that cable 'sceptics' dont hear a difference......*ROFL* [/quote]

If they hear a difference, they hear a difference.

[/quote]

How can you know if you are hearing a difference or perceiving a difference? What you think you 'hear' is a result of your brain processing multiple sensory inputs.

 

[davedotco]

This is the single biggest miss-understanding by cable 'advocates'. They actually think that cable 'sceptics' dont hear a difference......*ROFL*

If they hear a difference, they hear a difference.

[/quote]

How can you know if you are hearing a difference or perceiving a difference? What you think you 'hear' is a result of your brain processing multiple sensory inputs.

[/quote]

Shhhhushhhhh. You can't say things like that, you must "Trust your ears".

Oh, wait a minute...............*ROFL*

 

[SteveR750]

This is the single biggest miss-understanding by cable 'advocates'. They actually think that cable 'sceptics' dont hear a difference......*ROFL* [/quote]

If they hear a difference, they hear a difference.

[/quote]

There are probably two types of cable sceptics - those that are absolutely sure they cannot ergo there is no difference, and the other group that might possibly hear a tiny difference, but that could just be my mind playing tricks difference. They might accept that there is a scientifically measurable difference too, but frankly the utterly ridiculous p*** taking prices make it a totally pointless option.

 

[steve_1979]

What amazes on here is that the 'non-believers' feel the need to hammer out their opinions again, again and ... yaeeee ... again

The same thing can be said for both sides.

But yes I do agree it is silly. I'm not even sure why I still read these threads?

 

[Waxy]

As they all read the same. No need for testing. *dash1*

 

[Vladimir]

There are probably two types of cable sceptics - those that are absolutely sure they cannot ergo there is no difference, and the other group that might possibly hear a tiny difference, but that could just be my mind playing tricks difference. They might accept that there is a scientifically measurable difference too, but frankly the utterly ridiculous p*** taking prices make it a totally pointless option.

The second option is sufficient for the cable cottage industry to thrive. Maybe is good enough for snake oil to sell.

Selling an 'audio cable' or 'audio capacitor' are all taking a p*** at any price. Low resistance cable and low ESR capacitors are preferable for any application in electronics.

 

[Vladimir]

 

[fr0g]

What amazes on here is that the 'non-believers' feel the need to hammer out their opinions again, again and ... yaeeee ... again

The same thing can be said for both sides.

But yes I do agree it is silly. I'm not even sure why I still read these threads?

Nope. I disagree. Yes, for the people who have seen it time and time again, these threads are annoying possibly and boring possibly.

But there are new people coming into it all the time.

And speaking personally, I like to make sure that whenever a cable recommendation is made, that they be aware that there is scientific evidence against most of the claims that the cable makers make.

It "is" possible that 2 slightly different cables will have an effect on the sound of a system, but those differences are so minute that they can't be picked out in any blind testing (unless someone has a link to share). All the blind tests on cables that I have seen have produced non-conclusive results.

Once you get a well made, low resistance copper stranded cable, that is it. There is NEVER any need to swap it. Not unless you happen to like the colour of the sleeve or like to show off your Hi-fi bling to your mates (assuming you have any)

And yes, I can and do hear differences. Just not when I don't know which is which...That's how the brain works...You can "see" a difference, the brain assumes there is, when in reality, the only change is perception.

All a huge con.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Oh,.... @ Reijer....respect.

But be aware regardless of your results and efforts it will not change the opinions of some.

But yeah, I tip my hat to you Sir, for trying.

Now wouldn't it be interesting if the skeptics made such an effort!

Its so easy to type 'wrong' 'meaningless' etc.

 

[andyjm]

Oh,.... @ Reijer....respect.

But be aware regardless of your results and efforts it will not change the opinions of some.

But yeah, I tip my hat to you Sir, for trying.

Now wouldn't it be interesting if the skeptics made such an effort!

Its so easy to type 'wrong' 'meaningless' etc.

The sceptics have made the effort and run the tests already, thats why they are sceptical.

I and other 'sceptics' have linked to multiple studies, tests and analysis that have shown that two similar cables will sound the same when tests are performed in a way to remove suggestion bias.

What about a link to a study that shows the opposite?

 

[Laurens_B]

Oh,.... @ Reijer....respect.

But be aware regardless of your results and efforts it will not change the opinions of some.

But yeah, I tip my hat to you Sir, for trying.

Now wouldn't it be interesting if the skeptics made such an effort!

Its so easy to type 'wrong' 'meaningless' etc.

Yes props to Reijer for doing this. However, I think no one of us skeptics will claim that the differences between analog audio cables are unmeasurable, in fact they are easily measured. The claim is that the differences are so tiny that they are not audible. Closing your curtains (if you have them) will have a far greater impact on in-room response than different speaker cables.

What we all have done, is a blind test with speaker cables, and we found the differences disappeared between cables. Now wouldn't it be interesting if the believers would make this effort, and report their results. Yes, it is not easy to set-up and takes some time, but worth it!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Er..... Don't think that's true Andy, few on here would actually do a or should I say attempt to do a 'proper scientifical' test to prove anything.

I confess I would not. Just grabbing links off the internet does not count

Someone linked to a Hegal video - an amp maker trying to achieve 'total transparency' I think, apparently - the guy in the video actual mentioned cables in relation to this goal, it made me chuckle.

Oh,.... @ Reijer....respect.

But be aware regardless of your results and efforts it will not change the opinions of some.

But yeah, I tip my hat to you Sir, for trying.

Now wouldn't it be interesting if the skeptics made such an effort!

Its so easy to type 'wrong' 'meaningless' etc.

The sceptics have made the effort and run the tests already, thats why they are sceptical.

I and other 'sceptics' have linked to multiple studies, tests and analysis that have shown that two similar cables will sound the same when tests are performed in a way to remove suggestion bias.

What about a link to a study that shows the opposite?

?

 

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Thing is Laurens_B that's what this is all about, those small seemingly insignificant differences.

One cable allows ambiance around a singers voice another does not, one rolls off the lowest bass notes the other does not - really small differences that make all the difference to ones listening pleasure.

No one is suggesting a cable will make a guitar sound like a banjo or anything like that.

Just the nuances that put the hifi into...er...hifi.

And everyone as done the simple tests, that's one of my party games.

Oh,.... @ Reijer....respect.

But be aware regardless of your results and efforts it will not change the opinions of some.

But yeah, I tip my hat to you Sir, for trying.

Now wouldn't it be interesting if the skeptics made such an effort!

Its so easy to type 'wrong' 'meaningless' etc.

Yes props to Reijer for doing this. However, I think no one of us skeptics will claim that the differences between analog audio cables are unmeasurable, in fact they are easily measured. The claim is that the differences are so tiny that they are not audible. Closing your curtains (if you have them) will have a far greater impact on in-room response than different speaker cables.?

What we all have done, is a blind test with speaker cables, and we found the differences disappeared between cables. Now wouldn't it be interesting if the believers would make this effort, and report their results. Yes, it is not easy to set-up and takes some time, but worth it!