Synergy synergy synergy! Help. I need help!...

[jiggyjoe]

I think you have 2 choices.

A. Try some other speakers or

B. Try an Arcam A38, or A38/P38 bi-amp combo in your system to see if the Arcam/MA synergy does return more than the sum of the parts.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks guys - very puzzling. The Leema has stonger bass and dynamics which is great. However, the Arcam seems (the word "seems" is important) to have more treble and sonic stability, even with the Arcam's tone controls set at half. Clearly Arcam/MA are a cracking combo, but can't believe that a £390.00 amp can match a £1200, unless, of course, we've all underestimated the entry-level, warm sounding Arcam that most people seem to write off, including professional reviewers.

Over a 30 year period I've never before now had any problems with deciphering what's good and what's bad.

I've auditioned the Leema twice before buying and the second time I heard the Caspian M1 alongside, which was equally as good. However, I DID NOT (I'm so irretrievably stupid) take in the Arcam, assuming that a like-for-like comparison would do the trick.

At the moment I am as mixed up as a mixed up person could be... (nurse, where's my medication!)

BTW, the house looks like WWIII has broken out and there's still another day of filth (the house, not the Leema and Arcam

)

 

[Big Chris]

plastic penguin:Gerrardasnails:plastic penguin:

maxflinn:you've ruled out the dm 2/7s pp? did you get to hear a pair?

It breaks my heart to say I've knocked Dyns on the head. More truthfully, I need a speaker that is as flexible as possible in terms of positioning, hence ATC and Spendor (the latter probably SA-1). To make the Leema really sing I'll probably need the Focus or Contour, but they don't offer that variety. Shame, I'm limited by room topology, otherwise the Dyns would be a part of the short-list.

I have to say that I wasn't that impressed by the ATC 11s. If I were buying standmounts, I would definitely listen to the SA1s - they look lovely and after a few weeks with my Viennas, I would listen to the Haydn's.

The only snag about Viennas is there are very few outlets. I think the nearest is up in the Midlands which makes it, for me anyway, a little tricky in terms of shipping and possibly returns if they don't sound the biz.

I've decided floorstanders are a little too overpowering for our living room, so standmounters + a compact sub is the sensible solution.

I heard some V.A speakers at 'Kimberley Audio & Visual' in Addiscombe PP.

Can't remember what model, but they were standmounts, had the tweeter mounted on a bridge over the port and were £1000 IIRC.

 

[Craig M.]

my own opinion of your rs6 is very low (sorry, really don't like them), i would say they are really holding the amp back.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Craig M.:my own opinion of your rs6 is very low (sorry, really don't like them), i would say they are really holding the amp back.

That's HiFi! I loved my Rs6s but now realise how goothe next level of speaker sounds.

PP says that he liked the Leema as much as the Caspian 1. I demo'd my speakers with the new Caspian cd and amp combo and didn't like them. My Moon amp and lossless files through DacMagic is far better.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Craig M.:my own opinion of your rs6 is very low (sorry, really don't like them), i would say they are really holding the amp back.

That's HiFi! I loved my Rs6s but now realise how goothe next level of speaker sounds.

PP says that he liked the Leema as much as the Caspian 1. I demo'd my speakers with the new Caspian cd and amp combo and didn't like them. My Moon amp and lossless files through DacMagic is far better.

 

[plastic penguin]

Craig M.:my own opinion of your rs6 is very low (sorry, really don't like them), i would say they are really holding the amp back.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, grant you that. However, this has gone way beyond opinion stage - if anyone has an ear on each side of the head, will recognise something is afoot. If it lacked bass compare to the Arcam that's kinda understandable. But lacking in treble? when all the so-called experts have said the Leema is "bright". The Arcam just seems more jingly in the top end. The only possibilities I've come up with is: A) The speakers, CDP, tuner and DVD isn't talented enough to really make the Leema shine. Or B) My hearing has gone wayward. Or C) maybe synergy is everything. Or D) the room is stifling the extra bottom end oomph and dynamics of the Pulse.

As you all know I love Arcam, but I do not believe for one moment the entry-level Arc is goin' toe-to-toe with a £1200 amp.

 

[John Duncan]

Big Chris:Can't remember what model, but they were standmounts, had the tweeter mounted on a bridge over the port and were £1000 IIRC

The Haydn Grand probably (rar...)

 

[the record spot]

One thing to bear in mind is you're using a £1300 amp with a £300 CDP and £600 speakers. If nothing else, the imbalance is likely to be round the source than the amp. I'm sure the Arcam A65+ does sound good, the whole synergy thing again, but the dealer who said a significant spend was in order might not be too far off the mark.

How would I improve on my sound? A better source? Better speakers? Better amp? To best each of my items, I think I'm into four figure territory, per item. That's a hefty pill to swallow. Luckily, I'm happy with what I hear.

 

[Big Chris]

JohnDuncan:Big Chris:Can't remember what model, but they were standmounts, had the tweeter mounted on a bridge over the port and were £1000 IIRC The Haydn Grand probably (rar...)

That's it.

 

[bluebrazil]

would it be too rude to put the eb2's into the mix as they are basically unavailable for demo? on another note could you not borrrow/home demo another source item with a little more perceived sparkle like a cyrus or naim cdp or similar.

 

[Anonymous]

It might be that the Leema is making the treble distort less, making it less gritty and obvious. I agree with Craig, the speakers are holding the amp back. Can you borrow some speakers and try both amps with them to see where things stand?

If the Leema is making the system sound less coloured than the Arcam then you may need to accustom yourself to a flatter response with less distortion. As I've heard it said before, it's quite hard to train your ears to a new sound but the rewards may be there.

 

[Anonymous]

Yup, you need to try both with better speakers. Try some around the £2000 mark and you'll soon sort things out.

That said, I have a sneaking suspicion my old Creek 4140 (I think) may not be too far away from my new Nait 5i in sound. To solve that problem I'm simply not going to compare them.

 

[plastic penguin]

I will attempt to creep around one of my usual retailers to try some speakers at home, probably somthing in the range of PMC DB1 or ProAc and see where it takes me.

 

[matthewpiano]

PP, this is a very difficult situation for you to be in and I feel your exasperation!

A few thoughts (fairly random) from me:

1. You had the Arcam/MA set-up for quite some time and it seems you always loved it. Changing from something that you have had so much pleasure from can often be tough and it can take some time to adjust.

2. From what I read about it, the Leema takes quite a different approach to Arcam gear. Maybe you just prefer the Arcam presentation??

3. Synergy is king. When I first bought my A18 I wasn't totally convinced. Using it with the B&W 686s I could hear lots of really great things but it just wasn't quite right. Trying some KEF iQ10s gave me a different angle on things - improving some aspects but moving backwards on others - and then changing to the Dalis suddenly gave me the sound I was looking for. Changing the CD player to Arcam finished things off and I'm really just enjoying my music now. The moral is that I could easily have turned my back on the A18, but if I had I would have missed out on a wonderful sounding system. Maybe you just need to find the right source and speakers to partner with the Leema and when you do things might just click into place and make the whole upgrade feel worthwhile.

4. Pursue the option that gives you the most pleasure. I know from hard experience that when hi-fi leaves you sitting there thinking about the equipment rather than the music, it all gets terribly frustrating and the enjoyment disappears. If, in the end, you simply prefer the Arcam/MA combination the respective prices shouldn't come into it. You are much better off enjoying the music on a cheaper amp, than struggling to relax listening to a more expensive one.

 

[crusaderlord]

As you enjoyed your orginal Arcam / MA combination so much it is maybe surprising your didnt first try going higher up the Arcam range to say an FMJ before branching into another manufacturer.

It could be that for your ears / taste the Arcams do the business for you - i still think each of the more recognised manufacturers simply have their own particular take on presentation, none of which are in the end vastly superior but more a different slant or taste. Find one you like and stick with it 🙂

 

[plastic penguin]

(Sorry for not answering to individuals) You all make very valid points, and yes, I've had years of pleasure from Arcam/Wharfedale and latterly Arcam/MAs. The only reason for changing wasn't because I was bored or fed-up with Arcam, just looked for a change.

Igglebert's points, another poster I respect, is slightly confusing about Arcams treble isn't as controlled as the Leemas (paraphrasing). One of Arcams virtues is there smooth mid-range and crisp treble. I like to believe (more out of hope) the Leema will really open up once that balance has been struck. TBH, I did actually mention that the Caspian was easier to system match but prepared, due to features, to go the slightly more difficult route - hope it doesn't come back and bite me butt...

I'm off for a quick pint. On this occasion, it's deserved (no connection with hi-fis)

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:PP, this is a very difficult situation for you to be in and I feel your exasperation!

A few thoughts (fairly random) from me:

1. You had the Arcam/MA set-up for quite some time and it seems you always loved it. Changing from something that you have had so much pleasure from can often be tough and it can take some time to adjust.

2. From what I read about it, the Leema takes quite a different approach to Arcam gear. Maybe you just prefer the Arcam presentation??

3. Synergy is king. When I first bought my A18 I wasn't totally convinced. Using it with the B&W 686s I could hear lots of really great things but it just wasn't quite right. Trying some KEF iQ10s gave me a different angle on things - improving some aspects but moving backwards on others - and then changing to the Dalis suddenly gave me the sound I was looking for. Changing the CD player to Arcam finished things off and I'm really just enjoying my music now. The moral is that I could easily have turned my back on the A18, but if I had I would have missed out on a wonderful sounding system. Maybe you just need to find the right source and speakers to partner with the Leema and when you do things might just click into place and make the whole upgrade feel worthwhile.

4. Pursue the option that gives you the most pleasure. I know from hard experience that when hi-fi leaves you sitting there thinking about the equipment rather than the music, it all gets terribly frustrating and the enjoyment disappears. If, in the end, you simply prefer the Arcam/MA combination the respective prices shouldn't come into it. You are much better off enjoying the music on a cheaper amp, than struggling to relax listening to a more expensive one.

good post

 

[Anonymous]

PP, just throwing ideas around. Seeing as this hobby isn't about us applying science, just try some different speakers and see where things go. The Leema ought to be pretty able to drive a lot of speakers on the market so you shouldn't run into any nasties. Find a transducer that you like and buy it

 

[Anonymous]

Personally I don't understand what others hear in the Leema equipment. Every time I have heard it the sound has been cold, devoid of emotion and in one particular case ( Bristol S and V) a harsh metallic sound that grated mine and my friends ears. On that one particular occasion out of all the systems we listened to the Leema kit was by far the least enjoyable, and that included the budget stuff. Ok I could have just been really unlucky each time so I will continue to listen to Leema to see if my mind is changed. Mr PP there is a possibility that you have found an amp or brand that just doesn't do it for you.
If you do manage to match some speakers to it that blow you away please let me know because I would be very interested to hear it.

 

[crusaderlord]

All of us who treat hifi as a hobby probably do this kind of thing - with me its turntable related - bought a very cheap Rega Planar 2 to get back into vinyl 3 years ago then sold it as it never really delivered, bought a P3-24 last year and sold again - now tempted by a Clearaudio.

All part of the fun really but sometimes you try things that just dont quite work out despite being good in themselves they just dont totally suit what you are really looking for.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

igglebert:It might be that the Leema is making the treble distort less, making it less gritty and obvious. I agree with Craig, the speakers are holding the amp back. Can you borrow some speakers and try both amps with them to see where things stand?

If the Leema is making the system sound less coloured than the Arcam then you may need to accustom yourself to a flatter response with less distortion. As I've heard it said before, it's quite hard to train your ears to a new sound but the rewards may be there.

I have to disagree. The RS6 speakers are capable of singing with good electronics. My amp is arguably as least as good as PP's Leema and it sounded great with my RS6s. Don't get me wrong, my new better speakers get more out of my amp but I'm surprised that the Leema and RS6 is not sounding as good as PP's original combo. I've listened to PP's cd player with my old amp and RS6s and believe that this could be the reason for the Leema not getting the best out of the speakers.

 

[Craig M.]

i wasn't just having a pop at the rs6, the way i originally read pp's post was that he didn't think the leema was any better than the arcam, which, for the money, you would really hope wasn't the case.

it is a strange one, as pp has said, from reviews you would expect the leema to sound brighter, and yet he has the opposite problem. the only thing i can think of, is basically what iggle said, maybe it's much cleaner treble which doesn't sound as prominent.

have you any other speakers you can do the comparison with? has the leema always sounded like that?

 

[plastic penguin]

Craig M.:

i wasn't just having a pop at the rs6, the way i originally read pp's post was that he didn't think the leema was any better than the arcam, which, for the money, you would really hope wasn't the case.

it is a strange one, as pp has said, from reviews you would expect the leema to sound brighter, and yet he has the opposite problem. the only thing i can think of, is basically what iggle said, maybe it's much cleaner treble which doesn't sound as prominent.

have you any other speakers you can do the comparison with? has the leema always sounded like that?

Understand where you're coming from, likewise, as Gerrard says, the 73T doesn't stack up compared to his DacMagic etc. When I heard it I was surprised how different streaming is compared to traditional, budget, CDPs. This is why I'm looking at, some point down the line, lobbing my 73 to a more modern method.

Nevertheless, compared to other price compatible CDPs, even really good modern ones, it fairs very well.

But the fact remains, regardless of whether I'm spending £2K or £50, I need to find something that sings with the Leema. At present it doesn't totally satisfy.

 

[the record spot]

Try a good Marantz CDP. I couldn't agree any less with dumping the speakers for some PMC boxes (or whatever) and keeping a £300 source running. Hang on to the MAs for now and try a different source. The SA7001-KI works well with the Pulse and might be a good combo with your RS6 speakers. Some speakers can punch well above their weight - much as my 752s do with the Sansui amp (remember, it stacks up comfortably against the Pulse, the Exposure 3010s and the Harman HK990 when I demoed these last year) - no reason why the RS6s can't do the same.