My Arcam / Cambridge / Kef system: a few thoughts...

unhalfbricking

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Around the beginning of last year, I took the plunge and bought myself my first new hi-fi system in nearly thirty years. I posted on here a few times and received some good advice. Anyway, having lived with my system for over a year, I thought I would come back on here and give you a few overall impressions.

I am conscious that I have done very little A-B testing on my set-up at home, so trying to work out what particular sound characterisitc is attributable to which element of my hi-fi system is far from straightforward. Any conclusions I come to in this respect are therefore informed by personal hunches along with reviews I have come across and comments on forums such as this one.

The system I purchased was:
Amp: Arcam A-18. £299.00. (An end-of-line bargain deal from Richer Sounds)
CD: Cambridge 651 Azur. £279.00. (Pressing flaw in side panel, so another bargain deal from Richer Sounds)
Speakers: Kef Q-300. £360.00. (Haggled with Superfi for a small discount)

Let’s not beat about the bush here – I love this set-up. Although flawed (of which more later), this system has revolutionised my whole appreciation of listening to music. I have re-discovered my music ‘mojo’ and have started enjoying a considerable number of new bands as well as re-evaluating many old favourites. I now realise in retrospect how thoroughly jaded I had become with my old system of 30 years (NAD 3020B, Denon 520 CD, B&W DM110s) due to its pleasant, tonally nice sound, but total lack of engagement. My Arcam / Cambridge / Kef system sounds detailed, incredibly transparent, has great imaging and a soundstage the size of Jupiter. The sheer amount of information that it fires at you draws you into the music and keeps you transfixed…and yet it is strangely non-fatiguing. Compared with my old B&Ws, the Kefs are very ‘precise’ and could possibly be criticised for being slightly ‘clinical’ compared with the big, easy DM110s, but they are so much more interesting and informative musically that I am prepared to forgive. Vocals are eye-poppingly forward, tiny percussion details jump out and slap you round the face, the snare drum snaps, guitars crunch, acoustic guitar notes sing, vocals breathe, revealing in fine detail the acoustics of the room in which they were recorded.

Down-sides: Like I said, the system is flawed and has conspicuous weaknesses. My old ‘NAD 3020’ system played it safe. Pipe and slippers. Everything was mid-rangey and competent. Nothing really stood out either in terms of being really, really good or noticeably poor. The Arcam on the other hand… Let’s start with the bass. Oh dear. The bass. On the plus side, the bass has impressive room-filling scale and plenty of pleasingly deep, sub-wooferish ‘grunt’. However, tonally the bass is very soft, disconcertingly flabby and lacks precision, grip and detail. This is especially noticeable playing old seventies recordings of such bass maestros as Chris Squire (Yes) and Geddy Lee (Rush). Their toppy, throaty, characterful bass sound doesn’t cut through the mix and is reduced to a rather anonymous ball of fluff. Overall, bass notes are curiously ‘un-musical’ and more of a soft, room-filling ‘presence’. I suspect this is mainly down to the Arcam, although I would be interested in reader’s comments. The Kefs generally get good write-ups for their bass sound, yet the shortcomings I can hear on my system, while not disastrous, are fairly pronounced.

Mid-range lacks punch. It sounds a bit open and ‘laid back’. On certain recordings you want to keep cranking the volume up just to extract a bit more energy and get the speakers to cut loose. This is especially noticeable on out-and-out rock tracks. Rush (again), the Rolling Stones, Neil Young. Sometimes you would swap a little transparency and detail for a bit more fizz in the mid-range. It sounds a bit like playing something through a graphic equaliser where the mid-range frequencies have been pulled back and the sound, although less ‘boxy’, lacks punch. Again, this is probably the Arcam.

I’m afraid the upper frequencies don’t escape comment either! This very much depends on the recording in question (modern, digital recordings are far less of a problem than some old anaolgue remasters) but the treble can be a bit harsh and thin. Sibilances are the real problem here -- too pronounced and hard. A softer, sweeter treble would be nice. I suspect this is down to the Kefs. It was picked up in the What Hi-fi review as the only significant flaw in the Q-300s and it is borne out in my listening experience over the last year and a bit…but by no means on all recordings.

D’you know what, though. None of these criticisms matter at the moment. It almost feels like academic nit-picking. I’m hearing it, I can register the issues, but it doesn’t really affect my listening pleasure. One day I may consider my options in terms of upgrade, but the plus-points with the Arcam / Cambridge / Kef combo are so compelling and the system offers up such a great soundstage and level of resolution, and such an impressive platform for the music to shine through that it doesn’t bother me. From Led Zeppelin to Barclay James Harvest, from Richard Thompson to Aimee Mann via Laura Marling, Rush, Prefab sprout, Yes, Fleet Foxes, Elvis Costello and Bombay Bicycle Club, my hi-fi system puts a bloody big smile on my face. …any comments or observations on any of the above would be interesting.
 
unhalfbricking said:
Sorry about the lack of paragraph spacing. For some reason the system removed them all.

IMHO Cambridge and Arcam isn't a good mix. I've heard my old Arcam CD73 with a Cambridge 851 and it was very clinical at best.

Sorry couldn't read it all without the paragraphs - too heavy a read. Go into edit and put two spaces for new paragraph.
 
TrevC said:
plastic penguin said:
unhalfbricking said:
Sorry about the lack of paragraph spacing. For some reason the system removed them all.

IMHO Cambridge and Arcam isn't a good mix. I've heard my old Arcam CD73 with a Cambridge 851 and it was very clinical at best.

Probably your speakers aren't as good.

Also the same when I owned the Dac Magic. Clinical.
 

CnoEvil

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There may be several factors at play.

- As has been said, the CA CDP is probably the culprit for the treble.

- The A18 is a slightly "soft" sounding amp, and may be contributing to the bass problems.

- How near the walls are the speakers; are they placed on stable and filled stands, and are they on a suspended wooden floor?
 

Leeps

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plastic penguin said:
unhalfbricking said:
Sorry about the lack of paragraph spacing. For some reason the system removed them all.

IMHO Cambridge and Arcam isn't a good mix. I've heard my old Arcam CD73 with a Cambridge 851 and it was very clinical at best.

Sorry couldn't read it all without the paragraphs - too heavy a read. Go into edit and put two spaces for new paragraph.

Funny that. I was about to suggest that the OP would have been better off with a Cambridge Azur amp slightly smoothed over by an Arcam CD player. Based on my experience with the older 640 Azur Cambridge CD & Amp, I'd say the amp is definitely the stronger of the two components. The bass was tight punchy and very well timed. The CD could be a little raucous in the treble. When I played blurays or TV through the same amp the tonal balance throughtout the frequency range was wonderful to my ears: detailed but never too brittle.

I still use the CD but only as a transport now. I prefer the tonal balance my AV receiver offers compared to the DAC in the CD.
 
CnoEvil said:
There may be several factors at play.

- As has been said, the CA CDP is probably the culprit for the treble.

- The A18 is a slightly "soft" sounding amp, and may be contributing to the bass problems.

- How near the walls are the speakers; are they placed on stable and filled stands, and are they on a suspended wooden floor?

As I've said many times, Cambridge stuff has always been IMHO 'souless'. Had it with Dac Magic, heard it round Gerrard's place, and my friend had the earlier 640 amp and CDP with MS floorstanding speakers.
 

matt49

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CnoEvil said:
There may be several factors at play.

- As has been said, the CA CDP is probably the culprit for the treble.

- The A18 is a slightly "soft" sounding amp, and may be contributing to the bass problems.

- How near the walls are the speakers; are they placed on stable and filled stands, and are they on a suspended wooden floor?

Yes, and also well worth messing around with hanging duvets on the walls etc to see if you came tame the sibilance. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Of course, if it does work, you then need to find a domestically acceptable permanent solution, which may not be possible. Even so, it would be worthwhile to find out to what extent the room is the culprit.

Matt
 

Leeps

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Then the MS speakers were simply the wrong partners. If anything my old Cambridge / Ruark system had almost too much soul - it was a very exuberant combination that was stunning with many genres; its fault was that it didn't suffer poor or harshly recorded source material. If I still had the system PP, I'd love to see the look on your face playing Rodrigo y Gabriela's 11:11 or Radiohead's Amnesiac and then see whether you still felt it was 'souless'.

Not having a pop at your comment btw, but just saying it's all in the blend. Your experience just demonstrates how difficult it is to accurately assess one component in isolation.
 

unsleepable

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I also have an Arcam amplifier with Kef speakers—A19 and R100—, but no Cambridge CDP. My sources are only digital with an irDac. And the only criticism I share with the OP is that I find the mid-range a tad recessed—but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it lacks punch, at all. I did audition and owned a few amplifiers before settling for the A19, and this is the sound that suited me best of all—but I still see room for improvement in the mid-range. Maybe it is just that I was used to the more "on the face" sound of previous amplifiers such as the Naim XS-2.

I don't find the treble harsh. It is very detailed and extended, though, which I very much enjoy. The general sound is neutral only slightly tending to the warm. Bass is actually very good, it was one of the clearest improvements with the A19 and in this regard I believe it is limited by my speakers. I think Arcam may have increased the damping factor in the A19, though, in comparison with its previous amplifiers.
 

manicm

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unsleepable said:
I also have an Arcam amplifier with Kef speakers—A19 and R100—, but no Cambridge CDP. My sources are only digital with an irDac. And the only criticism I share with the OP is that I find the mid-range a tad recessed—but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it lacks punch, at all. I did audition and owned a few amplifiers before settling for the A19, and this is the sound that suited me best of all—but I still see room for improvement in the mid-range. Maybe it is just that I was used to the more "on the face" sound of previous amplifiers such as the Naim XS-2.

I don't find the treble harsh. It is very detailed and extended, though, which I very much enjoy. The general sound is neutral only slightly tending to the warm. Bass is actually very good, it was one of the clearest improvements with the A19 and in this regard I believe it is limited by my speakers. I think Arcam may have increased the damping factor in the A19, though, in comparison with its previous amplifiers.

Which iPod are you using with the irDac?
 
T

the record spot

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I know the KEF R and Q ranges seem to be popular. My own tastes veer well away from them however; I found the R100 a plodding mess, so am really not surprised to hear your views.

Seeing as you've some room for the slightly bigger speaker, have you the inclination to try out some Tannoy DC6 speakers? I'm a big fan of the smaller DC4 and it has a midrange to die for. Bass in smaller rooms is terrific, even for the size, so I'd expect the bigger speaker to deliver the same, but bigger and better.

The Dual Concentric driver that Tannoy uses is a revelation (qualifier: IMO) - huge soundstage, instruments played with precision, Geddy Lee's bass never sounded plodding, but detailed and agile. I listen to a lot of Yes as well and Starship Trooper has the lovely thrum of Squire's bass in the opening bars coming out all present and correct.

I bought my Tannoys coming up on three years ago (in October I think), and they''re played from morning till night - music, games and movies. I'm listening to the Clockwork Angels album and for all that recent Rush albums haven't delivered in the mastering stakes too well, this one is okay and not too congested (although I'm sure someone will be round with a graph to prove otherwise shortly!).

Give the Tannoys a spin - you might be pleasantly surprised.
 

unsleepable

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manicm said:
Which iPod are you using with the irDac?

Most of the time, I play music from my computer with Spotify or iTunes through the USB audio device. Otherwise, iPad or iPhone through Airport Express. It doesn't make a difference, though.
 

lindsayt

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You've spent a sensible amount of money - about £1k on a system that's making you happy and making you want to listen to music when you get home. This is what hi-fi is all about. Or should be.

You have remarkably similar tastes in music to myself.

I know what you mean about the bass bloom. Bit tricky to solve this without going to much larger sealed box speakers, which you may not want to do.
 
T

the record spot

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lindsayt said:
You've spent a sensible amount of money - about £1k on a system that's making you happy and making you want to listen to music when you get home. This is what hi-fi is all about. Or should be.

You have remarkably similar tastes in music to myself.

I know what you mean about the bass bloom. Bit tricky to solve this without going to much larger sealed box speakers, which you may not want to do.

Not really tricky at all, unless you hold the view above that is...
 

unhalfbricking

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Thanks for the replies, folks. Time is too short, at the moment, to write in full about all the things I would like to. Busy week. Will post further nearer the weekend. I have a couple of questions plus an observation involving one of the Record Spot's favourite tracks...'Starship trooper' by Yes.
 

lindsayt

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the record spot said:
lindsayt said:
You've spent a sensible amount of money - about £1k on a system that's making you happy and making you want to listen to music when you get home. This is what hi-fi is all about. Or should be.

You have remarkably similar tastes in music to myself.

I know what you mean about the bass bloom. Bit tricky to solve this without going to much larger sealed box speakers, which you may not want to do.

Not really tricky at all, unless you hold the view above that is...

Can you name a speaker with holes in the cabinet or of a vaguely similar size to the Kef's that don't have a bloomy bass or that don't throw the baby out with the bath water by having an overly lean bass? I've not come across any so far at an affordable price. You may have done.
 

jerry klinger

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plastic penguin said:
As I've said many times, Cambridge stuff has always been IMHO 'souless'.

In fact, you've said it several times here.

You may well be right in some cases, but the StreamMagic 6 I had for a few days at home sounded anything but soulless - quite musical, dynamic and exciting, in fact. Trouble was, I couldn't get the d**n thing to work for more than a few hours at a time (on a simple ethernet connection)..... not something my ND5XS has a problem with!
 

unhalfbricking

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I'm not sure the bloomy bass is entirely the fault of the Kefs. Before I bought my Cambridge CD player, for a couple of months I ran a NAD 515 CD player through my Arcam / Kef combo and the bass was much better....tighter, more 'natural' and punchier. The NAD had a more 'analogue' sound than the Cambridge as well. The only problem with the NAD 515 was when the soundstage filled up, it struggled to hold things together...

Example: the final section of 'Starship trooper' by Yes has a repeated three-chord guitar sequence which goes on for about three minutes. The track slowly builds as more instruments enter into the mix. Towards the end, Bill Bruford is knocking seven bells out of his cymbals and Steve Howe's solo closes the track (with lots of stereo panning). The NAD couldn't cope. As the mix became more dense it just sounded like a big bowl of mush. That track alone persuaded me to part with the NAD (I also thought the 515 lacked a bit of 'top end'). The Cambridge copes brilliantly with that track. Separation and imaging is on a completely different planet.

...anyway, back to the bass. The first thing I noticed when I bought the Cambridge was that the bass was bigger and tubbier...less precise. With the Cambridge 651, what you gain in top end and separation you lose with the bass. I still definitely prefer the Cambridge overall, although with simpler, leaner music the NAD was a star performer.
 

matthewpiano

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For a while I had Arcam CD17 with A18 and KEF Q300s. The KEFs were certainly much better than the B&W 686s I initially paired with the Arcam. The 686s really were a boomy mess - in part because the Arcam struggled to control them (actually a Rotel RA04SE did a much better job, but the 686s still leaned towards bloom in the lower registers). The KEFs didn't tax the amp as much but I did find they needed quite a bit of space to sound their best and, in the end, a bigger room than I have.
 
Leeps said:
Then the MS speakers were simply the wrong partners. If anything my old Cambridge / Ruark system had almost too much soul - it was a very exuberant combination that was stunning with many genres; its fault was that it didn't suffer poor or harshly recorded source material. If I still had the system PP, I'd love to see the look on your face playing Rodrigo y Gabriela's 11:11 or Radiohead's Amnesiac and then see whether you still felt it was 'souless'.

Not having a pop at your comment btw, but just saying it's all in the blend. Your experience just demonstrates how difficult it is to accurately assess one component in isolation.

Having heard budget Cambridge components, they produce a very high level of detail but IMHO with the detail the trade-off is that it lacks soul or feeling compared to other price compatible makes. The better compromise is Arcam but... unless you get the combo right entry-level Arcam amps can struggle with controlling certain speakers.
 

unsleepable

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plastic penguin said:
Having heard budget Cambridge components, they produce a very high level of detail but IMHO with the detail the trade-off is that it lacks soul or feeling compared to other price compatible makes. The better compromise is Arcam but... unless you get the combo right entry-level Arcam amps can struggle with controlling certain speakers.

Even though I auditioned quite a few amplifiers before choosing the A19, the truth is that I haven't heard this amplifier with other speakers than mine, so I don't know how good they are controlling speakers in general. I can say, though, that I liked the A19 best with mine.

By the way, what happened with the A38 you were going to try? I was looking forward to that.
 
unsleepable said:
plastic penguin said:
Having heard budget Cambridge components, they produce a very high level of detail but IMHO with the detail the trade-off is that it lacks soul or feeling compared to other price compatible makes. The better compromise is Arcam but... unless you get the combo right entry-level Arcam amps can struggle with controlling certain speakers.

By the way, what happened with the A38 you were going to try? I was looking forward to that.

Still going to happen. I've had a lot of reshuffling of my business so not even thought about the A38 or any hi-fi related stuff over the last couple of weeks.

When I have the time you'll hear about it... :)
 

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