Will the addition of a power amp to an integrated amp improve things?

[Tinman1952]

I think we all sympathise with the OP and his 'striving for improvement'! Been there, done that 🙂
I would just add two comments:
1. Adding a power amp to an integrated is rarely a dramatic improvement because of the limitations of the pre-amp section in an integrated. Many believe it is the quality of the pre-amp that gives your system it's sound character... A separate pre-amp usually has more 'cost budget' for that function.
2. I think the best way to upgrade your 'sound' to achieve a 'better' musical experience is usually a speaker upgrade. It's interesting this is usually the last thing many try. You may indeed 'love' the sound of your current speakers...but then why the dissatisfaction? Speakers can ALWAYS be improved and usually it makes more financial sense too.

 

[podknocker]

I think we all sympathise with the OP and his 'striving for improvement'! Been there, done that 🙂
I would just add two comments:
1. Adding a power amp to an integrated is rarely a dramatic improvement because of the limitations of the pre-amp section in an integrated. Many believe it is the quality of the pre-amp that gives your system it's sound character... A separate pre-amp usually has more 'cost budget' for that function.
2. I think the best way to upgrade your 'sound' to achieve a 'better' musical experience is usually a speaker upgrade. It's interesting this is usually the last thing many try. You may indeed 'love' the sound of your current speakers...but then why the dissatisfaction? Speakers can ALWAYS be improved and usually it makes more financial sense too.

My QA3030i sound great on the end of my Audiolab Omnia, but many reviews suggest they can take much better quality components. I think many modern speakers are capable of very accurate reproduction and you need decent kit to do them justice. If you have fantastic kit, then a speaker upgrade can reveal the improvements, but it's difficult to get the balance right. Speakers are very tricky to get right in many rooms and the quality upstream is often never realised. The limitations are often the acoustics and it's a waste of money chasing that perfect sound, if you can't change, or treat the listening room. DSP and Dirac correction offer a possible cure, but it's not going to be perfect.

 

[Dom]

I'm gonna have a demo of the Q Acoustics 5040 at Sevenoaks Hi fi, next week.

 

[Stuart83]

The search for perceived perfection afflicts me as well, it is both fun and frustrating in equal measure.

Like you the idea of a pre/power combination to improve control within the system appeals to me, many will say that a good integrated is all you need (and they could well be right) but I like the idea of a the potential flexibility that a well sorted pre/power combo gives.

I have also been looking at improving the power supply to each unit as this may also improve sound, but I am also aware that I may be chasing a minute improvement in sound at a considerable cost so lots of research required before I contemplate this route.

My HiFi store has been keen on me having a subwoofer for some time but at the moment I don't think that it is necessary, I would rather spend the money on more music.

The more I get into the wonderful world of HiFi the more I realise that there are some viable routes to sound improvement to follow and some to avoid at all costs, I also understand that I am unlikely to be alone on my journey and that others are able to offer help and suggestions.

Keep the thread up to date with your findings as I for one am interested in how you get on.

It will be a pleasure to share my findings.
It was mentioned by "nopiano" a speaker upgrade would be of a better impact yet I demoed a few to decide on the q acoustics 3050i Inc 2 sets of Dali's mentioned as a possible improvement.
Richer sounds seem to stock more of them than anything else now and both me and a friend found them "flat" when combined with the roskan k3 I came home with.
I've never heard the PMC speakers also mentioned.

I fully understand that the biggest difference in sound is made from the amp and speakers given that the other anciliries are of decent quality, hence the power amp theory, but think I might stay with the QA for now.
(I personally found them to outperform speakers over 1500 £ and more)

If I was to change speakers I would be looking to demo missions especially the new version of an old model the "700".
I've always liked mission from my first pair of 760i as a kid to the mx3s I've gotten hold of because of them being a favourite for a second hifi.

I've had 5 sets of missions all together and liked evey set especially the older 763i speakers I was gifted from my father only recently with a full 1991-93 award winning hifi.
Pioneer a400
System deck iix
Aiwa 3 head tape deck
Yamaha slave deck
Aiwa tuner
Marantz cd52 mk2
Mission 763i
Even the apollo hifi rack came with them 😊

Some of the vintage separates ended up in my main hifi despite demoing and purchasing new kit including the Marantz cd52 mk2, as mentioned in another post its that good I actually swapped it back over with its newer 6007 intended replacement into my second hifi set for it after replacing the common edject wheel cog fault I missed its sound so much.

Initially I looked at mission speakers again for the upgrade mainly the LX and QX series but when looking I stumbled into the QA 3050i which combined with the reviews and accolades I had to demo along side a few others.

Richer sounds no longer deal in mission and only order in so I couldn't get to hear them.
I try to avoid buying blind but after the QA's performance I'd heard enough.
Imo they totally outperformed the Dali's I'd heard only a minute prior in the demo room costing twice as much.
I wasn't alone in my findings that day.

It took various demoes of other amps and owning a few to find the acram sa30 the only one I liked as much as my favourite pioneer a400.
I did hang back until the software niggles were addressed having a roskan k3 in the interim time.
(2 units went faulty which is a story on its own)
I did like the roskan k3 especially with classical where it really shines but overall it lacked the lush warmth of the sa30.

Modernising and needing 2 hifis is the only reason the pioneer a400 is not inclusive to the main setup plus of course the driving force we all know of looking to improve.

I cannot describe how good a pioneer a400 is having heard and owned what's to most a vast number of especially vintage kit.

The system deck iix found its way into the main setup only this time with a full service and goldring e3 cartridge.
It speaks for itself in terms of quality evertime it's played.

For Bluetooth ive already done that dance and stayed with ifizen for the occasional phone connection.

Despite all of this and liking the Marantz cd52 mk2 I'm looking at separate cd transports, my thinking is that for the same budget as a new player one will get higher quality when concentrated on the transport only as to combine with the existing high quality saber es dac on the acram sa30.

I know the Marantz is capable of running as a cd transport aswell with a digit coaxial which I will try to see if there's anything much different.

One thing I have which can be for better or worse is an analytical mind.
I can't lie to myself about improvement if it's not factually there.
I can't validate a purchase by convincing myself something sounds better if it doesn't.

I do though recognise that even a little improvement goes a long way if combining it with other, however slight advances in sound quality.
Having access to richer sounds and their willingness to let me demo things willy nilly although I suspect it's because I've purchased from them various times helps so I'm not having to buy things blind and throw money away doing so.

Unfortunately however they only obviously have what they stock which is usually whats currently doing well in the mass market user reviews and press.

I yearn to hear a valve amp and assume I will like it yet have never been near one.
They are far too expensive to be just buying with a blind assumption but I'd like it if someone can explain what they sound like effectively.

Given all this I am very happy with the sound of my hifi but it's still an ongoing process, I'm not as some might think just throwing money around needlessly.
I demo things or if I'm convinced of something will improve things that can't be heard first purchase wisely or even second hand.

This forum and it's users Inc yourself I've found to be very helpful and a joy to talk with.

 

[Stuart83]

I'm gonna have a demo of the Q Acoustics 5040 at Sevenoaks Hi fi, next week.

Let me know what you think 🤔

 

[Oxfordian]

It will be a pleasure to share my findings.
It was mentioned by "nopiano" a speaker upgrade would be of a better impact yet I demoed a few to decide on the q acoustics 3050i Inc 2 sets of Dali's mentioned as a possible improvement.
Richer sounds seem to stock more of them than anything else now and both me and a friend found them "flat" when combined with the roskan k3 I came home with.
I've never heard the PMC speakers also mentioned.

I fully understand that the biggest difference in sound is made from the amp and speakers given that the other anciliries are of decent quality, hence the power amp theory, but think I might stay with the QA for now.
(I personally found them to outperform speakers over 1500 £ and more)

If I was to change speakers I would be looking to demo missions especially the new version of an old model the "700".
I've always liked mission from my first pair of 760i as a kid to the mx3s I've gotten hold of because of them being a favourite for a second hifi.

I've had 5 sets of missions all together and liked evey set especially the older 763i speakers I was gifted from my father only recently with a full 1991-93 award winning hifi.
Pioneer a400
System deck iix
Aiwa 3 head tape deck
Yamaha slave deck
Aiwa tuner
Marantz cd52 mk2
Mission 763i
Even the apollo hifi rack came with them 😊

Some of the vintage separates ended up in my main hifi despite demoing and purchasing new kit including the Marantz cd52 mk2, as mentioned in another post its that good I actually swapped it back over with its newer 6007 intended replacement into my second hifi set for it after replacing the common edject wheel cog fault I missed its sound so much.

Initially I looked at mission speakers again for the upgrade mainly the LX and QX series but when looking I stumbled into the QA 3050i which combined with the reviews and accolades I had to demo along side a few others.

Richer sounds no longer deal in mission and only order in so I couldn't get to hear them.
I try to avoid buying blind but after the QA's performance I'd heard enough.
Imo they totally outperformed the Dali's I'd heard only a minute prior in the demo room costing twice as much.
I wasn't alone in my findings that day.

It took various demoes of other amps and owning a few to find the acram sa30 the only one I liked as much as my favourite pioneer a400.
I did hang back until the software niggles were addressed having a roskan k3 in the interim time.
(2 units went faulty which is a story on its own)
I did like the roskan k3 especially with classical where it really shines but overall it lacked the lush warmth of the sa30.

Modernising and needing 2 hifis was the only reason it's not inclusive to the main setup plus of course the driving force we all know of looking to improve.

I cannot describe how good a pioneer a400 is having heard and owned what's to most a vast number of especially vintage kit.

The system deck iix found its way into the main setup only this time with a full service and goldring e3 cartridge.
It speaks for itself in terms of quality evertime it's played.

For Bluetooth ive already done that dance and stayed with ifizen for the occasional phone connection.

Despite all of this and liking the Marantz cd52 mk2 I'm looking at separate cd transports, my thinking is that for the same budget as a new player one will get higher quality when concentrated on the transport only as to combine with the existing high quality saber es dac on the acram sa30.

I know the Marantz is capable of running as a cd transport aswell with a digit coaxial which I will try to see if there's anything much different.

One thing I have which can be for better or worse is an analytical mind.
I can't lie to myself about improvement if it's not factually there.
I can't validate a purchase by convincing myself something sounds better if it doesn't.

I do though recognise that even a little improvement goes a long way if combining it with other, however slight advances in sound quality.
Having access to richer sounds and their willingness to let me demo things willy nilly although I suspect it's because I've purchased from them various times helps so I'm not having to buy things blind and throw money away doing so.

Unfortunately however they only obviously have what they stock which is usually whats currently doing well in the mass market user reviews and press.

I yearn to hear a valve amp and assume I will like it yet have never been near one.
They are far too expensive to be just buying with a blind assumption but I'd like it if someone can explain what they sound like effectively.

Given all this I am very happy with the sound of my hifi but it's still an ongoing process, I'm not as some might think just throwing money around needlessly.
I demo things or if I'm convinced of something will improve things that can't be heard first purchase wisely or even second hand.

This forum and it's users Inc yourself I've found to be very helpful and a joy to talk with.

Money to be spent only when and where necessary, not frittered away.

My understanding of the route to better SQ is source first, then amplification, finally speakers. At the moment my system has an imbalance based on price, the Hegel is first, then the speakers and lastly the sources vinyl and CD.

So my hunt for a new TT is priority, then I am going to assess my CD spinner, once these are sorted I will look at the rest of the system and decide which route to take.

The issue I have is that I live nowhere near anywhere so blagging stuff to test at home is going to be hard work.

 

[Oxfordian]

I think we all sympathise with the OP and his 'striving for improvement'! Been there, done that 🙂
I would just add two comments:
1. Adding a power amp to an integrated is rarely a dramatic improvement because of the limitations of the pre-amp section in an integrated. Many believe it is the quality of the pre-amp that gives your system it's sound character... A separate pre-amp usually has more 'cost budget' for that function.
2. I think the best way to upgrade your 'sound' to achieve a 'better' musical experience is usually a speaker upgrade. It's interesting this is usually the last thing many try. You may indeed 'love' the sound of your current speakers...but then why the dissatisfaction? Speakers can ALWAYS be improved and usually it makes more financial sense too.

Not sure that I would agree on speakers being the best musical upgrade, was this not how things were before Mr Linn came along and got people realising that the speakers only reproduce the sound that they are given, the rubbish in rubbish out theory?

My understanding is that you should focus funds on source before power and power before speakers.

Now I have not followed that mantra and have what could be considered an unbalanced system, so addressing my weak front end with source upgrades is my priority.

 

[Dom]

Let me know what you think 🤔

Its gonna be hard, but I'll try

 

[podknocker]

It's true speakers cannot add any quality not provided by the source or amp, but it's difficult to determine how much quality your speakers can reveal, unless you listen to several source and amplifier components. I think my fairly average speakers would sound better at the end of something else, but then would the new source/amp sound better still with new speakers? It's a merry go round and unless you have infinite funds, you need to decide your budget and get the best fit. It's true speakers will only sound as good as your source and amp, but as I said earlier, many speakers are really high quality and it's difficult pushing many speakers any further, without resorting to very expensive CD/amp etc. Would my Audiolab Omnia sound MUCH better with a pair of Spendor D7.2 speakers, rather than the current QA3030i, or would my speakers with a NAD M33 sound better then the other combination? I'm currently watching BBC news over WIFI on my laptop and the sound is over bluetooth to my Omnia. I've never heard the news sound so clear and precise. I might get a marginal increase in quality with new speakers, but at what cost? I might get a better sound from a TV using HDMI, but that means buying a telly! It's so expensive upgrading components, with often marginal increases in quality and it's very wasteful particularly when your current components are in good working order and perhaps, like my Omnia, still under warranty. I will try and demo some kit at Richer Sounds this year, but listening in the shop will not tell me how it would sound in my living room. The logistics of home trials with massive speakers, isn't really practical. The new small and light Class D streamers are very easy to carry, so that would be an option. I love the sound of my system and I reckon I would need a four fold increase in spend to achieve something spectacular and obviously better in terms of resolution and dynamics.

 

[abacus]

Not sure that I would agree on speakers being the best musical upgrade, was this not how things were before Mr Linn came along and got people realising that the speakers only reproduce the sound that they are given, the rubbish in rubbish out theory?

My understanding is that you should focus funds on source before power and power before speakers.

Now I have not followed that mantra and have what could be considered an unbalanced system, so addressing my weak front end with source upgrades is my priority.

That mantra is good if you have plenty of dough and don't mind waiting while you save up for the rest of the system.
The speakers make the largest difference in any system after the room, plus the better the speakers the more you will hear the improvements in the source and amps when you upgrade them, this will give you more satisfaction that you spent the money wisely, do it the opposite way round and you will wonder why you ever bothered in the first place, due to the very small differences you may possibly hear.

Bill

 

[Tinman1952]

Not sure that I would agree on speakers being the best musical upgrade, was this not how things were before Mr Linn came along and got people realising that the speakers only reproduce the sound that they are given, the rubbish in rubbish out theory?

My understanding is that you should focus funds on source before power and power before speakers.

Now I have not followed that mantra and have what could be considered an unbalanced system, so addressing my weak front end with source upgrades is my priority.

You make an interesting point but remember when 'Mr Linn' made that comment he was promoting his turntables.....which were most people's source at the time. I suspect he pinched the 'garbage in, garbage out' line from a friend in IT....
In my experience the quality of the speakers and how they 'match' the room is fundamental. Then get the amplifier which will drive those speakers properly.
Any 'improvements' to source components are at best 'marginal' compared to this....especially in the current digital era.

 

[nads]

Can’t comment on your kit but adding a power amp to my integrated and then using them to Bi amp my speakers made a big difference.

 

[Oxfordian]

That mantra is good if you have plenty of dough and don't mind waiting while you save up for the rest of the system.
The speakers make the largest difference in any system after the room, plus the better the speakers the more you will hear the improvements in the source and amps when you upgrade them, this will give you more satisfaction that you spent the money wisely, do it the opposite way round and you will wonder why you ever bothered in the first place, due to the very small differences you may possibly hear.

Bill

But that works both ways, my ATC 7’s cost around £1k, if I go and spend £2k on a pair of rather nice speakers what extras will I hear? Won’t that just be the same sound that currently exists as there is no change to the sound that goes to the speakers, if my source is upgraded first then a better sound goes to my existing speakers and I get to hear more?

Now if my speakers cost £150 and I spent £2k to upgrade them then yes I would agree the listener would probably be surprised at what they hear as there should be a very noticeable improvement in the SQ.

I will still improve my source first simply because I believe that to get quality out you have to put quality in, changing my 7’s for something else isn’t going to get any more out of the grooves in my vinyl, but a new cartridge, tonearm or complete deck will (or at least should).

 

[Oxfordian]

You make an interesting point but remember when 'Mr Linn' made that comment he was promoting his turntables.....which were most people's source at the time. I suspect he pinched the 'garbage in, garbage out' line from a friend in IT....
In my experience the quality of the speakers and how they 'match' the room is fundamental. Then get the amplifier which will drive those speakers properly.
Any 'improvements' to source components are at best 'marginal' compared to this....especially in the current digital era.

I agree that a system needs to be balanced but I dispute that source should be last in line.

In many cases our rooms are what they are, we cannot all have dedicated rooms with room treatment to improve sound carried out, I am lucky in having use of a spare bedroom but it still has to function as a bedroom when the need arises.

Having an amplifier up to the job of driving your speakers goes without saying, apparently mine is okay based on stats but there are reports that I could use a bit more grunt to drive the 7’s and get the best out of them, it’s always better to have a bit of power in reserve so I’m told.

Now I’m a vinyl then CD junkie, streaming is not as yet a source that interests me, my source equipment if fine it does its job but both could be better and I believe that improvements in source then amplification will improve what I hear out of the 7’s.

 

[Dom]

£2k speaker's should sound better, but against £1k speakers the difference will be subtle.

 

[DougK1]

But that works both ways, my ATC 7’s cost around £1k, if I go and spend £2k on a pair of rather nice speakers what extras will I hear? Won’t that just be the same sound that currently exists as there is no change to the sound that goes to the speakers, if my source is upgraded first then a better sound goes to my existing speakers and I get to hear more?

Now if my speakers cost £150 and I spent £2k to upgrade them then yes I would agree the listener would probably be surprised at what they hear as there should be a very noticeable improvement in the SQ.

I will still improve my source first simply because I believe that to get quality out you have to put quality in, changing my 7’s for something else isn’t going to get any more out of the grooves in my vinyl, but a new cartridge, tonearm or complete deck will (or at least should).

The only way you will find anything out for definite is to go to a dealer for a listen. I believe you are in Cornwall, surely there must be dealers within an hour journey of your house?

 

[abacus]

But that works both ways, my ATC 7’s cost around £1k, if I go and spend £2k on a pair of rather nice speakers what extras will I hear? Won’t that just be the same sound that currently exists as there is no change to the sound that goes to the speakers, if my source is upgraded first then a better sound goes to my existing speakers and I get to hear more?

Now if my speakers cost £150 and I spent £2k to upgrade them then yes I would agree the listener would probably be surprised at what they hear as there should be a very noticeable improvement in the SQ.

I will still improve my source first simply because I believe that to get quality out you have to put quality in, changing my 7’s for something else isn’t going to get any more out of the grooves in my vinyl, but a new cartridge, tonearm or complete deck will (or at least should).

If you go for a big jump up in speakers, then you will hear a lot more than what you are hearing now due to the speakers being more resolving, with greater range.
There is nothing wrong with going source first, but the differences will be miniscule in comparison to changing the speakers, as the current ones are not resolving enough for you to notice the difference.
Room, (You would be surprised how a few minor changes can make a big difference to the sound) Speakers/Amp, source is always the best way to go.

Bill

 

[podknocker]

If you go for a big jump up in speakers, then you will hear a lot more than what you are hearing now due to the speakers being more resolving, with greater range.
There is nothing wrong with going source first, but the differences will be miniscule in comparison to changing the speakers, as the current ones are not resolving enough for you to notice the difference.
Room, (You would be surprised how a few minor changes can make a big difference to the sound) Speakers/Amp, source is always the best way to go.

Bill

A big jump in speakers and the ability to resolve further might also reveal shortcomings in your setup and not necessarily bring you more quality. Each part of the puzzle will contribute its own character and improving 1 component is not always an instant fix. It's a balancing trick and synergy will always play a part.

 

[Dom]

The novice will buy top quality Hi fi to get top-notch sound quality.

The veteran will buy cheaper Hi fi, because he'll know what works for him and what doesn't.

 

[12th Monkey]

I think that implies a degree of dispassionate wisdom that often (gradually) goes out of the window. As for what works, there's just as much scope for trial and error for those of us who would like to think we know what we're doing.

 

[Stuart83]

I can only generalise but will say in my experience like I've said prior "providing the other ancillaries are decent" an amp and speakers make the main difference in the sound I hear.

Given that the same signal aka sound is given from let's say a "cd player" then only the amps process can colour the sound from there and then next in line the speakers, which where to me the main difference comes from.
They all have their own unique way of handling the sound the amp produces from the cd player.

Only recently I changed speakers on the same hifi and the difference is immediate and huge.
It doesn't have to be a quality of sound but the difference in how it's handled and put out.

I'm not saying that a said cd player doesn't make a difference but it's more slight.

Cr?p in cr?p out, but given the cr?p in isnt crap and is a set sound then it's the handling of the set signal that makes the difference.

I will say I've always changed speakers for the most immediate effect usually upgrading but have changed makers and models from stand mount to floorstanders speakers a few times when changing rooms or property.

The change is massive, but now I've found the speakers I like am looking at next in the chain giving that the Marantz cd52 mk2 is a favourite of mine.

I will concur rooms make a much bigger impact than expected.

I've found hifi to be more of a journey than a destination.

 

[My2Cents]

Only if it goes to 11

 

[Oxfordian]

The only way you will find anything out for definite is to go to a dealer for a listen. I believe you are in Cornwall, surely there must be dealers within an hour journey of your house?

I have a dealer in Truro with high end Project, Clear Audio, MacIntosh, Totem, nice guys but than the TT's nothing of interest, Exeter in the next county has more choice and where I will probably start my search, and I have a dealer in Penzance who has a mix of brands and a wide range of prices.

So, so different now from my dealings when I lived in Kent where I had so many shops within 30-40 minutes of my old house.

But there is no rush, I can take my time and keep looking and listening until I find what I want.

 

[Oxfordian]

I've found hifi to be more of a journey than a destination.

That for me is what it should be, no matter what set-up you have and how perfect it sounds today there is always something coming round the corner to make you question what you have and how that could impact on what you hear.

Of course you can always stick, but there is always the thought; what if I twist!!