PM6005 - speaker choice: BX2, BX5 or Zensor 3

[nobru]

Firstly, hi all and thanks for your help...

I have just got (as a present) the Marantz PM/CD 6005 combo. I now have to buy the speakers to match. Unfortunately, no chance of auditioning; I will have to rely on the wisdom of internet. So here is the baseline:

A few quid more or less are not an issue, but I don't want to buy 1000 pound speakers for what is an entry level hifi amp. The lounge is approximately 15' x 20' with a 10' high ceiling. I predominantly listen to classical (LPs, digital and FM), some jazz (CDs and digital) and rock (digital, CD and FM).

I have read dozens of reviews and forums, and I am now trying to decide between Monitor Audio BX2, BX5 or Dali Zensor 3. I'd appreciate to hear from anyone who has heard any of these combinations, or a valid alternative.

Thanks again.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You don't say wether you have the speaker stands or not.

If they are to be included in your budget then all your choices cost about the same.

With that said the BX5's would be my choice - but I'm a floor stander man myself.

Nice looking speaker and have been well received in reviews. And will take up the same amount of floor space.

 

[Tzutzu]

Hi Nobru

I've had the Marantz 5004 combo paired with BX2 and then, for a little while, with Focal Chorus 714.

Because of the size of the room, I'd go for the BX5 or better, as I mentioned before, Focal 714. I still enjoy the Focals a lot.

 

[davedotco]

You don't say wether you have the speaker stands or not.

If they are to be included in your budget then all your choices cost about the same.

With that said the BX5's would be my choice - but I'm a floor stander man myself.

Nice looking speaker and have been well received in reviews. And will take up the same amount of floor space.

I'm completely of the other persuasion, at this sort of price I much prefer stand mounts which I find tend to sound more refined.

On the other hand i find MA speakers to be overly forthright to the point of sounding a bit 'crass' on any music requiring a little subtlety, so not for me.

I am familier with Dali speakers in general, I think they are generally pretty good, the Zensor 1 being my favourite cheap speaker. I have not however heard the 3s, though there are many on here who think highly of them.

From the options you give they would be my choice, even buying unheard. One caveat though, they need decent stands and that big bass driver needs room to breath, if you can manage that they should be fine.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I have to say Davedotco I was going to mention the Dali zensor 5.

My only reservation is the build quality of the small Dali's.

They are bass heavy, more to do with the quality of the boxes than the drivers - careful matching and positioning required.

The BX series are very well built, solid panels - which translate to a more neutral, natural sound.
Maybe not has 'exciting' short term but over time......

Both speakers were tested in the end of a Rotel RA-1520.

Looking at the op's music choices they look a better fit.

Other consideration is the Marantz rep for having a warm sound.

Oh and I could not live with stands!

 

[nobru]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I've read about MA being 'clinical', and although I want the sound to be 'inspiring' (for lack of a better word) and engaging, I am unsure if Dalis would feel imprecise with some of the more nuanced classical and jazz recordings.

Anyone else with experiences or opinions to help tip the scales towards one of these?

 

[rainsoothe]

hi

I haven't heard the MA BX2 with Marantz, I did with Yamaha AS 500 and I didn't like... the partnering. They have some good qualities but the low end wasn't one of them (again, with the Yamaha). However, I heard the Dali Zensor 3 with PM 6005 and CD 6004 with some acoustic guitar jazz and it made me turn my head.

BUT I'll throw in a suggestion, which imo is completely worth it: in this price range, nothing comes close to XTZ 93.23 mk ii. Besides excellent build and sounding awesome, they also come with a -3db treble tuning switch. The advantages don't stop here: they are a wee bit cheaper then the Zensor 3 (at least in my country), which would allow you to budget for their dedicated stands (well the price difference will cover the cost of one of the stands). Also, being an internet based company (sweedish one), they have a "Buy & Try" program - which means you can audition them for 2 or 3 weeks (in the EU) and, if you don't like them, you can return them for a full refund and only pay for return shipping costs (with the couriers they have a deal with, so special price). Oh, and if you live in the US, the home trial is 60 days and they also cover the return shipping. This is the biggest thing if you ask me, since you really should audition hi-fi eq before purchasing, and you get to do it in the best way possible: with YOUR gear and in YOUR home - it does matter. Also, IF you don't like the speakers (which I really really doubt), you can just return them and keep the stands and get the Dalis.

I wish more people auditioned this brand like I have (yes, oddly enough I have a retailer who for some reason stocks XTZ in my city), because people tend to go with the safe bets - like widely appreciated 5star products - but, especially since you can't audition, giving these a try seems like a really advisable thing to do

goodluck

p.s.: oh, and btw - awesome present, man, I wish I was friends or related to the people that gave it ^^

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Well if you're going to be picky.....lol

Your best bet is to try and audition with your amp.

Its the only way you'll get close to what you want.

To my ears the Dali's are a young persons speaker - the BX for the more discerning listener.

On the shop floor the BX range is to me the most handsome budget speaker out there.

Sound wise you'll have to judge for yourself......

Let us know what you decide.

 

[davedotco]

Well if you're going to be picky.....lol

Your best bet is to try and audition with your amp.

Its the only way you'll get close to what you want.

To my ears the Dali's are a young persons speaker - the BX for the more discerning listener.

On the shop floor the BX range is to me the most handsome budget speaker out there.

Sound wise you'll have to judge for yourself......

Let us know what you decide.

Interesting observation.

My thoughts are exactly the opposite. In a general sense anyway.....*scratch_one-s_head*

BTW. When I heard the Zensor 5s (before the release of the 3s) I thought they added more scale and body over the Zensor 1s but at the cost of some clarity. More bass will do that, to a degree, but in this case I thought the price too high.

I would have bought the 1s and spent the saving on the amplifier, in my situation that is, I appreciate that the OP does not have this option.

 

[rainsoothe]

To my ears the Dali's are a young persons speaker - the BX for the more discerning listener.[/b]

Interesting observation.

My thoughts are exactly the opposite. In a general sense anyway.....*scratch_one-s_head*

Heh - same here Also, the Zensor 3s are inbetween the 1s and the 5s - they got more low end then the 1s, but still enough clarity (without harshness).

 

[matthewpiano]

I've owned both BX2s and Zensor 3s and both have different qualities. Personally I found the Dalis more engaging and they certainly have the fuller sound, though they do lose out to the MAs in terms of out-right detail.

However, you could do much better than any of the speakers you mention by looking towards Dynaudio DM2/6s. They are one of the best small speakers I've come across and a bargain at the £399 price tag they now have. These are made in Denmak using Dynaudio's own highly regarded drive units and combine precocious levels of detail and insight with proper respect for instrument timbres and dynamics. They are great performers across the musical board and having used mine with a PM6005 for a while, I can comfortably say that it is a very enjoyable combination. The beauty of the Dyns is that as you improve the amplification they will respond.

 

[Vladimir]

As long as the speakers are above 88dB and 8 ohms, not dipping any lower than 4 ohms, any choice of speaker is good as long as it pleases the OP with its specific sonic character. I can't tell someone else to like the sound I like, I can only recommend a well matched amplifier+speakers pair in technical terms.

Neither the Marantz PM6005 or the Yamaha AS500 are all too powerfull amps, therefore they require speakers easy to drive.

For domestic hi-fi 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks) at listener's position is more than enough.

Using this power calculator we can estimate that 88dB efficient speakers need 180Wpc amplifier to achieve 95dB SPL at listeners position distance of 3m, maintaining a 6dB headroom. 95dB SPL is pretty loud in an average room, some may not go pass the 90dB line, for which they would need a 57Wpc amp.

Now lets say the OP goes for the Dynaudio DM2/6 (which would walk all over other proposed candidates here IMO). They are 86dB and OP would need a 90Wpc amp to get 90dB SPL at listening position 3m away. At 2m away in a small room, to get 90dB SPL only 40Wpc are needed to avoid clipping. Now, if you listen to digital source music with 15dB transient peaks, and your amp has only 3 or 6 db headroom, the excess will be clipping, which you may or may not recognize.

If the OP's listening habbits are a bit vigorous at 95dB+ SPL, I'd recommend 90dB+ efficient floorstanders or a powerfull amp to drive lazy standmounts.

For those that worry about floorstanders working well in smaller rooms, bare in mind that only reason why standmounts work better is because they lack bass, therefore have less nasty room reflections. Turn the bass down on a floorstander and you get the same result. Even better with acoustically treated room, of course.

</wafflingabout>

Thank you for reading. I now reward you with Al Pacino.

 

[nobru]

It is getting more and more interesting (and confusing)...

Dynaudio indeed seem to be a bargain at their current price, and a class above the speakers on my shortlist, but (internet) consensus seems to be that they need a bit more power to really shine than my Marantz can offer.

what to do, what to do...

 

[GCE]

Marantz is ok with B&W 685, how I have tested in shop

 

[davedotco]

As long as the speakers are above 88dB and 8 ohms, not dipping any lower than 4 ohms, any choice of speaker is good as long as it pleases the OP with its specific sonic character. I can't tell someone else to like the sound I like, I can only recommend a well matched amplifier+speakers pair in technical terms.

Neither the Marantz PM6005 or the Yamaha AS500 are all too powerfull amps, therefore they require speakers easy to drive.

For domestic hi-fi 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks) at listener's position is more than enough.

Using this power calculator we can estimate that 88dB efficient speakers need 180Wpc amplifier to achieve 95dB SPL at listeners position distance of 3m, maintaining a 6dB headroom. 95dB SPL is pretty loud in an average room, some may not go pass the 90dB line, for which they would need a 57Wpc amp.

Now lets say the OP goes for the Dynaudio DM2/6 (which would walk all over other proposed candidates here IMO). They are 86dB and OP would need a 90Wpc amp to get 90dB SPL at listening position 3m away. At 2m away in a small room, to get 90dB SPL only 40Wpc are needed to avoid clipping. Now, if you listen to digital source music with 15dB transient peaks, and your amp has only 3 or 6 db headroom, the excess will be clipping, which you may or may not recognize.

If the OP's listening habbits are a bit vigorous at 95dB+ SPL, I'd recommend 90dB+ efficient floorstanders or a powerfull amp to drive lazy standmounts.

For those that worry about floorstanders working well in smaller rooms, bare in mind that only reason why standmounts work better is because they lack bass, therefore have less nasty room reflections. Turn the bass down on a floorstander and you get the same result. Even better with acoustically treated room, of course.

</wafflingabout>

Thank you for reading. I now reward you with Al Pacino.

You are talking average levels Vlad, 90+ dB is very loud for normal listening, even for me.

As always the basic principle is this, if you play 'normal' music at sensible levels, don't boost the bass or use the loudness you will be fine with a 50 watter into those speakers.

Step outside these parameters, heavy bass driven music, a bit of bass boost and higher than average levels and your power requirements rise exponentially, literally.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

That's interesting guys.

Imo the reason I think the Dali's are more targeted at a younger audience is for the reasons stated.

The bass is dominate, but it's not a driver bass it's more a speaker box resonating bass, not particularly accurate - it's a party speaker, if you get what I mean?

Fun in the short term.

The BX5's were more detailed the bass more accurate. Various lower notes were easily distinguishable. I.e drum and bass guitar.

It was this difference that would make me consider the BX5's a more mature speaker .

The music used if memory serves me right was an Anthony Hamilton album it was soul/R&B.

The Rotel which I owned att would be consider bright but within its limits is a very clean sounding amp - it's not a bassy amp ether.

Davedotco why did you come to your conclusion?

Nopiano I agree with your assessment disagree with the conclusion....lol

The world would be rubbish if we all agreed though.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Oh I'd check those dyno's out too.

A brand I'm interested in, I have to admit. For that price well worth a look.

 

[Vladimir]

You are talking average levels Vlad, 90+ dB is very loud for normal listening, even for me.

As always the basic principle is this, if you play 'normal' music at sensible levels, don't boost the bass or use the loudness you will be fine with a 50 watter into those speakers.

Step outside these parameters, heavy bass driven music, a bit of bass boost and higher than average levels and your power requirements rise exponentially, literally.

I'm talking those moments when I want to turn it up a bit because the music carries me, and not get depressed what dingo poo came out of my overpriced, cherished, high fidelity boxes. Not all of my music is Norah Jones and plucking guitars.

The keyword here is headroom. No one needs it untill it's needed.

I would buy Dyns as ex demo after auditioning in person with my own amp. Gives me greater value and significantly reduced risk of not liking them. IME the tricky bit with small Dynaudios is they are power vamps. They have complex and powerful driver motors assemblies that need longer to break in than common drivers. Matched with weak amps and played loud before breaking in, they can sound like cheap plastic PC speakers. Of course I could be completely wrong about small Dyns, as many out-of-the-box happy owners have pointed out in the past.

 

[chebby]

With my speakers (89dB @ 1m) at my listening distance (3m) and desired maximum (sustained) levels of 80dB with 15dB headroom for instantaneous peaks I would need 36 Watts.

Anything at or beyond a continuous level of 85dB (at the listener's position) is likely to cause some damage and a workplace would be obliged - by law - to provide adequate ear protection at such levels.

The more macho among us will obviously want to tell us about their 100+ dB systems that can remove plaster from walls and attract an ASBO, but I find that as impressive as boasting about how long you can hold your hand over a gas hob or stare at the sun through binoculars!

Maybe i'm a 'wimp' when it comes to my dislike of playing music too loud, (good) but I want to continue enjoying my hearing (or as much of it as possible) for my whole lifetime.

 

[Vladimir]

For my 81dB 8ohms speakers to push desired 85dB SPL at 2m listener distance, with ampifier headroom of 12dB, I need 159Wpc in 8ohms amplifier.

Here is how I used to think of amps and speakers "Hey, my speakers are 86dB efficient, I just need 1W to play 86dB SPL at 1m and just 2W at 2m. All good then!" Well, not really. Here is how it's calculated.

dBW = Lreq - Lsens + 20 * Log (D2/Dref) + HR[/b]

W = 10 to the power of (dBW / 10)[/b]

Where:

Lreq = required SPL at listener

Lsens = loudspeaker sensitivity (1W/1M)

D2 = loudspeaker-to-listener distance

Dref = reference distance

HR = desired amplifier headroom

dBW = ratio of power referenced to 1 watt

W = power required

 

[knaithrover]

I have heard BX2's through my Marantz MCR510 (which i'm told is similar sonically to the PM6005) and they sounded very very sweet - these are very detailed sounding speakers which pair very well with a 'warmer' amp such as Marantz's

 

[nobru]

Thanks everyone for taking the time for such thorough replies; i know how little I know. I sense that I will catch the hifi bug in no time, and that whatever I buy now, it will only be the beginning...

However, I don't want to keep my new amp in its box for too long, so let's try a little challenge to help bring this to a conclusion:

Considering the amp, the music taste and the room that I have, which of these four (bx2, bx5, zensor 3, and now dm2/6 as well) would you buy? A direct answer with, if possible, a couple of words on why, and what might be the downsides of that choice.

I am a PITA, but please give it a go...

 

[rainsoothe]

well theres two price categories in there: 1. BX2 and Zensor 3, over which, as I said, I would go XTZ without giving it a second thought, and 2. BX5, DM 2/6, of which I would easily go for the Dynaudio or look into B&W 685 S2 if you can afford or find one as cheap as a 2/6.

 

[Vladimir]

I would go buy these running.

http://www.gumtree.com/p/speakers/sonus-faber-concertino-walnut-speakers-with-atacama-se20-sand-filled-stands/1083060969

No affiliation.

 

[matthewpiano]

The Dyns do take longer to run in than most speakers. Mine took approximately 80 hours before they hit their stride, but I could hear the promise from the beginning and it was well worth the wait.