running in loudspeakers: some little questions

[DaanS]

So as I'm running in my new loudspeakers I noticed that really high tones, such as those produced by cymbals, appear kinda shrill/distorted. It feel like one of the tweeters is resonating along uncontrolled more than playing along. I went on to investigate, hooked up the speakers to eachothers channels and just one speaker to the one and than the other channel. The apparent distortion seems to be gone when using just one speaker, regardless of the channel, but I couldn't help but notice the one speaker that has been the speaker on the right throughout the runin period (30 hours in by now) is a bit louder and (as such?) seems a bit more accomplished.

So I was wondering about two things:
- is it possible, or even normal, that one speaker takes longer to get into it's own than the other, explaining what I'm hearing?
and
- is it possible that the positioning of the speakers makes it so that they interfere with one another, resulting in a distorted sound?

As an overarching question, is this something to worry about? During my tests I used the songs "The bringer" and "Kingdom of madness" by Magnum, on vinyl.

 

[bigfish786]

An annoying amount of time to run in.

but you also need to give yourself time to get used to them, and probably most importantly, find where they work best in your room.

Persist with them, you will get there eventually.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Wouldn't worry to much it's just variations in the material eg rubber, wood, metal and glue which fall with the torenances of manufacture eg slightly thicker rubber, so might take just a touch longer to brake in.

Other things that influenace speakers quite alot is tempture. So slightly warmer that side of the room!?. Personally i would have let my speakers warm up in the room 24-30 hours before even running a signal but thats just me and old habbits. (not say you haven't done that though)

But it will just be the rubber on the cones flexing at different rates is all.

Hope that helps a little sit back and enjoy (just maybe in another 30hours LOL)

So as I'm running in my new loudspeakers I noticed that really high tones, such as those produced by cymbals, appear kinda shrill/distorted. It feel like one of the tweeters is resonating along uncontrolled more than playing along. I went on to investigate, hooked up the speakers to eachothers channels and just one speaker to the one and than the other channel. The apparent distortion seems to be gone when using just one speaker, regardless of the channel, but I couldn't help but notice the one speaker that has been the speaker on the right throughout the runin period (30 hours in by now) is a bit louder and (as such?) seems a bit more accomplished.

So I was wondering about two things:- is it possible, or even normal, that one speaker takes longer to get into it's own than the other, explaining what I'm hearing?and- is it possible that the positioning of the speakers makes it so that they interfere with one another, resulting in a distorted sound?

As an overarching question, is this something to worry about? During my tests I used the songs "The bringer" and "Kingdom of madness" by Magnum, on vinyl.

 

[andyjm]

So as I'm running in my new loudspeakers I noticed that really high tones, such as those produced by cymbals, appear kinda shrill/distorted. It feel like one of the tweeters is resonating along uncontrolled more than playing along. I went on to investigate, hooked up the speakers to eachothers channels and just one speaker to the one and than the other channel. The apparent distortion seems to be gone when using just one speaker, regardless of the channel, but I couldn't help but notice the one speaker that has been the speaker on the right throughout the runin period (30 hours in by now) is a bit louder and (as such?) seems a bit more accomplished.

So I was wondering about two things:- is it possible, or even normal, that one speaker takes longer to get into it's own than the other, explaining what I'm hearing?and- is it possible that the positioning of the speakers makes it so that they interfere with one another, resulting in a distorted sound?

As an overarching question, is this something to worry about? During my tests I used the songs "The bringer" and "Kingdom of madness" by Magnum, on vinyl.

'Running in' refers to the wearing together of mating surfaces in a mechanical system. The small changes in shape and surface finish that result as the surfaces wear against each other improves the life and performance of the system.

Loudspeakers are mechanical, but don't have mating surfaces. Nothing rubs against anything else. Loudspeakers do have suspension - a 'spider' at the centre to keep the voicecoil centered and a 'surround' at the edge of the cone to stop it flapping around and keep it straight. The spider is often thin metal and the surround some form of elastomer. For a speaker to change in performance through usage, the mechanical properties of the spider and/or the surround need to change as the speaker is used.

Unlike a lot of HiFi folklaw, 'running in' a speaker is at least possible, but I am skeptical that if there are changes that they would be significant enough to be audible. Does anyone have a link to a real study that shows the perfomance of speaker changing with time?

As for the OP, get someone else to swap the speakers around and see if you can still tell them apart.

 

[Sy23]

[/quote]

'Running in' refers to the wearing together of mating surfaces in a mechanical system. The small changes in shape and surface finish that result as the surfaces wear against each other improves the life and performance of the system.

Loudspeakers are mechanical, but don't have mating surfaces. Nothing rubs against anything else. Loudspeakers do have suspension - a 'spider' at the centre to keep the voicecoil centered and a 'surround' at the edge of the cone to stop it flapping around and keep it straight. The spider is often thin metal and the surround some form of elastomer. For a speaker to change in performance through usage, the mechanical properties of the spider and/or the surround need to change as the speaker is used.

Unlike a lot of HiFi folklaw, 'running in' a speaker is at least possible, but I am skeptical that if there are changes that they would be significant enough to be audible. Does anyone have a link to a real study that shows the perfomance of speaker changing with time?

As for the OP, get someone else to swap the speakers around and see if you can still tell them apart.

[/quote]

I think the term "running in" was coined because of the analogy with cars, which ARE mechanical in the way you state, and refers to the idea of driving them gently for a short time, so that the engine components can bed in and generally settle, thus increasing the future life of the engine. While speakers can't technically be "run in" in this way, it's a pretty good metaphor for the idea that as the various parts loosen up and settle, the sound may well become warmer and more coherent. Certainly I have always found that there is a noticeable improvement in the sound of new speakers after a week or so of constant use... though of course, who can say how much of this is a manifestation of psycho-acoustics?!

Just to be on the safe side, I suggest no-one exceed 50kph when driving home from the dealer with their new sets of speaker cable.

 

[chebby]

Play them loud for 15 minutes if you must. Job done. (If they were tested in the factory you won't even need that.)

If they are straight out of the delivery truck, on a cold day, then allow a few hours for all the materials to get up to room temperature first.

If your dealer gives you any so-called "running-in" estimate that is longer than their returns period then they are charlatans and you need to be wary of being tricked out the right to return them.

 

[Anderson]

For reference I'm running 3 ways speakers, they sound no different no to how they did when I bought them months ago. The sounded awesome new and they sound awesome now.

I have seen a study on speakers performance difference between run in and not, well it was a test of individual drivers and not a complete speakers system. What that test found was that any running in was done in the first minute or two of use. The measured differences were not decernable to the human ear. Also as the above poster has mentioned if the drivers undergo any QC by the OEM they will have been run in, the speaker company that subsequently buys the drivers to incorporate the cones into a complete system will have tested the speaker as a whole which makes the speaker run in a mute issue.

Someone else mentioned speaker placement, this is real and something you should experiment with.

 

[rainsoothe]

Someone else mentioned speaker placement, this is real and something you should experiment with.

this - at least for the harshness bit. Also, if everything is thoughtfully positioned and the right speaker still sounds louder, then it's an amp ballance issue (which is not necessarily abnormal). What was your amp+speaker matching?

 

[margetti]

A few things to consider...

- Running-in is a non issue - as said above your speakers are more than "run-in", if such a thing even exists

- As it's vinyl you're listening to, are you happy your tracking is ok? Do you have any other sources - if so do you get the same issue?

- Speaker positioning/room acoustics could very much be the issue. How is the room laid out regards right/left? Is there a window on one side that is reflecting the sound? Or a bookcase on one side that is absorbing sound? Try different speaker positions, even going so far as to trying different degrees of toe-in for each speaker. This would be my starting point as it can make a huge difference and will not cost you a penny to try.

 

[DaanS]

So there's a couple of things I changed, with good results. I connected each speaker to the other channel, which allready gave a different soundstage, further supporting the experience both speaker don't perform quite equally (which was also clear from testing each speaker seperate from the other on each channel, and comparing the "results", ie memory). One speaker is much closer to the outer wall and the wooden door, so it's subject to some cold drafts whereas the other isn't (that's the position with the better performing speaker btw). I also reased the speakers a bit (the centre is now 70 cm above ground, which I feel is still too low but that's the way it is till I now which stands I want).
I also printed a protractor to check the alignment of my turntable's cartridge. I have an Audio Technica clone of the Technics SL1200, with a 215mm arm mounting distance, so I used the Technics Baerwald arc protractor sheet at vinylengine. According to that sheet (double checked to see if it didn't scale) my cartridge wasn't aligned correctly at the factory. The needle followed the arc perfectly but did align properly. I was able to fix that (scary stuff) and now all is well.
I also played a bit with the tone control on my amplifier. My room is far from neutral, lots of absoribtion, so I increased 3.2kHz by 3 and 12.8kHz by 6db.
And of course I got a lot more playing time in.

Each step in itself lead to some noticable differences and the net result is much fresher and more precise presentation, that dominates the room with much less effort. Perhaps I will play around with the positioning some more, but because I live a small studio, there really is only one place where they can go. Still it will be interesting to see the impact and I might have to do some redecorating.

Finally I also think it's getting used to certain sounds. The changes to my setup thus far allready give me a much richer sound than what I was used to, many nuances got muffled or lost before, so some kinda jump at me now that their presence becomes apparent.

I love how everything sounds now and time will tell how things turn out. Thanks for the heads up and suggestions everyone.

 

[Anderson]

Congrats

 

[Superaintit]

So as I'm running in my new loudspeakers I noticed that really high tones, such as those produced by cymbals, appear kinda shrill/distorted. It feel like one of the tweeters is resonating along uncontrolled more than playing along. I went on to investigate, hooked up the speakers to eachothers channels and just one speaker to the one and than the other channel. The apparent distortion seems to be gone when using just one speaker, regardless of the channel, but I couldn't help but notice the one speaker that has been the speaker on the right throughout the runin period (30 hours in by now) is a bit louder and (as such?) seems a bit more accomplished.

So I was wondering about two things:- is it possible, or even normal, that one speaker takes longer to get into it's own than the other, explaining what I'm hearing?and- is it possible that the positioning of the speakers makes it so that they interfere with one another, resulting in a distorted sound?

As an overarching question, is this something to worry about? During my tests I used the songs "The bringer" and "Kingdom of madness" by Magnum, on vinyl.

'Running in' refers to the wearing together of mating surfaces in a mechanical system. The small changes in shape and surface finish that result as the surfaces wear against each other improves the life and performance of the system.

Loudspeakers are mechanical, but don't have mating surfaces. Nothing rubs against anything else. Loudspeakers do have suspension - a 'spider' at the centre to keep the voicecoil centered and a 'surround' at the edge of the cone to stop it flapping around and keep it straight. The spider is often thin metal and the surround some form of elastomer. For a speaker to change in performance through usage, the mechanical properties of the spider and/or the surround need to change as the speaker is used.

Unlike a lot of HiFi folklaw, 'running in' a speaker is at least possible, but I am skeptical that if there are changes that they would be significant enough to be audible. Does anyone have a link to a real study that shows the perfomance of speaker changing with time?

As for the OP, get someone else to swap the speakers around and see if you can still tell them apart.

http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2015/04/29/speakers-and-sneakers/

 

[andyjm]

Thanks for this. Unfortunately its all subjective tosh, 'it sounded better the following day...' doesn't cut it with me I am afraid. A before and after measurement or two would have been nice.

For those who remember their 0 level physics and Hooke's law, there really isn't a mechanism for a metal spring (the 'spider') to free up with use if the spider is kept within its elastic limit (which it is). I haven't had to change the valve springs in my car because they have 'freed up with usage'.

The only thing that might make a difference is the elastomer used for the surround. Synthetic rubbers are funny things, and their physical properties do change with usage and also with time. As I mentioned in a post above, I am skeptical that this (the surround getting slightly more floppy) could make an audible difference, but at least it is a mechanism that makes some sense unlike most of the nonsense talked about with HiFi.

 

[BigH]

Sounds like the problem is probably with your turntable/stylus set up rather than the speakers. Imbalance with volume can be the amp. esp. at low volumes, many amps are not exactly the same each channel. But I would check your stylus set up first. I don't believe speakers need long to run-in maybe a few hours, I think most of the differences you may hear are down to the person.

 

[DaanS]

Sounds like the problem is probably with your turntable/stylus set up rather than the speakers.

I think that's part of it yes. When I checked the alignment it was off by a an entire mm over the length of the cartridge and correcting that seems to have done a lot. The voice of Beth in Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds was a tad lispy and that is gone now. Vocals seem clearer overall now that I got the alignement right.

Another thing is positioning. I moved the speakers a bit into the room and that seems to have done a lot. They stand in front of my bookshelves, so there's alot of dampening behind the speakers. Presentation is clearer than it was yesterday, goosebumbs just like when I was auditioning these speakers. Their clarity is one of things I really took to and I didn't quite have that reaction yet listening to them at home. So yeh, I'm glad.

The old amp struggles a bit to drive them with the same conviction at lower volumes, so the amp needs to be replaced sooner rather than later. The problem I'm faced with now is that my room is far from neutral, so I think I need some tonecontrol on a new amp, but modern don't really deliver there. One of the amps I really took to is the Arcam A19, which doesn't have any tone control. I'm thinking of going with a cheaper amp for my studio, and reconsider that setup ones I move to a bigger place a couple of years from now where I won't be as cramped. The Rotel A10 is still in the picture, because it's dominance over mid and high tones would complement my warm room well ... or at least I think it will. I really liked the clarity of it's bigger brother the RCX1500. I'd rather have a seperate cd-player though.

 

[DaanS]

Sounds like the problem is probably with your turntable/stylus set up rather than the speakers.

I think that's part of it yes. When I checked the alignment it was off by a an entire mm over the length of the cartridge (the tilt was off by a mm, not the arms length) and correcting that seems to have done a lot. The voice of Beth in Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds for instance was a tad lispy and that is gone now. Vocals seem clearer overall now that I got the alignement right.

Another thing is positioning. I moved the speakers a bit into the room and that seems to have done a lot. They stand in front of my bookshelves, so there's alot of dampening behind the speakers. Presentation is clearer than it was yesterday, goosebumbs just like when I was auditioning these speakers. Their clarity is one of things I really took to and I didn't quite have that reaction yet listening to them at home. So yeh, I'm glad.

The old amp struggles a bit to drive them with the same conviction at lower volumes, so the amp needs to be replaced sooner rather than later. The problem I'm faced with now is that my room is far from neutral, so I think I need some tonecontrol on a new amp, but modern don't really deliver there. One of the amps I really took to is the Arcam A19, which doesn't have any tone control. I'm thinking of going with a cheaper amp for my studio, and reconsider that setup ones I move to a bigger place a couple of years from now where I won't be as cramped. The Rotel A10 is still in the picture, because it's dominance over mid and high tones would complement my warm room well ... or at least I think it will. I really liked the clarity of it's bigger brother the RCX1500. I'd rather have a seperate cd-player though.

 

[DaanS]

Ok now I can't edit my post, that's weird. Sorry for the weird double post, perhaps someone can remove that?

What I wanted to add was that it was the tilt of the cartridge was off by a mm, not the arms length.