The sad part is if you read Rule #1, you already broke it. Therefore, it should be printed in every hi-fi magazine, hi-fi showroom entrance door, every flyer and brochure. Prevention is everything.
Every young woman should have been supplied with a pamflet explaining what "let's go to my place and listen to some records" actually means. In your case cheeseboy a cattle prod might have also helped. *ROFL*
Reijer
Well-known member
Did tonight some more testing with 1kHz signal, recording it twice per cable.
Used cables: Sommer Prisma 2 * 2,5mm2 and Audioquest flx/slip 14/4
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%201%20kHz%20Sommer%20Prisma_zpsm1yy32qz-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%201%20kHz%20Audioqust_zpskmesw959-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3
Used cables: Sommer Prisma 2 * 2,5mm2 and Audioquest flx/slip 14/4
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%201%20kHz%20Sommer%20Prisma_zpsm1yy32qz-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%201%20kHz%20Audioqust_zpskmesw959-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3
Reijer
Well-known member
Also did a 20Hz - 20kHz sweep, twice per cable.
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%2020Hz%20-%2020%20kHz%20Sommer%20Prisma_zps4k95xmsh-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%2020%20Hz-%2020kHz%20Audioqust_zpszbgkjwzd-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%2020Hz%20-%2020%20kHz%20Sommer%20Prisma_zps4k95xmsh-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/ReijerW/media/Spectrum%2020%20Hz-%2020kHz%20Audioqust_zpszbgkjwzd-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
Reijer,
This is very helpful. I am afraid you are going down the same path we all have when trying to measure something, it is actually quite difficult to get decent results. Welcome to the real world.
Looking at your plots, something is seriously adrift as they are all over the place. My guess is that something is clipping in your monitoring chain or you have a signal grounding problem.
I would suggest you start from scratch.
Connect your analyser to the first step in your chain (PC soundcard?) and generate a 0dBFS 1 KHz sine wave (WAV file from the web). Most analyser software has a 'scope function, so display the trace and check that nothing is clipping (you should have a beautiful sine wave with nice rounded tops) . Now run a spectrum, you should have a single 1KHz spike, way above a load of noise hash. Depending on how good your setup is, the noise should be at least 60dB below the peak.
Now run a 20Hz to 20KHz sweep (average 10 sweeps), you should get a pretty flat response, no dips or bumps.
If this is OK then move through the chain, one step at a time following the above tests at each stage. If the signal is clipping, or there is too much noise, or if you don't get a flat sweep, then you need to find the problem and fix it before you move on.
When you finally get to the speaker terminals, expect more deviation, but the sweeps and noise gap should still be reasonable. Once you move to the speaker / mic combination, then all bets are off. Just remember that unless you are in the middle of a field or an anechoic chamber, then you are measuring the room as much as the speaker.
Good luck.
This is very helpful. I am afraid you are going down the same path we all have when trying to measure something, it is actually quite difficult to get decent results. Welcome to the real world.
Looking at your plots, something is seriously adrift as they are all over the place. My guess is that something is clipping in your monitoring chain or you have a signal grounding problem.
I would suggest you start from scratch.
Connect your analyser to the first step in your chain (PC soundcard?) and generate a 0dBFS 1 KHz sine wave (WAV file from the web). Most analyser software has a 'scope function, so display the trace and check that nothing is clipping (you should have a beautiful sine wave with nice rounded tops) . Now run a spectrum, you should have a single 1KHz spike, way above a load of noise hash. Depending on how good your setup is, the noise should be at least 60dB below the peak.
Now run a 20Hz to 20KHz sweep (average 10 sweeps), you should get a pretty flat response, no dips or bumps.
If this is OK then move through the chain, one step at a time following the above tests at each stage. If the signal is clipping, or there is too much noise, or if you don't get a flat sweep, then you need to find the problem and fix it before you move on.
When you finally get to the speaker terminals, expect more deviation, but the sweeps and noise gap should still be reasonable. Once you move to the speaker / mic combination, then all bets are off. Just remember that unless you are in the middle of a field or an anechoic chamber, then you are measuring the room as much as the speaker.
Good luck.
andyjm said:
Ahh, the perfect explanation of why most people don't 'do' science.....
It requires a rigor and attention to detail that is rare in the modern world, if there is not an 'App' for that it is all rather too much trouble to devise a setup that is viable in any kind of scientific way.
Setting a 'benchmark', a datum line if you like, is essential, as explained above, otherwise you really have no idea what the differences you are measuring are, and what is causing them.
I think it is very brave of Reijer to have a go at this, and I have no doubt that he will learn a lot from his experiments and if he continues, I have no doubt that he will improve his technique.
One suggestion that might help is to try and take your measurements from the louspeaker terminals on the back of the speakers, this cuts out a lot of errors that come from using a microphone.
Back in the day, when we attempted to do level matched listening tests, we used a decent digital multimeter to measure and match the output voltage of different amplifiers at the speaker terminals. Far easier than trying to use a mic or SPL meter and usually pretty accurate, quite eye opening and very informative too.
I don't think his plots are that weird actually, as andyjm mentions. Remember that he is recording this, so he is recording the noise from the room, and keep in mind that his speakers would never be able to get a flat response from 20 - 20000 Hz, maybe anechoically they come remotely close, but definately not in-room. Next his microphone might have a non-flat response of it's own. All these factors cause the plots to be all over the place, which is not unusual.
To avoid all this, measure the output voltage, as was already mentioned.
To avoid all this, measure the output voltage, as was already mentioned.
iMark
Well-known member
I didn't throw a poo. I just stated that I have serious doubts about the judgement in audio affairs about people that have worked in rock music and most likely will have damaged hearing.
Before Neil Young (and many others) can make any claims I would like to see the results of their hearing tests.
Before Neil Young (and many others) can make any claims I would like to see the results of their hearing tests.
Reijer
Well-known member
Thanks for the replies, comments and feedback.
In the comming weeks I will ask my collage of physics how to connect a scope to the terminals of the speakers. Maybe the songcoach of the choir I'm a member of can help me also, he has a small studio and is quite handy with this kind of things.
One thing is for sure: Cables can do differ, even in the cheap region of the speakercableomniuniverse.
Back to everyday things..... *music2*
In the comming weeks I will ask my collage of physics how to connect a scope to the terminals of the speakers. Maybe the songcoach of the choir I'm a member of can help me also, he has a small studio and is quite handy with this kind of things.
One thing is for sure: Cables can do differ, even in the cheap region of the speakercableomniuniverse.
Back to everyday things..... *music2*
Reijer said:
Cables can and do differ. The audible differences however are insignificant within the realms of up-to-spec cables. And unfortunately, although vaguely interesting, your current tests, as alluded to, are fairly meaningless.
cse
Well-known member
I think speaker cable certainly make a dffference. When I upgraded from QED to Nordost I noticed increased clarity and depth of sound.
what i dont understand is if cables dosent make a diffrence why is it i cant see people's signature speaker cable' bell wire',why on one hand some people post cables dont make a diffrence tell us not to buy hifi bling cos its a waste of money but then told tobuy a thick cable with thicker strands from maplin or b@q surely if its all in are heads, bell wire is all we will need surely as dose the same job as the thicker cable.
bombs away .
david
bombs away .
david
steve_1979
Well-known member
davidvann said:
Cables won't make any difference provided their basic specification is upto the necessary standard. Bell wire is not upto this standard because it is too thin causing it to have very high resistance. But any standard copper cable of a suitably thick guage (giving it a low resistance) will sound identical to any other cable (copper, silver or whatever) provided that they both have a low resistance.
Freddy58
Well-known member
davidvann said:
I've decided to encourage people to spend as much as possible on cables, because if they really believe it will make so much difference, I truly want them to waste their money. I only have one problem with this, and that's that the money could actually be used for something good, rather than something wasteful, vain, and utterly pointless.
I noticed someone above has bought cable by Nordost, well I've looked up the meaning of Nordost, and it means 'selling nonsense to the stupid'. It should anyway.
Freddy58
Well-known member
SteveR750
Well-known member
This is interesting for more than the obvous reason.
Some additional context here and here
You cannot imagine that anything this candid appearing on a Roksan/Naim/Arcam facebook page anytime soon, let alone the really big boys.
Some additional context here and here
You cannot imagine that anything this candid appearing on a Roksan/Naim/Arcam facebook page anytime soon, let alone the really big boys.
What amazes on here is that the 'non-believers' feel the need to hammer out their opinions again, again and ... yaeeee ... again
(It probably should'nt after all this time here)
I think by now everyone knows what your views are. Why not just say it once, perhaps twice ... even three times is ok but some of you, no offense to any individuals, just can't refrain from doing it ... AGAIN ... every time someone dares to differ.
Odd. Have you got nothing better to do?
Happy Sunday everyone x
(It probably should'nt after all this time here)
I think by now everyone knows what your views are. Why not just say it once, perhaps twice ... even three times is ok but some of you, no offense to any individuals, just can't refrain from doing it ... AGAIN ... every time someone dares to differ.
Odd. Have you got nothing better to do?
Happy Sunday everyone x
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