Oh NO! Cables again!!

[ToppingSMSL]

It's nice to have the science (Resistance, Inductance, Capacitance relatively low) balanced with subjectivity.

I have tried so many types of cabling, QED, AudioQuest, Chord, generic wiring and many I fail to recall but these faux Nordost Valhalla 2s I got from AliExpress have really impressed me.

I highly recommend them

View attachment 7606

Subjectivity is flawed. But if you like the look of something and it makes you feel happy then good.

 

[Jasonovich]

Subjectivity is flawed. But if you like the look of something and it makes you feel happy then good.

Yes definitely agree, subjectivity is flawed. If only we can measure subjectivity then maybe this whole cable debate can be put to bed for good.

If you look beyond the parapet, subjectivity is immersed in HiFi, not just in cabling.
It's like the fuse that ignites our passion for Hifi, is it imagined or is it real?

What is subjectivity? Is it not a perception or reflection of your own personal baseline that defines good sound?

If I may paint a scenario, a group of people collectively go to a speaker audition in their local Hifi dealership and following this, it is likely; the group will draw their own conclusions about the sound quality. Change the positioning of the speakers or wire them up with different cables; how many will detect the difference, if any?
There may be some saying, Oh yeah much better and the other group claiming zilch difference. Maybe the differences are subtle, so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse?
So what matters, and you are correct if it makes you feel happy then that is good

 

[podknocker]

I agree people have the right to feel happy with their purchase, but as it stands, nobody has EVER proven a change in speaker cable has made a difference.

I'm still waiting for someone on this forum, or another, to show expensive cables improve sound quality.

I still defy anyone to prove, with blind testing and without error, that these cables make a difference.

 

[Jasonovich]

I wonder what cables they're using for this McIntosh system?
I bet it's not coat hanger wire!
Love the green glow and Rose Streamer DAC, seems like a marriage made in heaven.

Still, we shouldn't get too hang up on speaker/interconnect cables, because things like speaker performance, voice coil inductance, speaker crossovers, and others have a much more significant impact on sound quality but relatively speaking, it's not's to say cables are not important, it's all part of the greater chain.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/HxSjXGo7qI4?si=-LMNyphmgMyQjOWQ

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Yes definitely agree, subjectivity is flawed. If only we can measure subjectivity then maybe this whole cable debate can be put to bed for good.

If you look beyond the parapet, subjectivity is immersed in HiFi, not just in cabling.
It's like the fuse that ignites our passion for Hifi, is it imagined or is it real?

What is subjectivity? Is it not a perception or reflection of your own personal baseline that defines good sound?

If I may paint a scenario, a group of people collectively go to a speaker audition in their local Hifi dealership and following this, it is likely; the group will draw their own conclusions about the sound quality. Change the positioning of the speakers or wire them up with different cables; how many will detect the difference, if any?
There may be some saying, Oh yeah much better and the other group claiming zilch difference. Maybe the differences are subtle, so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse?
So what matters, and you are correct if it makes you feel happy then that is good

Your scenario is for loudspeaker which are measurably different - and speaker positioning also gives different measurements.


Subjectivity is flawed because of: confirmation bias, placebo effect, and other psychological factors.


Cables are a big indicator of this. There is just no way different speaker cables that all have good RIC (resistance, Inductance and Capacitance) figures are going to sound different in your system. Yet people frequently claim they do. That is confirmation bias and placebo effect in action.

 

[jjbomber]

Love the green glow and Rose Streamer DAC, seems like a marriage made in heaven.

What are those speakers? They look stunning! I have McIntosh being fed by a Rose, but at the cheap end of the market!

 

[Jasonovich]

Your scenario is for loudspeaker which are measurably different - and speaker positioning also gives different measurements.


Subjectivity is flawed because of: confirmation bias, placebo effect, and other psychological factors.


Cables are a big indicator of this. There is just no way different speaker cables that all have good RIC (resistance, Inductance and Capacitance) figures are going to sound different in your system. Yet people frequently claim they do. That is confirmation bias and placebo effect in action.

Confirmation bias and placebo is not the rabbit out of the hat, it's far too simplistic.
We're entering into the realms of psycho-acoustics and social science, it's just as disingenuous and misthreaded as subjectivity.
l'm well aware of RIC but it's also worth noting, some cables are better designed to filter RF, there's also electrical noise being passed down into the cable by the amplifier. Thicker cables have better resistance but if it's under 2 metres that shouldn't be a problem for wiring less than 14 AWG. (quoting Andy from above comments) I really love all this knowledge sharing 👍
There are a lot out on the web that claim, cables make a difference and much more that argue it makes no difference.
I'm almost certain no one is going to wire up their McIntosh with bell wire or coat hanger wire.
I take a pragmatic approach, you don't have to go to town to get a decent sound from your cable. I suppose that depends how much you believe in it and how much you don't.
I really don't have to prove my case and neither do you.
Let's just enjoy the music 🎶 🎶 🎶 🎶 😜

 

[Jasonovich]

What are those speakers? They look stunning! I have McIntosh being fed by a Rose, but at the cheap end of the market!

Sonus Faber speakers. Don't have a clue on the model.
They do look pretty awesome in the Mac Rose setup.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Confirmation bias and placebo is not the rabbit out of the hat, it's far too simplistic.
We're entering into the realms of psycho-acoustics and social science, it's just as disingenuous and misthreaded as subjectivity.
l'm well aware of RIC but it's also worth noting, some cables are better designed to filter RF, there's also electrical noise being passed down into the cable by the amplifier. Thicker cables have better resistance but if it's under 2 metres that shouldn't be a problem for wiring less than 14 AWG. (quoting Andy from above comments) I really love all this knowledge sharing 👍
There are a lot out on the web that claim, cables make a difference and much more that argue it makes no difference.
I'm almost certain no one is going to wire up their McIntosh with bell wire or coat hanger wire.
I take a pragmatic approach, you don't have to go to town to get a decent sound from your cable. I suppose that depends how much you believe in it and how much you don't.
I really don't have to prove my case and neither do you.
Let's just enjoy the music 🎶 🎶 🎶 🎶 😜

Electrical noise from the amplifier? What are you on about? How is the cable going to know that isn't music???


Seriously, watch this video. RF is not a problem for speaker cables - that's why they're not shielded.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzwAdwvy9l4

 

[podknocker]

I doubt the cable 'believers' will ever be convinced a posh cable is a waste of money. It's SBS or Shiny Bling Syndrome and if it looks like something out of Star Trek and costs as much, then it must be able to change your music into something out of this world. I would like to say something again. IF these cables made a difference, you would need this stuff in every part of the signal path. The national grid, your domestic wiring, the plugs, all the CD/streamer internals, the amplifier, the amplifier outputs, the speaker binding posts, the crossover circuits and all the voice coil windings. This will never happen. Surely the addition and potential improvement of an expensive speaker cable would be negated by the other materials at each end? I don't think people have really thought this through. You have a bit of brass at the amplifier outputs and a bit of brass at the speaker terminals and this exotic speaker cable can magically improve the sound quality between these 2 points? It's complete nonsense. What exactly is it that cable believers think an expensive cable is adding to the signal? I think it's the brainwashing nonsense cabling companies and vendors shove onto the internet, in the hope many people don't understand materials science and physics, especially how charge moves in wires. The argument over cables will never end, but as I said in post #153 there are many people here supporting the idea that spending a fortune on cabling is worthwhile, but there is not a single place on the internet where blind listening tests have shown, without error, that an expensive cable sounds better than QED 79 strand. I'm still waiting.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Another funny test of an Audioquest cable - this time a $2,300 pair of interconnects with a 72V battery pack attached. Audioquest Wind 😁

View: https://youtu.be/dLghg0QXPzs?si=ZArP32qHhBwE45M4

 

[Gray]

There are a lot out on the web that claim, cables make a difference and much more that argue it makes no difference.

....And of course the debate between them will always go round in circles Jason.
If the look of a cable can make someone happy, good for them.

But if somebody claims that one cable sounds better than another......
Well, if they could consistently, repeatedly, blindly identify the better of the two cables, then I would have no option but to believe that there is a difference in sound.

One of the most common comments is "Why should I have to prove anything to others?"
I've always thought they might like to prove it conclusively to themselves

Another old favourite, "What would blind testing prove?"
To which the answer can only be, "Everything".
To all witnesses of the miracle event, it would end the debate at a stroke

 

[Jasonovich]

....And of course the debate between them will always go round in circles Jason.
If the look of a cable can make someone happy, good for them.

But if somebody claims that one cable sounds better than another......
Well, if they could consistently, repeatedly, blindly identify the better of the two cables, then I would have no option but to believe that there is a difference in sound.

One of the most common comments is "Why should I have to prove anything to others?"
I've always thought they might like to prove it conclusively to themselves

Another old favourite, "What would blind testing prove?"
To which the answer can only be, "Everything".
To all witnesses of the miracle event, it would end the debate at a stroke

I lost the will to live Gray. 🤣

I believe cables have different tonal characteristics. Sound better to my ears maybe, but cables don't really sound better, they just offer different tonal characteristics.
You see a mixture of thin strands encased with much thicker strands, this is designed to extenuate the different frequencies. Manufacturers have done the research, far more valuable than someone yanking on in parrot fashion on YouTube about RIC.

The acid test will be your ears, if you don't hear a difference between one cable over another, who am I to judge.😌

 

[Jasonovich]

Well bell wire is a bit thin and will have relatively high resistance. Watch this video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlYjQBTx-rs

I have seen this guy's video. I actually agree with much of what he says.

 

[Gray]

...but cables don't really sound better, they just offer different tonal characteristics.

If they offer different tone Jason, then they could indeed sound better depending on the listeners preference.

It's that 'if' that many (most) people dispute 😉

Bottom line to me:
If you (or anyone else) can consistently pass the blind test, your arguement is won - nobody could possibly doubt what you say👍

(Otherwise, expect doubters).

EDIT: Just for the record, I've experimented with cables.
I think I might have heard a difference between speaker cables.
But, unless I could consistently pass the blind test then, sorry, any difference there might have been was not worthwhile.

(The real difference, is that I know I imagined the difference....still alive? 😆).

 

[ToppingSMSL]

RF and speaker cables:

View: https://youtu.be/gL4O_Do2PuQ?si=wS_TPzVhk37IRySU

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

No religion or politics, please.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

No religion or politics, please.

How about science?

 

[Revolutions]

How about science?

Not in this thread, thank you very much.

 

[nopiano]

Not in this thread, thank you very much.

🤣🤣🤣

 

[Dom]

Electrical noise from the amplifier? What are you on about?

Isn't that what the SNR represents.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Isn't that what the SNR represents.

Cables don't change the SNR.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

How about science?

Not specifically mentioned in forum rules - if it's on topic I can't see any issues. Love the subject myself.

 

[Rodolfo]

Not in this thread, thank you very much.

Nor Logic!

 

[Al ears]

Nor Logic!

Beginning to sound more like hifi every day.
It's interesting to see how cable threads evolve...., Or should that be dissolve.
They should never pass further than:-
I have a passive set-up, do I need speaker cables?
Answer = Yes.....