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Vinyl vs digital

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Feb 18, 2015
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Hi again newlash.I reckon that's the best way forward,with you having no lp's....if you had a few hundred albums then by all means give vinyl a go but starting from scratch....it is very hard to justify the cost.

Also....try and dem a couple of other streamers when the time comes.....even units that maybe less expensive than the linn....I've not heard any linn kit as yet...with me being Scottish..that's a bit weird.lol.Also give the naim nd5xs a listen also,it should be a bit of a different presentation from the linn that you might prefer or not but just keep your options open.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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newlash09 said:
...And most of the advise so far, seems to indicate that I will have to spend more than the Linn, to get equal sound quality with a turn table. And I also am yet to buy my first record. So getting sufficient records will again entail further investment down the road.

So considering the sizeable investment involved, iam tilting in favour of the Linn, as it seems to be a easier way forward. And will save me a lot in way of buying records. That has been my thought process so far. Thanks again all.

:)
To me, that just illustrates that "most people" don't realise how good a vinyl source can be put together for how little money. Which is fair enough as it involves dipping your toes into trying stuff outside the comfortable dealer demo first route, which many people are reluctant to do.

I've heard systems with Linn Klimax DS's in them. Didn't like most of them. That's because they all had below average to mediocre Linn speakers in them. A system with a £20 used CD player with purist £500 speakers will sound better than a system with a Klimax DS and all Linn speakers of Akubarik level and below. I'm confident it would also sound better than a system with Klimax DS and PMC twenty 26 speakers.

Think of it as a Speakers First rule in system building when dealing with digital sources. Only upgrade your digital source once you've maxed out your speakers.

I think that not buying a turntable is a wise decision on your part newlash09, mainly because you don't have easy access to inexpensive routes to buy large quantities of vinyl records. I'm thinking of things like the 1000 classical lp job lot I bought (quite a few years ago now) from a school for £35.
 
Feb 18, 2015
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Hay Lindsay.I think it's time you named said giant killing £500 speakers that you keep going on about and let others into your secret of world class setups costing next to nothing in hi-fi terms.I for one would be interested to know such things.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
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newlash09 said:
And thought that I'd go to signals in Ipswich to audition the majik DS. It has been recommended very heavily as a source.
...In no small part by me! *angel*

FWIW. I think David was right just to put the brakes on the negativity regarding Vinyl...including mine (though I still stand by a lot of what I said)....but any decision has to be an informed one, based on personal investigation (through a good dealer).

In your case, as you have no Vinyl, going the TT route should be seen as an interesting diversion, rather than the main event.

A Streamer (like the Linn), not only gives fantastic SQ, but versitility that a TT can only dream of ...but that isn't what a TT is about. Think of a TT, like jumping into a Morgan for a drive at the weekend, as the Golf is left in the garage (imo).

The 2 main alternatives for a streamer, would be Linn and Naim. I have done this comparison many times...and have found the differences to be quite noticeable....you will probably be drawn to one or the other.

Bring an eclectic range of music, including albums you know very well.....I would recommend having some classical music in that, so you can listen for how piano, violin and soprano are portrayed.

Personally, I look for refinement, naturalness, exitement and emotional connection with the music.

Good luck and update us on how you get on.
 

plastic penguin

Well-known member
Apr 28, 2008
1,880
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20,070
AS I mentioned previously, you need to have a genuine like for the format to make the investment worthwhile. If you are a modern hipster who just wants a table to impress others, that grates with me.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Mark Rose-Smith said:
Hay Lindsay.I think it's time you named said giant killing £500 speakers that you keep going on about and let others into your secret of world class setups costing next to nothing in hi-fi terms.I for one would be interested to know such things.
Would you like me to bring an example round to your place to compare against your PMC's?
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Mark, if you don't have the space then carry on enjoying your PMC's. As they are the right compromise for you.

As for the £500 purist speakers, it's not so much any particular make or model. It's more of a genre from which anyone with the mind to, can buy the best deal they come across.

And for anyone who already has £3000 speakers and is thinking of buying a Linn DS, and who wants modern slimline speakers, my suggestion would be to try speakers with Accuton drivers first. They won't be cheap, but would offer more of an upgrade than a Linn DS.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
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Mark Rose-Smith said:
Hay Lindsay.I think it's time you named said giant killing £500 speakers that you keep going on about and let others into your secret of world class setups costing next to nothing in hi-fi terms.I for one would be interested to know such things.
His old Ev sentry speakers
Ive heard them and they are as good as he says
Very real live sound. Will out many high end (high cost) systems to shame
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
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lindsayt said:
...my suggestion would be to try speakers with Accuton drivers first.
Those Accuton drivers look well engineered and are very expensive. There are some very unusual and interesting looking designs.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-11-woofers/accuton-as250-8-552-cell-11-woofer/

Do you know of any speakers that use these drivers?
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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My understanding is that Coincident, Vaughn, Clearwave, plus a few others use Accuton drivers. Plus there's the option of DIY.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Andrewjvt said:
His old Ev sentry speakers Ive heard them and they are as good as he says Very real live sound. Will out many high end (high cost) systems to shame
EV Sentries are one example. There are other purist speakers that can be bought for £500. Examples include bigger Bozaks, classic Altecs, Urei, JBL. If it looks like a purist speaker it probably is a purist speaker, and that will be reflected in the sound when comparing to middle of the range Linn and PMC.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
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A lot of good points have been made so far...but if you want my personal perspective, it would be this:

I got into hifi in the mid 70s, where Vinyl was the main source, backed up by Cassette Tape, or if you were lucky, Reel to Reel. The importance of the Record deck was seen as paramount, often with half your budget being spent on it. The sound back then was often mellower and easier on the ear...which is why many of us from that era are sensitive to the very clean, often sterile sound of many modern systems....which has us quickly retreating to the safety of Valves, Class A, Vinyl and traditional speaker brands like Harbeth and Spendor.

From us old farts, Vinyl can often be seen through rose-tinted spectacles...where all albums were gloriously musical and wrapped you up in a lovely warm cocoon of euphony.

Newer enthusiasts are fascinated by this intriguing piece of "witchcraft" from yesteryear, where music is somehow produced by lowering a needle onto a spinning vinyl plate, with grooves cut in it....and prior to that, Shellac (a a resin secreted by the female lac bug, on trees in the forests of India and Thailand). Somehow, this has an appeal that goes far beyond the music.

Vinyl is a vocation. This is not about sticking a silver disc in a drawer and pressing play on a remote, or clicking an icon on a computer. It is a ritual fed by tactile and sensual inputs. Record covers are a mini canvas for artwork, out of which slides an inner slieve, that protects the treasure inside. This treasure needs nurtured and when put on the Platter, changed after about 20 minutes, to Side 2.

As Mark said above, this is a rabbit hole that runs deep. You find yourself in a whole new world of Deck designs, Arms, Cartridges (Moving Coil/Magnet), phono stages, alignment, tracking angles, tracking weight, anti-skate, feedback, earthing, static, Vinyl quality. Whether you see this as unmitigated torture, or magnificent hobby, is down to the individual. If you are a hands on tweaker, you'll love it; if not, you may find the whole thing gives you a migraine. So my advice is know what you are getting into and (as has been said), work with a dealer that knows his way around a Vinyl set up.

I agree with DDC, that to do Vinyl justice, you need to be prepared to spend more money on it, than you would a budget Digital Source. Back in the day, I went from a Trio KD1033B -> Rega 2 -> Rega 3 -> LP12/Asak/Ittok.

I loved the sound....but it's worth remembering, that there were also differing qualities of Vinyl / Mastering....and it could sound nasty, so this is not an automatic route to audiophile Valhalla....but done right, can be very rewarding.....and the albums that came out pre CD almost always sound better in their original Vinyl form.

I didn't like the sound of early CDPs and only changed when Linn brought out their Karik/Numerik....which was the only analogue sounding one I'd heard.

I also think, that assuming Digital can't sound musical and engaging, is simply wrong. If an album is well recorded....and Linn Records show how well this can be done....the result can be very natural, dynamic and life-like. The problem is that music for popular appeal is very poorly recorded, so it will sound loud on an iphone with cheap headphones.

I don't miss the faff of a TT (but I got it out of my system....so to speak). By carefully selecting my system based on components that deliver the soul and texture of the music before all else, I am listening to the best sounds of my life.

So to sum up, if like Neo from The Matrix, you want to take the Red Pill and see how deep the rabbit hole goes, then:

- Be prepared to spend...both on the TT and building up a record collection from scratch

- Understand that this is not a "plug n' play" solution. For instance, if you have an old wooden floor, just walking around can make the needle jump.

- Realize the sound you will get will be different, but not necessarily better.

- Be aware, that back in the day, there were many more sealed speakers, which cope with the rumble from a warped record better.

Anyway, I've waffled on enough and hopefully have given a little insight that might be helpful.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Mark Rose-Smith said:
Would klipsch heresay ii be in this category?
No. Too small to be purist. The designer prioritised small size and low manufacturing costs over sound quality.

With the result that the tonal balance is too lean.

As part of a lifestyle system they're fine.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Al ears said:
Possibly. I could never get my head around the concept of a 'purist' speaker.

Anyone got a definition?? ;-)
We can all have our own definitions on this.

Purist speakers are ones where the designer gave greater priority to sound quality than any other factor.

If you watch ellisdj's excellent recent video where he interviewed Kef's chief designer, it's apparent that most modern Kef's start from the point of view of "What's the best sounding speaker we can make, from a starting position of certain size and cost restraints?"

More purist speakers are designed more from the point of view of "What's the best sounding speaker we can make, and then what do have to do to acheive this?"

Another way of looking at it is how much were the engineers given free reign, versus how much were the speakers determined by Marketing?
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
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10,970
lindsayt said:
Al ears said:
Possibly. I could never get my head around the concept of a 'purist' speaker.

Anyone got a definition?? ;-)
We can all have our own definitions on this.

Purist speakers are ones where the designer gave greater priority to sound quality than any other factor.

If you watch ellisdj's excellent recent video where he interviewed Kef's chief designer, it's apparent that most modern Kef's start from the point of view of "What's the best sounding speaker we can make, from a starting position of certain size and cost restraints?"

More purist speakers are designed more from the point of view of "What's the best sounding speaker we can make, and then what do have to do to acheive this?"

Another way of looking at it is how much were the engineers given free reign, versus how much were the speakers determined by Marketing?
when you say purist speakers

i take it that some speaker manufactures buy in there speaker drivers and just build the cabinets so I take it that company's that do build and design there own drivers and cabinets and come up with new technology's is that classed as purist ? Because Dali make there own drivers and there own speaker cabinets plus come up with new technologies that other speaker manufacturers have not come up with .

like Dali's soft driver magnetic compounds SMC technology

or are we talking about sourcing the finest components and dropping them all into a speaker cabinet ?
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
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Mark Rose-Smith said:
I think we're talking about the days when manufacturers built speakers without constraints on size and cost (to a certain degree).these types of speakers tend to be very large and butt ugly.lol.
like Yamaha used to make the 1000m speakers and they sound lovely and now they make one like it for £15000
 
Feb 18, 2015
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I think we're talking about the days when manufacturers built speakers without constraints on size and cost (to a certain degree).these types of speakers tend to be very large and butt ugly.lol.

Ps check out the tannoy autograph box....probably at the higher end of the market but I reckon these are the definition of what a Purist speaker is.
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
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For being absent so many days. We blew our main engine turbo charger on our way out from Vancouver. And then self got busy with month end paper work too..haven't been through everything expressed here..and will revert with my thoughts . Thanks.
 

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