Will a new amp tame the treble of my Kef Q300 system?

[Goat]

Hi,

I recently bought my first hi fi system (blind, without demoing stupidly), which consists of a Marantz PM6004, Marantz NA7004 streamer and Kef Q300 speakers. For a CD player, i run my PS3 through optical input into the NA7004.

While the system has (at times) blown me away with the mid range naunces, detail, soundstage, atmosphere, handling of accoustic music etc...there have been times when I simply haven't enjoyed listening to it. And it all comes down to the treble. Symbols almost always sound harsh and unrealistic, treble heavy tracks are unpleasant (kings of leon and pendulum sound dreadful) and I just can't help 'zoning in' on it and focusing on the negative. I suppose the caveat within the What Hi Fi review of the Q300 compounds this further.

I changed cable from QED Silver anniversary to some decent copper cable, this hasn't helped much.

I'm very close to just selling the whole set up and starting again, at a financial loss and investing in warmer speakers with soft tweeters, combined with a more powerful and spritely amp. Thinking spendor, dynaudio, boston acoustics (floorstanders).

But...the above option really is a pretty costly and perhaps pointless exercise and if possible I'd rather 'make the best of' the Kefs and bring out their full potential, smoothing out the highs. So, would investing in a significantly better/different amp to the Marantz really have a significant effect on the treble prominance, or should I really accept that the speakers themselves are just wrong for my ears?

They have had about 60 hours running in.

Thanks for your help.

Dave

 

[stevebrock]

Unfortunately you are the victim of the loudness wars!

Sadly most modern music is poorly mastered/engineered - Pendulum & Kings of Leon being good examples! I find the same listening to Adele & Florence & the machine on my Rega set up! Spin Kate bush 50 words for Snow on cd or vinyl and all is well again..... The thing with artists like Kate bush they actually have input in the mastering - I doubt the engineers care how Adele is mastered cos they know it will sell millions for everyone iPods no matter how poor it sounds.

BTW your system is a good system.....the marantz is warm. Stick with it you just have to accept the shortcomings of poorly mastered CDs - you could try vinyl - I did and never looked back.

 

[Baldrick1]

What interconnects are you using? I have Q300s too and found that with the components in my system the Chord Crimson Plus interconnects I bought originally gave a brighter sound. I swapped to some Atlas Element Integra cables and, for me, the overall sound throughthe speakers mellowed.

Worth exploring this avenue perhaps...but depends on how bright is too bringht. In my case the brightness I heard was not overpowering...just annoying.

Not sure about running in time but I have seen figures, for the Q300s, of at least 80 hours beiing required...but that is just what I have read. Perhaps the more knowledgable on this forum can advise further?

 

[stevebrock]

Cables won't help - poorly mastered CDs is the problem as the OP has already said done music sounds great

the OP has already said he has changed silver cables to copper, the crimson is not a bright cable

 

[Baldrick1]

OK, just making a suggestion based on what I had found. Thought it might be helpful. :silenced:

 

[stevebrock]

Yeah sorry my post sounded a bit aggressive!

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi,

I recently bought my first hi fi system (blind, without demoing stupidly), which consists of a Marantz PM6004, Marantz NA7004 streamer and Kef Q300 speakers. For a CD player, i run my PS3 through optical input into the NA7004.

While the system has (at times) blown me away with the mid range naunces, detail, soundstage, atmosphere, handling of accoustic music etc...there have been times when I simply haven't enjoyed listening to it. And it all comes down to the treble. Symbols almost always sound harsh and unrealistic, treble heavy tracks are unpleasant (kings of leon and pendulum sound dreadful) and I just can't help 'zoning in' on it and focusing on the negative. I suppose the caveat within the What Hi Fi review of the Q300 compounds this further.

I changed cable from QED Silver anniversary to some decent copper cable, this hasn't helped much.

I'm very close to just selling the whole set up and starting again, at a financial loss and investing in warmer speakers with soft tweeters, combined with a more powerful and spritely amp. Thinking spendor, dynaudio, boston acoustics (floorstanders).

But...the above option really is a pretty costly and perhaps pointless exercise and if possible I'd rather 'make the best of' the Kefs and bring out their full potential, smoothing out the highs. So, would investing in a significantly better/different amp to the Marantz really have a significant effect on the treble prominance, or should I really accept that the speakers themselves are just wrong for my ears?

They have had about 60 hours running in.

Thanks for your help.

Dave

Steve is right about recordingand mastering of CDs - some make your system sound fabulous while others can make you gloomy. There is two realistic choices: Either stick with your current system or look at a more ear-friendly amp. If you go with the latter then this will do brilliantly, both matching with your source and speakers and price. http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/arcam/fmj-a18/arca-a18-blk

 

[Goat]

Thank you all for your kind replies.

I hadn't really given due consideration to the variances in recording quality to be honest. That does make sense. Pop in Robert Plant & Alison Kraus and the whole system sounds beautiful, rich, detailed and warming. Similarly, Hot Chip's latest album and FLAC versions of Deadmaus' 'everything before' are just startlingly dynamic and arresting. Even the DAB radio built into the 7004 sounds great sometimes, streaming out BBC 6music!

The above said, I still find that more listening than not grates to an extent. I put this down to the metal tweeter, again perhaps I'm wrong.

Having been doing a lot of research recently, I am currently being drawn towards a potential new system - Epos Epic 2 speakers, Riga Brio amp and keeping the Marantz NA7004 as source. Do you have any comments on potential synergy there?

Dave

 

[plastic penguin]

Just make sure you demo whatever kit you plan to buy. Buying based just on reviews or star ratings alone is a total 'no no', hence why the Arcam may well be a better match with your current system and ears.

Good luck.

 

[Goat]

Thanks for the further info.

What is it about the Arcam A18 in terms of character, which makes you think it could be a better match? Is it generally a smoother sound?

 

[PAULCHRISTOPHER]

Hi I recently bought Some Marantz gear (PM6004, CD6004, & NA7004) and Q Acoustics 2500I 's connected with Van Dam Blue 2.5 cables.Two new CD's One Les Miserables Highlights absolutely superb.One (the wife's) Mick Hucknall American Soul Very unimpressive quality.Sounded worse tham MP3 So I doubt very much that it is your system that is at fault. It is the recordings. My setup is also very good with vynil on an old Technics turtable with plenty of bass.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks for the further info.

What is it about the Arcam A18 in terms of character, which makes you think it could be a better match? Is it generally a smoother sound?

In a word: Control.

I had the same experience. I previously had an enty-level DIVA Arcam amp which was fantastic for the money, but when cranked up a little it didn't have cohesion as when playing at low levels. Enter the Leema, although brighter than the Arcam, and thru the same troublesome tweeters, any shillness had evaporated.

The A18, IMO, is a better amp than the Marantz and has little extra power, which always helps. But a dem will confirm this or not.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You have to be careful when trying to tame "occasional brightness". If you achieve this, it may well make the brighter discs sound more palatable, but then you'll find that the discs that sounded fine are now sounding a little lacklustre. Personally, I don't mind putting up with the odd harsh note here and there in order to put up with a system that sounds great with everything else.

I've only skimmed through the replies so I don't know if I'm repeating anything, but just make sure that your speakers aren't too close to the side walls. Also, do you have a carpeted floor or a laminated floor? Laminated floors tend to reflect high frequencies, so can exaggerate brightness.

And to add to the Arcam suggestion, they've always worked well with KEF speakers - Arcam were demonstrating their new A19 with the R300's at the Bristol show and it was one of the better sounding systems at the show.

 

[mwhyte]

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[peterpan]

You are not alone! I find, and many with me, thattoday speakers have too bright treble! That is because that give attention from the listener who says Wow and buy them. But those speakers you can't have a long listening session. All those "commercial" brands have this. I think the better speakers you will find by Dynaudio, Harbeth, Spendor.

 

[stevebrock]

Loving treble on Rega speakers!

I really think you have to accept some recordings are going to make any speakers treble bad!

I love my system but I know some of my CDs are painful in the treble department - this is all down to poor mastering and having the dynamics trashed for the iPod generation

 

[BigH]

I heard the Rega RS1s with a Rega system and found them to be very dull and veiled sounding, so they may tame the treble but everything else as well, the B&W CM1s were better which I heard after the RS1s, much more open but a bit bassy. Will be trying the Kef LS50s and PMC DB1 Golds next.

Your speakers could be the problem with metal tweeters which may make modern recordings sound harsher. I do agree about some recordings they really are bad, I find a bit strange that some 50 year old jazz recordings sound so much better than recent cds. Try Dave Brubeck's Time Out (OK that is a good recording) but most MIles Davis, Art Pepper, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane etc sound fine.

 

[stevebrock]

the loudness wars strike again!

 

[stevebrock]

the loudness wars strike again!

 

[Cypher]

I've had the Kef Q100 speakers for a while and I was very disappointed with them. The bass was not tight and all over the place, as soon as you played complex/fusion music the speakers couldn't cope with it............they do not organize well and the music became a mess and sounded harsh/bright.

Bought the Monitor Audio BX2.............problems solved. Much better speakers than the kefs.

Just my opinion.

 

[dragon76]

It is certainly true that some speakers have exaggerated top end, and it is certainly true that most of the modern music is poorly mastered with too much brightness and booming bass, but when stating that a system sounds bright and harsh please do not forget that your room plays significant role is what you indeed hear. Some systems may sound bright due to early reflections in a listening room, especially if you have too much of reflective surfaces (glass, concrete).

Goat - can you describe your listening room? This may possibly help in dealing with your issue, and I am pretty sure that changing the amplifier won't strategically solve any of your issues.

 

[Goat]

Room is my bedroom, which is about 8metres x 5 metres - pretty large for a bedroom! I was tempted with floorstanders, but it's a shared house so not really practical especially if i move to a new place in a few months and the room is half the size.

Carpeted, speakers about 1 metre from side walls, nearly a metre from rear wall. Double bed is about a metre in front of the speakers which is where i listen to them (sitting at the head of it, 3 metres from speakers approx). High ceiling. I think to be honest it is mainly down to the tweeter. The midrange is lovely, but it just feels that more often than not, the treble is dominant and 'cuts into' the music and my enjoyment, almost as if it's a separate entity to the rest of the music. I do think that soft domed tweeters are the way to go and perhaps better suited to my tastes. That aside, i never felt the setup was rich and warm enough for my tastes. Always felt a bit thin and edgy.

Couple of developments - managed to sell Marantz amp, which is on its way to someone in London from where i live in Bristol, and looks like I also have a buyer for the Kefs. Because I got the PM6004, NA7004, Kef Q300 and 1 interconnect all for the bargain price of £849 from hificonfidential, I wont actually lose TOO much. Got £150 for the amp and looks to be around £250 for speakers.

Been doing a fair bit of research and I am leaning towards the Epos Epic 2 standmounts or some Dynaudio X12's or DM/7's. Perhaps Spendor. But the latter two are pretty pricey. The Epos Epic 2's look fantastic for the money and also carry a bit more girth to the driver, promising a richer, fuller sound, of course with a soft dome tweeter.

Upon getting the speakers, i will then demo alongside amps to see, which one suits best. Narrowed down to Arcam 18 (or 19 if worth the £350 extra!) or Riga Brio. Possible Nait Naim 5Si but not sure that would work.

Dave

 

[Cypher]

Dynaudio X12 or Dynaudio DM 2/6 / DM 2/7 would be great for you I think. I've never heard a Dynaudio speaker sound harsh or bright.

 

[BigH]

I think the Rega Brio maybe a bit strained in that size room, I heard it recently and it sounded stressed at around 12 o'clock on the dial. I would hear the speaker first, don't rush in. I maybe best to wait until you have moved? You could also consider used gear, there are some good deals around.

The Epos speakers do look good but not heard them myself. I saw this earlier post that may help: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/epos-epic-2s-or-kef-q300-or-monitor-audio-rx2-with-mcr-603

 

[Baldrick1]

Yeah sorry my post sounded a bit aggressive!

No problem Steve. It was at the end of a long weekend I was probably being overly sensitive.