System with no speakers?

[rubberhedgehog]

Hi all

I have spent the last few weeks reading through these forums and been to my local store to try to find what I'm looking for.

At the moment I listen to my music with AKG K551 closed back headphones played through my computer. I am aware of a background hiss which my speaker card is introducing to the tracks (tried it with no music playing and you can hear all sorts of things going on in there!).

I live in an apartment so I can't really have huge floor standers and crank it up to 11 :shhh:

I really enjoy the sound with my AKGs, and the fact that little noise leaks from them is a great bonus since I can listen in bed and not disturb anyone.

To the point, I am looking for a CD and receiver/amp. I have tried out the Marantz CD6004 and PM6004 and found that on the track I was testing it was covering up the sound of the lead guitar when played through all of the speakers in my price range (<£300). I switched to demo the CA 351 cd and amp and the sound was much clearer. I would be happy with the CA setup, provided I learnt which number all of my inputs are connected to!

I then moved on to different speakers. I have read so many great things about the Monitor Audio BX2s that I just assumed I would be blown away by them. Unfortunately they sounded very vague with the Marantz - sort of lacking any sort of presence at all. I tried them with the Cambridge Audio and found them slightly better. The real winner, however, has been my headphones! The sound coming from both receivers was excellent. The music had great clarity and good bass that my computer just can't replicate.

Since I wasn't impressed with the speakers I tried out £1,000 Dali floorstanders just to see what I was missing. I've got to say that they were much better than the stand speakers I tried earlier, however, the track I chose ("Numb" by Gary Clark Jr :dance: ) has a short bass piece just before some lead guitar comes in and though this was heard in the BX2s, this wasn't present in the Dali speakers.

From my experience today I am strongly thinking about using a Cd player and amp/receiver and plugging my headphones directly in to them - bypassing the speakers all together until I can justify spending a lot more money than my headphones cost on them. The only one listening to the music would be me, so I don't actually NEED to have the speakers.

Does anyone run a system with only a single output to headphones?

Can anyone suggest further speakers that I should be giving a try to the CA 351 equipment?

Thanks!

 

[rubberhedgehog]

Forgot to mention:

Budget is £300 for each component (CD, amp, speakers), possibly stretch to £1,000 for all 3.

If going just for headphones then I think £750 for Cd and amp is ok.

Music I listen to is blues and rock

 

[BigH]

If you don't get speakers do you need an amp? Some cdp you can just plug the headphones in or you can get a headphone amp. WHF did a group test this month.

As for computer sound have you dug down into the headphone settings on the sound card? I changed mine from default to high output and it made a huge difference, mind the volume though. Or you may want to upgrade your soundcard, mine is a Xonar not that expensive, can get them for about £20, of course there are more expensive versions.

 

[philipjohnwright]

If you like the headphones via computer approach then stick with it. Just get a USB DAC that has a headhone output and you'll have a really good setup. Like really good. And it needn't cost a lot - try the Meridian Explorer at £250, which seems to be getting rave reviews from everyone. Only issue there I think is that the volume control is software based, if you prefer a knob then there are plenty of others. For instance just out of your price range at £1150 there's the new Mytek DSD Dac, which would not be out of play in a very high end system.

As and when you do get an amp and speakers you can run the DAC through them whilst still having the headphone output.

The above assumes you are listening to uncompressed music on your computer. If not it would be worth re-ripping it, although 256 or 320 MP3's (or equivalent) aren't bad at all in reality despite what some say. Basically if you spend a bit of time and effort optimising things on your computer it will be worthwhile though.

 

[gregvet]

I would suggest you consider a slightly different system. Either your computer direct into an audiolab m-dac, or if the pc is not conveniently sited, use an airport express with the m-dac. Either way, you will need to rip your CDs to iTunes on your computer, but this will be much more flexible than what you have currently, as you can stream spotify etc through the pc or airport express, as well as your music files in cd quality.

The headphone amp built into the m-dac is supposed to be excellent, and able to handle high end phones, so should sound great with your current cans.

Further down the line, if you want, you can add a power amp and passive speakers of your choice, or even active speakers if the mood takes you!

 

[John Duncan]

I'd buy a USB DAC/headphone amp from someone like Firestone or Fiio. Some are teeny weeny and USB powered so needn't be awkward to use.

 

[matt49]

The headphone amp built into the m-dac is supposed to be excellent, and able to handle high end phones, so should sound great with your current cans.

+1

Good call. It's an excellent headphone stage. I use my Grado SR325is with it and it's hugely musical, involving and detailed.

Another advantage, as gregvet says, is that in due course you'll be able to build a good hi-fi system round the MDAC without the MDAC being in any sense a weak link. So whilst £699 might seem like a lot of money to shell out on a headphone amp, you're actually buying the heart of a potentially very capable system.

The MDAC simply plugs into your PC via USB.

 

[BMFDrums]

If you really want a CD player (as opposed to the perfectly reasonable suggestions above re: sticking purely with computer-based tunes with either a sound card upgrade/adjustment or an external USB DAC), I would also suggest the Audiolab 8200CDQ, which is a combined CDP, DAC and pre-amp. I got mine for £800 delivered brand new from a highly reputable (and excellent!) dealer. If/when the time comes for an amp and speakers, you then just need a power amp and speakers.

How long will it be before one of the usual AVI 'protagonists' contributes (perfectly reasonably, of course!)

 

[rubberhedgehog]

Thanks to everyone for the useful help

I have tried to understand what exactly a DAC does and why a thumb drive piece of hardware (for example, the dragonfly) can cost £250! Would something like the Audiolab M-DAC be a big step up from onboard sound from my motherboard.

In the future can it be connected to an amplifier so that I can send it to speakers? The only possible reason I can see doing this would be to play back some old vinyl that my grandparents have from before the WW2. I think for nostalgia I'd be btter off getting them converted to digital and then preserving them in the display boxes that they're currently housed in. Either that, or that will be the perfect time to grab myself an amp and turntable and go to town!

I have a premium spotify account so have access to the higher resolution files. As standard I rip my CDs into a lossless format so that I can archive them and access them easily - who needs to stand up every hour or so to change the CD!

If I get this correctly, the M-DAC plugs into the PC via USB and then could send signals either to an amp or straight to the headphone port on the front. In essence, it is providing the analogue signal to my headphones from the digital source (USB port of the computer).

Do you think it's worth spending £600 on a DAC without trying one as opposed to something less expensive to 'try out the concept' before shelling out?

Thanks again for everything!

 

[gregvet]

You could always try the beresford equivalent below

http://www.beresford.me/products/TC-7530DC.html

I can't promise its as good as the audiolab, but certainly my (older) beresford dac is very good for the price. It doesn't have usb input tho, so you would need to have a pc with ooptical output,

or use an airport express or similar.

I believe it can still be used as a pre amp, if you should require further down the line, and it will drive your headphones well.

it costs £149.99 on their online shop.

 

[gregvet]

IMHO tho you won't look back from the audiolab. It is reported to play way above its pay grade when used with headphones especially, so would more than satisfy you for now, while giving lots of flexibility in the future.

Its not how I prefer to do things, but as the audiolab is available online you could always use distance selling regs to send it back if you bought it online and didnt like it

 

[BMFDrums]

gregvet makes some good points - sound advice in all senses...!

I have both the Audiolab 8200CDQ and the Beresford Bushmaster (BM), but have never compared them directly. They are connected to different systems using different methods, and were bought for the various connections that they have or (in the case of the BM) do not have. The BM does not have a USB input, and is connected via optical cable to a hard-wired Aiport Express then into Audiolab 8000S and 8000P in my kitchen/dining room. The 8200CDQ has USB input (among others) and allows CD playback via 2x Audiolab 8000M (spotting an Audiolab theme here?!). I'm currently investigating the use of a Raspberry Pi to enable HD USB playback to replace the current optical connection.

I don't listen to either system via headphones, so I can't comment on the quality of the built-in headphone amps. Assuming that either of them is as good as the rest of the DAC sections, then I suggest that you won't go far wrong, although it would be fair to suggest that there is a lot more 'stuff' going on in the 8200CDQ, so it may prove to be the better headphone amp, too. I have no firm evidence to support that, though...!

Good luck!

 

[Overdose]

Have you considered an audio interface and a pair of active speakers?

The audio interface would act as a DAC and headphone amp and later, when you add the speakers, would be the preamp.

I've used a couple of these to good effect.

Edit: See THIS link for ideas

 

[rubberhedgehog]

Just had a 'hold the phone' moment for me watching a video on the Cambridge Audio 351A, it says that the amp has a USB type B socket on the back of it to allow for digital playback. That means I can connect a CD player AND my digital music collection (since I'm not sure of the legalities of ripping someone elses CDs to my hard drive just to listen to them through a dedicated DAC like the Audiolabs one) as different inputs!

If someone has experience of this I would really appreciate your input about how the device manages the digital signal. I've got my fingers crossed that this could be the product for me

 

[John Duncan]

I think you need to decide whether you actually want speakers or not, since the advice should be very different if you don't.

 

[rubberhedgehog]

I do not want speakers with this system (at least, not right now. Maybe a few years down the line). To me, my headphones sound better than the speakers that I tried out (even costing 10 times more than the headphones!).

Digital input is important because of the noise picked up when connecting the heaphone jack of my computer to an analogue in on an amp. I'd also assume that the dedicated DAC in a receiver would be superior to my motherboard one (is that a naive assumption?).

 

[Overdose]

I do not want speakers with this system (at least, not right now. Maybe a few years down the line). To me, my headphones sound better than the speakers that I tried out (even costing 10 times more than the headphones!).

Digital input is important because of the noise picked up when connecting the heaphone jack of my computer to an analogue in on an amp. I'd also assume that the dedicated DAC in a receiver would be superior to my motherboard one (is that a naive assumption?).

Then a compact preamp/DAC and headphone amp combo would be ideal. The CA DACmagic Plus is very good and can occasionally be had for less than £300 when deals come around.

 

[John Duncan]

I do not want speakers with this system (at least, not right now. Maybe a few years down the line). To me, my headphones sound better than the speakers that I tried out (even costing 10 times more than the headphones!).

Digital input is important because of the noise picked up when connecting the heaphone jack of my computer to an analogue in on an amp. I'd also assume that the dedicated DAC in a receiver would be superior to my motherboard one (is that a naive assumption?).

In which case I agree with Overdose, a good DAC/headphone amp would be a better bet for now. However, I have noticed in the past that USB does not necessarily isolate a DAC from electrical PC noise (only optical is guaranteed to do that fully), though some computers work noticeably better in this respect than others (iMac and Macbook good, Sony Vaio bad, for example), so it's worth trying things for yourself. Aforementioned Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus, the Firestone range and Fiio E7 would be my first port of call I think. Of course, if you try it with the Audiolab and think it's best, then go crazy, but you don't have to spend that much money to get excellent sound.

 

[ID.]

+1 on the combined DAC/headphone amp to start with. If you decide you want a setup with speakers later on you can continue to use it with your computer as a source feeding an amp and speakers. If the DAC also works as a preamp you could pair it with a power amp in future.

The general consensus is that headphones will easily beat speakers many times their price, and you can get yourself a very high quality headphone rig for the fraction of the cost of a regular hi end setup, but you will lose out on the soundstaging and visceral impact speakers can provide.

Considering how noisy the headphone out of many PCs is, almost anything will be better than your computer's motherboard.

 

[Blackdawn]

I went down the CD6004 route in the end - to use with headphones for the bedroom. I'm happy using CD's. Sounds really good.

 

[BMFDrums]

I do not want speakers with this system (at least, not right now. Maybe a few years down the line). To me, my headphones sound better than the speakers that I tried out (even costing 10 times more than the headphones!).

Digital input is important because of the noise picked up when connecting the heaphone jack of my computer to an analogue in on an amp. I'd also assume that the dedicated DAC in a receiver would be superior to my motherboard one (is that a naive assumption?).

In which case I agree with Overdose, a good DAC/headphone amp would be a better bet for now. However, I have noticed in the past that USB does not necessarily isolate a DAC from electrical PC noise (only optical is guaranteed to do that fully), though some computers work noticeably better in this respect than others (iMac and Macbook good, Sony Vaio bad, for example), so it's worth trying things for yourself. Aforementioned Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus, the Firestone range and Fiio E7 would be my first port of call I think. Of course, if you try it with the Audiolab and think it's best, then go crazy, but you don't have to spend that much money to get excellent sound.

I don't have experience of this myself, but I believe that John (as ever) is right - USB connection will not guarantee removal of computer-based noise, and you don't have to spend £800 (inc CDP and pre-amp) or £600 (M-DAC RRP) to get excellent sound. If you want to (apparently) guarantee removal of counputer-based noise by connecting digitally via Toslink (optical) cable, have a decent DAC with numerous inputs and a good headphone amp with a manual volume control on the front (as opposed to computer-based volume control that can allegedly* impact on sound quality), then the Beresford Bushmaster would fit your requirements. I have one myself, and have been very impressed by the product and the level of service received from Stan Beresford, especially given the price.

I don't have any experience of John's recommendations above, but he strikes me as a very pragmatic guy with fine choice of speakers...!

To quote Forest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

* I don't have any experience of this issue personally, and some query whether the 'dithering' employed by many software controls actually makes an audible difference.

 

[rubberhedgehog]

Got to say thanks again for all of the advice. I hear the idea to get a DAC now which is also capable of outputting to a receiver. This would actually remove any need for a CD player since this route lets you go PC > DAC > Amp > Speakers

At the moment I would go PC > DAC > Headphone

I don't like the idea of having to have to use software to control the signal gain - I want to be able to relax in a chair away from my computer and have an album play through without having to get up to adjust anything midway through! Having a look at the Fiio headphone amps - they appear to be upscaling through USB so could be introducing computer background sound in to the headphones as well.

I think I'm going to go and try out the CA DAC Magic plus and see if it ticks all of the right boxes. If it does I'll be sure to post pictures

 

[ID.]

I've never looked into the specs of various DACs but I'd assume (hope) that the USB connection in any decent DAC would have galvanic isolation and whatnot engineered into to to keep out electrical noise. I know my receiver's USB supposedly does.