Shall I Upgrade?

[WayneKerr]

Sometimes gambles work and at least you've tried a couple of other amps. I've never auditioned a single piece of kit I've ever owned, but it's always sounded good to my ears I think the PM12 will sound different to your current PM50 but don't give up as I'm sure once you get used to it it will repay you in spades. My amp confused me big time until I got my head around what I was hearing.

Nice videoIt also gives us a chance to look at your room and speaker placement and there a some factors which immediately look wrong. Appreciate, like all of us, you need a functioning room but those speakers stuck in the corners are doing them no favours whatsoever. This will also be a very 'bright' room with hard flooring. If you get issues with the new amp I would suggest looking at speaker placement and at least a rug on the floor.

Please come back with your initial thoughts when the new amp is hooked up and I'm sure we can assist with any issues you may encounter. Well done though, top marks, sir

Also be prepared for the extra weight, this amp weighs nearly twice that of your existing PM50

 

[WayneKerr]

I’m not sure about the Signature prefix, but this is the PM-12SE…

Marantz SA-12SE/PM-12SE SACD Player/Amplifier

This SE version of Marantz's former 'Japan only' SA-12/PM-12 player/amp combo borrows very heavily indeed from the costlier KI Ruby series, but saves £1000 into the bargain So what do we have here? The new SA-12SE SACD/CD player and PM-12SE integrated amplifier, selling for £2999 apiece, are the...

www.hifinews.com

Unless I'm wrong I think the signature versions sported the KI tag. SE has generally meant Special Edition. Now KI has departed I wonder what tag they'll use, or maybe they'll just drop signature models completely? After all they were only supposedly breathed-on minor revisions anyway.

 

[JDL]

I’m not sure about the Signature prefix, but this is the PM-12SE…

Marantz SA-12SE/PM-12SE SACD Player/Amplifier

This SE version of Marantz's former 'Japan only' SA-12/PM-12 player/amp combo borrows very heavily indeed from the costlier KI Ruby series, but saves £1000 into the bargain So what do we have here? The new SA-12SE SACD/CD player and PM-12SE integrated amplifier, selling for £2999 apiece, are the...

www.hifinews.com

I’m not sure about the Signature prefix, but this is the PM-12SE…

Marantz SA-12SE/PM-12SE SACD Player/Amplifier

This SE version of Marantz's former 'Japan only' SA-12/PM-12 player/amp combo borrows very heavily indeed from the costlier KI Ruby series, but saves £1000 into the bargain So what do we have here? The new SA-12SE SACD/CD player and PM-12SE integrated amplifier, selling for £2999 apiece, are the...

www.hifinews.com

I've found reviews by Googling it. SE stands for Special Edition. I think this is the only version available in Britain.
I'm positive What Hi-Fi have reviewed it and I found a few things to read about it when I searched.
What I hadn't realised and I'm not sure What Hi-Fi mentioned it, is that the power section on the PM 10 and 12 is Class D until Doug told me.
Class D appears to have been around for longer than I realised.
I just read a few bits and pieces. A scientific type comparison between the final Marantz flagship Class AB and a PM10 and a comment from an owner of both of these amps. In both cases, the scientific test and an owners opinion the PM10 (Class D power section) came out significantly on top!

 

[Gray]

Hi Guys, just an update, I went to demo an amp yesterday, a Roxan Anthessa.....

The shop didn't have the MA Silver 500s, but had what they said were similar priced (a little more at 3k) Linn? Floorstanders.

They left me in the sound room to my own, and I listened to various tunes that I'm used ti listening to on my system, but I was shocked at how bad it was? I'm no expert in sound/Hifi therefore may not use the correct terms to explain, but I know what I like and it wasn't that.

To me there was no separation, there was no sparkle, and the bass and mids sounded fuzzy and dull, everything was too soft, and there was no richness or warmth.

I then noticed they had an Arcam on the rack and asked what one that was, they said the 20? I had a 30 on my list to demo, and thought would have a listen to that whilst I was there.

I much preferred the Arcam over the Antessa but even though the Arcam sounded better, I still wouldn't trade what I've got for that, to me it sounded like a definite step back.....

Anyway below is a video that I uploaded tonight (but don't know if you will be able to view) just taken with the mic on my phone therefore not the best of recordings. (Volume know on amp only set low at 7 oclock)

I've therefore taken a bit of a gamble.....I've decided to go ahead and have ordered the Marantz PM12SE.........and a WIIM PRO PLUS streamer to connect into my Pioneer N50 to give me WiFi streaming instead of having to hook up my laptop every time I want to listen to my music!!

View: https://youtu.be/mJH0JGgxA80?si=NsvSbOI1YJi8DkRV

I guarantee you Scuba, that when you had your shop demo, the listening room looked nothing like yours and the speakers were most certainly not in the corners.
However, I think you said you didn't like the shop sound - so maybe you like what you've got
I'm going to be honest with you (because, why not?) please don't take offence.
If I wanted to ruin the sound I've got now.....I'd have a room like yours.

I've got through plenty of amps, speakers and sources over several decades.
The most beneficial change I ever made was to kill excess reverberation. Before that I really did waste some money on changes - never hearing any of it at its best.

Wayne's suggestions of speaker repositioning and a rug are good ones.
Again, just a personal thing but those bare wooden floors make me cringe - nothing less than a wall-to-wall carpet for me in a room where serious listening is going to take place.
You want to be hearing your music....not the effects of the room

With reverb tamed, sound becomes focused and much of the effort of listening disappears - you really don't realise how tiring it was - until the reverb is minimised.

 

[JDL]

Absolutely Gray, you're right. The last thing you want if you're after a good sound from your audio set up, is bare wooden floors, bare walls, etc. Minimalism and Hi-Fidelity isn't an easy match.

 

[record_spot]

I think you need to be really clear on the sound you like and want from your stereo. You're going to be living with it for a long time, so it's important to get it right and, adding in the cost of gear these days, not be stuck with, effectively, an expensive electrical paperweight.

My own system is a mix and match affair ranging from present-day gear to over 35 years old. The CD player is the elderly statesman (Kenwood DP990-SG). I use this both on its own and with my Cambridge DACMagic 200M. Both sounds are terrific to my ears. My speakers and Cambridge 752BD universal player are both around a decade old, while the newest additions are the Cambridge Alva ST turntable and a 1997 Musical Fidelity X-LP phono stage. I also have a Schitt Mani phono pre that I won in a competition recently. I think the X-LP edges it however,

So, your Marantz amp being 30 years old isn't really a deal breaker if it's working well. It may be worth having it looked at to check if any internal parts needs replacing and a good qualified tech will do this for you.

Personally, I'd keep the Marantz, especially if you like it (they were damn good amps the old PM series - the PM80's a monster!) and add on a streamer. Wiim, Arylic and a bunch of others all have good options for decent money.

 

[ScubaCollie]

Hi All, thank you for all your replies, I have read them all and have taken in all you have said, however unable to quote each of your comments as would fill this page up really quickly! 😀

I will definitely let you know how it sounds once I receive it, apparently its due to be delivered on Monday.

I understand what you've said re the flooring, however my wifey wouldn't take kindly to me carpeting the floor, walls, and ceilings so that I can get better sound lol!

We have two dogs, and this room where my sound system is fitted is the back room where I spend most of my time with my dogs, therefore needs to be as cleanable as possible.

It isn't feasible to install it in any of the other rooms.

May be that video I posted didn't do it justice, but it sounds really great and isn't tiring to listen to, I've been listening all evening from around 7pm tonight and it's now gone midnight, currently listening to Classical.

My Wiim Pro Plus Streamer was delivered tonight and it's now all set up and working great therefore no more laptop to worry about setting up before I can listen to my music!!

Another quick question as well.....

I originally set the Wiim up for analogue output letting the new dap inside that do the conversion straight into my PM50 and it sounded a little too bright for my liking, I've therefore got it outputting spdif straight into my Pioneer N50 and letting that now do the conversion and it sounds nice again.

However, that N50 is from 2012, have DACS changed much in that time? Should I upgrade that as well? Not sure if to replace it with the Eversolo Z8 DAC?

Would that be an upgrade? The Pioneer back in the day got fab reviews and was about the same price as the Z8 is now.....therefore is the Pioneer a better DAC?

Also re my upgrades, I needed the Wiimpro to enable my streaming without having to mess about with a laptop every time I want to listen to my music, and whilst writing this I'm enjoying my music and able to change tracks and alter the volume without having to get up!!

The PM50 I am also happy with, however the main reason for upgrading this is because it's only 70wpc (I know I shouldn't worry about watts!!) And the PM12SE is speeded at 100wpc but it's been reviewed and tested and is putting out 185wpc!! I think my MA Silver 500's that I upgraded to last gear deserve the new amp.

Also the new PM12SE is definitely the SE (Special Edition) and not the Signature (was my typo and I did realise it was only the Special Edition).

I've read a review and apparently it has the same power transformers as the KI Ruby and shares other similarities, apart from not having the signature, the stone, and the copper chassis on the rear, its apparently a Ruby......that doesn't bother me if it is or isn't, just so long as it has the required power to drive my speakers without causing any damage and it sounds nice as existing then I will be happy 😊 👍

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi Guys, just an update, I went to demo an amp yesterday, a Roxan Anthessa.....

The shop didn't have the MA Silver 500s, but had what they said were similar priced (a little more at 3k) Linn? Floorstanders.

They left me in the sound room to my own, and I listened to various tunes that I'm used ti listening to on my system, but I was shocked at how bad it was? I'm no expert in sound/Hifi therefore may not use the correct terms to explain, but I know what I like and it wasn't that.

To me there was no separation, there was no sparkle, and the bass and mids sounded fuzzy and dull, everything was too soft, and there was no richness or warmth.

I then noticed they had an Arcam on the rack and asked what one that was, they said the 20? I had a 30 on my list to demo, and thought would have a listen to that whilst I was there.

I much preferred the Arcam over the Antessa but even though the Arcam sounded better, I still wouldn't trade what I've got for that, to me it sounded like a definite step back.....

Anyway below is a video that I uploaded tonight (but don't know if you will be able to view) just taken with the mic on my phone therefore not the best of recordings. (Volume know on amp only set low at 7 oclock)

I've therefore taken a bit of a gamble.....I've decided to go ahead and have ordered the Marantz PM12SE.........and a WIIM PRO PLUS streamer to connect into my Pioneer N50 to give me WiFi streaming instead of having to hook up my laptop every time I want to listen to my music!!

View: https://youtu.be/mJH0JGgxA80?si=NsvSbOI1YJi8DkRV

Congrats. Can really go wrong with any Marantz stuff. Sometimes your own 'gut' instinct is the best.

Just repeating what others have said: keep us updated.

 

[WayneKerr]

Hi All, thank you for all your replies, I have read them all and have taken in all you have said, however unable to quote each of your comments as would fill this page up really quickly! 😀

I will definitely let you know how it sounds once I receive it, apparently its due to be delivered on Monday.

I understand what you've said re the flooring, however my wifey wouldn't take kindly to me carpeting the floor, walls, and ceilings so that I can get better sound lol!

We have two dogs, and this room where my sound system is fitted is the back room where I spend most of my time with my dogs, therefore needs to be as cleanable as possible.

It isn't feasible to install it in any of the other rooms.

May be that video I posted didn't do it justice, but it sounds really great and isn't tiring to listen to, I've been listening all evening from around 7pm tonight and it's now gone midnight, currently listening to Classical.

My Wiim Pro Plus Streamer was delivered tonight and it's now all set up and working great therefore no more laptop to worry about setting up before I can listen to my music!!

Another quick question as well.....

I originally set the Wiim up for analogue output letting the new dap inside that do the conversion straight into my PM50 and it sounded a little too bright for my liking, I've therefore got it outputting spdif straight into my Pioneer N50 and letting that now do the conversion and it sounds nice again.

However, that N50 is from 2012, have DACS changed much in that time? Should I upgrade that as well? Not sure if to replace it with the Eversolo Z8 DAC?

Would that be an upgrade? The Pioneer back in the day got fab reviews and was about the same price as the Z8 is now.....therefore is the Pioneer a better DAC?

Also re my upgrades, I needed the Wiimpro to enable my streaming without having to mess about with a laptop every time I want to listen to my music, and whilst writing this I'm enjoying my music and able to change tracks and alter the volume without having to get up!!

The PM50 I am also happy with, however the main reason for upgrading this is because it's only 70wpc (I know I shouldn't worry about watts!!) And the PM12SE is speeded at 100wpc but it's been reviewed and tested and is putting out 185wpc!! I think my MA Silver 500's that I upgraded to last gear deserve the new amp.

Also the new PM12SE is definitely the SE (Special Edition) and not the Signature (was my typo and I did realise it was only the Special Edition).

I've read a review and apparently it has the same power transformers as the KI Ruby and shares other similarities, apart from not having the signature, the stone, and the copper chassis on the rear, its apparently a Ruby......that doesn't bother me if it is or isn't, just so long as it has the required power to drive my speakers without causing any damage and it sounds nice as existing then I will be happy 😊 👍

I guess you just stream music and have no physical media? If you're happy with the Pioneer DAC then why change? It obviously suits your ear more than the Wiim DAC. Two schools of thought regarding DACs - some say they sound significantly different, others say the difference is subtle at best.

If you're anal about matching kit then get a matching DAC box from Marantz, the SA12SE would match perfectly Eversolo Z8 is very new to market so no guarantee of longevity, but a lot of hype, it would make the Wiim redundant though.

 

[Gray]

....my wifey wouldn't take kindly to me carpeting the floor

I understand 😞
(Wish I had a pound for every time someone has said similar)

That's why I've never had a wifey and will never have dogs.
Not over keen on cats either, my last one is no longer with me:

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

"... but it sounds really great and isn't tiring to listen to ..." would suggest there is no need to change anything?

 

[skinnypuppy71]

The Wiim pro plus has a very effective graphic eq that should be able to get you to the sound you prefer, it'd save you a bit of cash instead of buying another box.
A good wee bit of info about the Wiim pro plus here.

View: https://youtu.be/3XXWUvm_BNQ?si=s8VbtymyQKGgVseH

Terry used to be very active on the whf forum until he started his channel.

 

[WayneKerr]

Terry used to be very active on the whf forum until he started his channel.

And now he's just another paid promoter and peddler.

 

[daveh75]

And now he's just another paid promoter and peddler.

And audiophool and JCAT shill while he was here!

 

[Fandango Andy]

Hi All, I have owned a Marantz PM50 Amplifier that I purchased used on Ebay approximately 15-20 years ago.

I also purchased a used Pioneer N50 DAC off eBay approximately 15 years ago.

I was preciously running some old Mission floor standers from the 90s that I also purchased used on ebay about 15 years ago.

I upgraded the speakers last year to Monitor Audio Silver 500 Floorstanders.

I have been previously setting up my laptop and streaming Amazon Prime HD via USB Out into the Pioneer N50 DAC and then on to the Merantz PM50.

However it's a pain in the rear setting up the laptop every time as I use the laptop for various different things around the house, and a lot of the time I can't be bothered and as such don't use my system anywhere as much as I would like to.

Now that our children have grown up and left home, we have a little more money to spend 😀

I'm therefore thinking of my next upgrade.

I absolutely LOVE the sound of the Merantz, much so that when I purchased the Merantz years ago I also purchased a Pioneer used off ebay which was apparently the one everybody wanted and I compared both side by side and didn't like the Pioneer, it sounded way too harsh for my liking, therefore sold that on and kept the Marantz.

I don't know if I should keep everything as existing and just purchase a cheap Streamer such as the Wiim Pro at £149.00 or to completely replace my system with an integrated Amp/Dac/Streamer?

And if I do, I would prefer to remain with Marantz as I like their sound signature, however the PM50 is 70W per channel and to get that same output now I would need to get the Marantz Model 40n and that didn't get very good reviews.....

If I upgrade the whole sysyem, even though it will be the most expensive option, I can gain some of that cost back from selling my current setup.

im interested in what you guys would do in my situation?

Generally I would say you don't need that much power, I do fin with a Marantz PM4200 (30W pc), but you have speakers that take a lot of driving. If you like your sound, don't mess with it.

I would just get a streamer as you suggest. I have a WiiM Mini (purchased before the Pro came out otherwise I would have considered that) with an SMSL SU-1 DAC, more than happy with what I have.

 

[ScubaCollie]

Just arrived home from work and it's arrived, and it's a big big box!!! 😳

 

[WayneKerr]

Just arrived home from work and it's arrived, and it's a big big box!!! 😳

Possibly double or treble boxed.

 

[JDL]

Hmmm. Nice box.

 

[WayneKerr]

Just arrived home from work and it's arrived, and it's a big big box!!! 😳

Well? You must have plugged it in by now, any initial thoughts?

 

[Al ears]

Plugged in?
Set up?
Listened?
Thoughts?
A photo?

all pretty irrelevant.

 

[WayneKerr]

all pretty irrelevant.

And why is this so, may I ask?

 

[Al ears]

And why is this so, may I ask?

Probably because the OPs findings are irrelevant to most others?

 

[Oxfordian]

Just arrived home from work and it's arrived, and it's a big big box!!! 😳

Congrats, let us know your initial impressions then once you have got a chance for a longer listen, how you find it then.

 

[JDL]

Probably because the OPs findings are irrelevant to most others?

Of course.

I understand 😞
(Wish I had a pound for every time someone has said similar)

That's why I've never had a wifey and will never have dogs.
Not over keen on cats either, my last one is no longer with me:

 

[WayneKerr]

Probably because the OPs findings are irrelevant to most others?

Not irrelevant to me cos I'm interested in how he's getting on. Likes it, hates it, etc. Normal question as far as I'm concerned.