Cables will make a difference

[TrevC]

That the uneveness in a speaker freq reponse is the cause for a house sound.

Surely the house sound is a direct result of the componets used inside a product and simialrities in design

A manufacturer uses preferred type of board, capacitor resisitor, solder, wire etc in their products + the design resulting in whats called the "house sound"

To have a house sound the flatness of the frequency response woul have to be compromised.

 

[hifikrazy]

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue77/skoff.htm

 

[TrevC]

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue77/skoff.htm

Interesting, but any old bit of copper wire used as an interconnect at line level will transmit 100% of the signal because it's an entirely non-critical application. That makes them all essentially perfect. You could try a VDH carbon interconnect which has significant resistance and think it sounds better, but that would be less than perfect.

It's faulty thinking that settles nothing.

 

[Reijer]

Found a decibelmeter at school which has also an USB-out, so I think I can use it for spectrum analyze.

Now considering to solder some spades to my speakercables and use shrinkwrapit. Is it wise? Or use bare wire?

 

[Vladimir]

I vote soldered spades. If not soldered then I prefer bare wire.

Clean with isopropyl alcohol after soldering. Touching with hands leaves skin grease which makes metals oxidize.

 

[drummerman]

Aren't v.d. Hul cables the best? I think almost every cacle of them is very good. From cheap (The Name) to their pricey interconnects. And the D102 is a cracker.

Some of them use carbon conductors which make them both expensive and resistive, not to mantion less durable. They might sound different as a result, but the same type of difference could be achieved by a 10p resistor.

... which incidentally is what Tellurium use in some of their interconnects.

 

[drummerman]

... which incidentally is what Tellurium use in some of their interconnects.

Why?

No idea. To sound different?

 

[Vladimir]

... which incidentally is what Tellurium use in some of their interconnects.

Why? *scratch_one-s_head*

 

[Vladimir]

Maybe to attenuate very high gain sensitive amps (150mV for example). You effectively get the impression of warmer and calmer sound.

 

[Matt77]

hi there over the years ive had differant cables and IMO they dont make things better. they just add things to the music. put in simple terms a piano should sound like a piano and a guitar is a guitar etc . Waste of money. I use state of the art 500ofc now .i think its all you need just enjoy the music without all the fuss its all in the mind lol . just my opinion each to there own though

 

[Gazzip]

hi there over the years ive had differant cables and IMO they dont make things better. they just add things to the music. put in simple terms a piano should sound like a piano and a guitar is a guitar etc . Waste of money. I use state of the art 500ofc now .i think its all you need just enjoy the music without all the fuss its all in the mind lol . just my opinion each to there own though

They do not "add" anything. They may take things away but they cannot "add".

 

[SteveR750]

That's pretty much true for every single component. None can add anything, just distort the original. The issue is what is your preferred flavour of distortion.

 

[Gazzip]

That's pretty much true for every single component. None can add anything, just distort the original. The issue is what is your preferred flavour of distortion.

No it isn't? Electronics can certainly add things to a signal. Cables cannot.

 

[JoelSim]

That's pretty much true for every single component. None can add anything, just distort the original. The issue is what is your preferred flavour of distortion.

Agree.

 

[SteveR750]

That's pretty much true for every single component. None can add anything, just distort the original. The issue is what is your preferred flavour of distortion.

No it isn't? Electronics can certainly add things to a signal. Cables cannot.

No, they can only change from the original. That is not adding, it's detracting. If you change it, and you like it that's your preference.

 

[Gazzip]

That's pretty much true for every single component. None can add anything, just distort the original. The issue is what is your preferred flavour of distortion.

No it isn't? Electronics can certainly add things to a signal. Cables cannot.

No, they can only change from the original. That is not adding, it's detracting. If you change it, and you like it that's your preference.

Sorry, crossed wires if you will pardon the pun. I agree that a signal cannot be "enhanced" by either but electronics can "add" things to a signal (house sound, wahwah, reverb, equalisation etc. etc.) whereas a cable cannot "add" anything. It can only distort/degrade the signal.

 

[Covenanter]

Absolutely everything that gets between the signal source and your ears degrades the signal in some way. So the guitarist plucks a string and from then on it's all down-hill! What you want from hifi is something that minimises the degradation.

Chris

 

[SteveR750]

Absolutely everything that gets between the signal source and your ears degrades the signal in some way. So the guitarist plucks a string and from then on it's all down-hill! What you want from hifi is something that minimises the degradation.

Chris

And that's the £££ question, do we? It's the generally accepted holy grail of manufacturers and consumers (though who is the tail in this relationship is not always clear), but is it really so important? Why not accept that flavouring your music is in fact desirable, after all it's all about entertainment, and why should truth be the pinnacle of entertainment? I posted a link from an interview with a mixing engineer, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole truth quest (it's on ATC's facebook page feed if you're interested, I think it was a cnet article with Andy(?) Laird; but I could be off with the name....

 

[Vladimir]

And that's the £££ question, do we?

We do, if we want High Fidelity. Now your question may be reformated as "Do we want high fidelity?"

 

[AEJim]

This is never going to be a clear debate, ever.

Technically (speaker) cables are all equal presuming that the shielding is ok and thickness is adequate for the given length to ensure speaker resistance is greater than that of the cable under normal operating conditions. A couple of mm thick being fine for most domestic applications. Interconnects and mains leads have even less effect due to their usual lengths and the nature of their operation. An audio signal is still just electricity at the end of the day and all of the scientific rules applicable to electricity are just as relevant to audio. A speaker has many, many feet of "normal" cabling inside the cabinet and in particular the drive unit coils - all part of the same signal path.

But...

There's the placebo effect, many people hear differences where there technically shouldn't be any, based on many factors - visual, perceived quality etc. Even skeptical people can often hear these differences despite "knowing better". The fact is that the placebo effect is a real effect though - if you think you hear a difference you DO hear a difference. Psychoacoustics dictate that the brain plays a large part in sound perception, not just the mechanics of the ear. Those people that think they are hearing a difference and prefer one technically similar item to another are right, it's what they really are hearing, it's their perception and it can't be argued. This effect is far stronger with audio perception than visual perception.

Science is right, the methodology is all tried and tested, all Hi-Fi works under the basic rules of physics, there's no magic - but science also accepts that the placebo effect is real, therefore those that argue that cables can't really make a difference are, in most circumstances completely right - but so are those that say they can hear a difference in cables despite the "facts". There will never be a definitive solution to this debate due to those factors.

 

[cheeseboy]

Science is right, the methodology is all tried and tested, all Hi-Fi works under the basic rules of physics, there's no magic - but science also accepts that the placebo effect is real, therefore those that argue that cables can't really make a difference are, in most circumstances completely right - but so are those that say they can hear a difference in cables despite the "facts". There will never be a definitive solution to this debate due to those factors.

I don't necessarily think there needs to be a definitive solution. I know speaking for myself only, I just get bemused when people claim they hear a difference but it couldn't possibly be a placebo/expectation bias/suggestive bias or anything like that, as if they are suddenly immune because it's hifi. I don't think that even the most staunch cable skeptic would debate if people *are* hearing differences, it's more the *why* imho, and then there's the irony/hypocrisy that a lot of (for want of a better term, because i hate this term) cable believers are always saying that people should open their mind... unless of course that means accepting that the differences however real to them, may just be a placebo.

There was a recent study done where they found out people could be convinced they they had comitted a crime that never happened. If that's the case, it's really not hard to see how easy it is for bling hifi peripherals to make people believe they are hearing exactly what has been suggested by their marketing department.

I for one find the placebo effect, and all other associated things fascinating.

 

[Covenanter]

Absolutely everything that gets between the signal source and your ears degrades the signal in some way. So the guitarist plucks a string and from then on it's all down-hill! What you want from hifi is something that minimises the degradation.

Chris

And that's the £££ question, do we? It's the generally accepted holy grail of manufacturers and consumers (though who is the tail in this relationship is not always clear), but is it really so important? Why not accept that flavouring your music is in fact desirable, after all it's all about entertainment, and why should truth be the pinnacle of entertainment? I posted a link from an interview with a mixing engineer, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole truth quest (it's on ATC's facebook page feed if you're interested, I think it was a cnet article with Andy(?) Laird; but I could be off with the name....

I don't mind people who want "flavouring". What I object to is people who won't accept that what they have is "flavouring". It's the old vinyl argument isn't it? We all know that vinyl equates to distortion, or "flavouring" if you prefer. But loads of people like it and good for them.

It's not what I want though. What I want when I put a CD on to play is something that is as close as I can get to what I hear in the concert hall. This is the original definition of hi-fi - high fidelity - ie. literally closeness to the original.

I suppose I'm a bit miffed that the term hi-fi has been hijacked and transformed into "sounds good". It's no big deal of course. As long as I can get what I want I am happy.

If I were buying lots of "pop" recordings now I would need some flavouring to undo the distortion built into the recordings. Luckily most classical recordings are still very good and there is a very fine back-catalogue of older recordings that will see me to my grave.

Chris

 

[Om]

Whether cables are "digital" or "analog" - all they are meant to do is to carry electrons or to be absolutely correct - transmit electrical energy when there is a difference in voltage between two ends.Nothing less. Nothing more.

Electrons do not come in different shapes or sizes. Not even in different colours. Sad, but true. So - that spray that someone paid $$$$ for to spray on the cable terminals - unfortunately that do not do much beyond possible protection against corrosion.

Cables, as long as they meet standards do the same thing. Whether one pays $5 per meter or $5000, the difference is the same as the difference in effectiveness of snake oil from Pyhtons vs that from Anacondas in curing Cancer.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I=v/r

Cables do indeed do the same thing..... composition plays it's part though.

Question is it audible.

Whether cables are "digital" or "analog" - all they are meant to do is to carry electrons or to be absolutely correct - transmit electrical energy when there is a difference in voltage between two ends.Nothing less. Nothing more.

Electrons do not come in different shapes or sizes. Not even in different colours. Sad, but true. So - that spray that someone paid $$$$ for to spray on the cable terminals - unfortunately that do not do much beyond possible protection against corrosion.

Cables, as long as they meet standards do the same thing. Whether one pays $5 per meter or $5000, the difference is the same as the difference in effectiveness of snake oil from Pyhtons vs that from Anacondas in curing Cancer.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Interesting post this - good post to end this thread on.....

This is never going to be a clear debate, ever.

Technically (speaker) cables are all equal presuming that the shielding is ok and thickness is adequate for the given length to ensure speaker resistance is greater than that of the cable under normal operating conditions. A couple of mm thick being fine for most domestic applications. Interconnects and mains leads have even less effect due to their usual lengths and the nature of their operation. An audio signal is still just electricity at the end of the day and all of the scientific rules applicable to electricity are just as relevant to audio. A speaker has many, many feet of "normal" cabling inside the cabinet and in particular the drive unit coils - all part of the same signal path.

But...

There's the placebo effect, many people hear differences where there technically shouldn't be any, based on many factors - visual, perceived quality etc. Even skeptical people can often hear these differences despite "knowing better". The fact is that the placebo effect is a real effect though - if you think you hear a difference you DO hear a difference.  Psychoacoustics dictate that the brain plays a large part in sound perception, not just the mechanics of the ear. Those people that think they are hearing a difference and prefer one technically similar item to another are right, it's what they really are hearing, it's their perception and it can't be argued. This effect is far stronger with audio perception than visual perception.

?

Science is right, the methodology is all tried and tested, all Hi-Fi works under the basic rules of physics, there's no magic - but science also accepts that the placebo effect is real, therefore those that argue that cables can't really make a difference are, in most circumstances completely right - but so are those that say they can hear a difference in cables despite the "facts". There will never be a definitive solution to this debate due to those factors.