Newbie help with some distortion when playing vinyl

[TOPDIV]

I'm slowly figuring out how best to listen to a newly acquired but old Rega Planar 3, that has a new Audio Technica AT95 cartidge and stylus. It has been very well maintained and upgraded and has the old 'S' shaped R200 arm (alhtough very nicely re-wired).

I originally linked this straight to a Denon 4310 AVR's phono stage,but quickly realised i needed a dedicate phono stage so added a 'Firebottle' (2nd hand from same place i got the turntable).

Evetything has been progressing well and it's been quite eye opening realising just how bad some records have been recorded, but equally there are some absolutely fantastic recordings and i'm enjoying the experience immensely.

However a small problem has surfaced, nothing major but on a few new or excellent condition records (Rumours, Barbra Streisand 'Guilty' and Terence Trent D'Arby debut album) there is definitely some distortion when the singer sings an 'S' at a certain pitch on certain tracks (worse when Babs sings it).

Ass i'm gradually learning and improving things i have managed to get the sound of a well recorded LP to be very appealing to my ears and i feel it's about as good as i can get without having to buy a load more expensive stuff (which you just know will happen anyway!) so i'm happy, but this little distortion problem is a niggle that perhaps can be sorted.

As Barbra Streisand sounds absolutely fantastic until this one track with the 'S' problem (it's happens on 'The Love Inside' track when she sings 'inSide') i can't see it being the headphones or speakers, or the amp/phono stage so i'm guessing it's the cartridge ??

Can anyone confirm this for me and,if you think that sounds the answer, then what cartridge would you recommend ? as mentioned it's a new cartridge and i'm loathe to spend too much more on another, although a bit of research suggests just over £100 would buy me one that has had praise on forums (Nagaoka MP110).

Thoughts ???

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Sibilance, as it is called, can be problem with vinyl. Do you have CD copies of the same albums to compare as if it's on the recording there's very little you can do about it; vinyl can compound sibilance. The only way I've found to reduce it is to ensure that your cartridge is set-up perfectly and choose a fine-line stylus profile, this won't totally cure the problem but will be as near as dammit as good as you can get.

EDIT: Just listened to the Babs track on CD and I wouldn't say that the sibilance is harsh on the digital copy so definitely a stylus manifestation. In the AT range fine-line = Microline... but you won't find these cheap.

 

[Bemar]

get a used at440 or the new vm540ml, say goodbye to sibilance

 

[TOPDIV]

Thanks DougK and Bemar, nice to know the problem has a name, and even better to know there is a solution, even if it is a fairly costly one.

Another question for you just to make sure i'm doing the most cost effective upgrade - Given the £225 ish price of the suggested cartridge, could i ask if you thought it would be more beneficial to save up, sell my Rega for the £250 ish i got it for, and buy a new RP3 with the supplied Elys 2 cartridge for £600 ish ? or do you think i'd still end up hankering for a new cartridge even on the new model ?

Thanks again for the inital replies

 

[Al ears]

Thanks DougK and Bemar, nice to know the problem has a name, and even better to know there is a solution, even if it is a fairly costly one.

Another question for you just to make sure i'm doing the most cost effective upgrade - Given the £225 ish price of the suggested cartridge, could i ask if you thought it would be more beneficial to save up, sell my Rega for the £250 ish i got it for, and buy a new RP3 with the supplied Elys 2 cartridge for £600 ish ? or do you think i'd still end up hankering for a new cartridge even on the new model ?

Thanks again for the inital replies

Can I ask what this firebottle is and how you have that wired in to the rest of your system.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Can't vouch for the change of turntable as I've never owned a Rega. The Elys 2 is an elliptical stylus so possibly no improvement over what you currently have. Think you need to chase down a fine-line to handle the sibilance issues you have.

Sibilance does not bother some people, but like you it does bother me; I'd rather try to banish it if at all possible. I did try an AT440mlb last year, stunning cart for the price, but a bit too bright in my system for my taste, so settled on an MP500... amazing cartridge, although I do prefer the MP300 if it could handle sibilance like the 500.

I can see that the AT's have increased in price by quite a margin since last year so not cheap anymore. Ortofon have a fine-line in their range - 2M Bronze. Unfortunately none of these options are cheap...

Welcome to the world of vinyl playback, it will keep you forever poor, financially, but rich in musicality *biggrin*

 

[TOPDIV]

Hi Al Ears,

The Firebottle is,i believe, a valve based phono stage that has been home made by the man that designed it (i think that is correct but i'm sure someone else will know for sure) . There are a few articles on the internet about them, but basically i went back to the original source of my recently 2nd hand Rega Planar, as the previous owner was a bit of an enthusiast and already had the Rega running through the Firebottle.

It's a very plain,unattractive and fairly large piece of kit and he prefered to use a Shiit Mani as it fitted on his rack and the Firebottle didn't. He told me that the Firebottle definitely sounded better than the Schiit (but then he would wouldn't he!) but that he just didn't have room for it,which i could see for myself.The sound of the Rega and the Firebottle when demo'd for me was difficult to fault, so it was a no brainer to go back to him, especially at the price (£150).

It only has one pair of input and output terminals (input from my turntable, output to the CD input on the Denon) an On/Off button and a light to indicate it is on (although you could lay some bacon on the top of it and that would also give you a fair indication of whether it was on or not).

 

[ifor]

... it could be the phonostage that is the problem; poor RIAA implementation. More likely than the cartridge.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

TOPDIV, are you in the UK, if so whereabouts? County will suffice. I may be in a position to help you narrow the problem down.

 

[Bemar]

The at440 is most commonly bright on a system, but that is because of the commonly incorrect loading.

On Audio Technicas official site it says ”Load Capacitance[/b] : 100-200pF” for the cartridge and that is a total value of the load from preamp all the way to the cartridge.

the reason why it is experienced as bright is because the overall load tension from the phono rca of the turntable, and the riaa capacitors are higher than recommended.

This cartridge is more demanding in that regard compared to ie a grado cart...

once that issue is dealt with the cart actually sounds really good and you never have to be worried about the ”imperfections”. I have the rega riaa and a nad amp so I never experience my setup as bright.. the rega helps out with the sound staging - excellent pre, and the nad helps out with the harshness although i like warm equipment generally - once the capacitance is dealt with on its own though its not going to be as harsh.

 

[TOPDIV]

TOPDIV, are you in the UK, if so whereabouts? County will suffice. I may be in a position to help you narrow the problem down.

Hi DougK,

I'm in GU47 postcode - close to M3 at Camberley and near M4 Reading.

 

[TOPDIV]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, although i don't like the sound of the recently purchased phono stage being the problem (but can accept the fact that i've jumped into something too quickly without proper research !).

As my AVR does have a phono stage, then i will cut out the Firebottle phono stage and re listen to the records that i've been able to notice the sibilance on, then if it's still there it's the cartridge and if not, it's the Firebottle..... i think !

Failing that, i could always limit my music selections to songs that don't have women singing words containing the letter S *wacko*

Will test tomorrow and confirm.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, although i don't like the sound of the recently purchased phono stage being the problem (but can accept the fact that i've jumped into something too quickly without proper research !).

As my AVR does have a phono stage, then i will cut out the Firebottle phono stage and re listen to the records that i've been able to notice the sibilance on, then if it's still there it's the cartridge and if not, it's the Firebottle..... i think !

Failing that, i could always limit my music selections to songs that don't have women singing words containing the letter S *wacko*

Will test tomorrow and confirm.

Do your test tomorrow and see what the outcome is, my bet is the cartridge. If you're into female vocals as I am then don't settle for sibilance ruining a performance, it can be cured.

We are not allowed to sell on this forum but I have an AT440mlb with about 20 hours on which you are more than welcome to trial, we can talk about other aspects off-forum. I'm in Essex so not far.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

The at440 is most commonly bright on a system, but that is because of the commonly incorrect loading.

On Audio Technicas official site it says ”Load Capacitance : 100-200pF” for the cartridge and that is a total value of the load from preamp all the way to the cartridge.

the reason why it is experienced as bright is because the overall load tension from the phono rca of the turntable, and the riaa capacitors are higher than recommended.

This cartridge is more demanding in that regard compared to ie a grado cart...

once that issue is dealt with the cart actually sounds really good and you never have to be worried about the ”imperfections”. I have the rega riaa and a nad amp so I never experience my setup as bright.. the rega helps out with the sound staging - excellent pre, and the nad helps out with the harshness although i like warm equipment generally - once the capacitance is dealt with on its own though its not going to be as harsh.

Agree with everything you have to say. How would one go about adjusting the load capacitance for an MM cartridge?

 

[TOPDIV]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, although i don't like the sound of the recently purchased phono stage being the problem (but can accept the fact that i've jumped into something too quickly without proper research !).

As my AVR does have a phono stage, then i will cut out the Firebottle phono stage and re listen to the records that i've been able to notice the sibilance on, then if it's still there it's the cartridge and if not, it's the Firebottle..... i think !

Failing that, i could always limit my music selections to songs that don't have women singing words containing the letter S *wacko*

Will test tomorrow and confirm.

Do your test tomorrow and see what the outcome is, my bet is the cartridge. If you're into female vocals as I am then don't settle for sibilance ruining a performance, it can be cured.

We are not allowed to sell on this forum but I have an AT440mlb with about 20 hours on which you are more than welcome to trial, we can talk about other aspects off-forum. I'm in Essex so not far.

Great thankyou, sounds like a plan.....

 

[Bemar]

I took a lot of help from this page

http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/loading/

 

[Deleted member 108165]

General question to all: Isn't fitting a non-Rega cart on a Rega deck troublesome with respect to cartridge height? I've read somewhere that Rega arms need to be shimmed to accomodate taller carts for correct VTA, which is basically every other cart out there... except the Rega cart range.

 

[priam]

The planar 1 wasn't made for cart changes. I've heard that you need spacers to change the carts for non-regas carts, due to its VTA.

The general advice I got before I upgraded to the Planar 3 was get the TT to a qualified dealer, who will fix it up in whatever ways and make it work.

 

[priam]

Advice I got from Paul

The Planar 1 turntable is a deliberately "plug and play" design and the Rega Carbon Cartridge that is pre-fitted tracks at 1.75 grams when the couterweight is pushed against the collar on the stub, the anti skate is automatically biased to accomodate and the VTA is correct. If you wanted to change the cartridge that is your perogative and playing weight can then be set using a stylus pressure gauge. If the cartridge is non Rega then it may be necessary to insert shims underneath the 3 point mount at the back of the arm if the cartridge chosen is deeper (Ortofon for example)

Any competent dealer should be happy to assist you if you require help and would no doubt set up the turntable for you if you have purchased the cartridge from them.

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

 

[TOPDIV]

Apologies for my disappearance from this thread !

I had multiple problems with my set up (one of which was the 'sibilance' discussed on this thread) so over the past week i have tried to go back to square one and check the placement of equipment, the wiring/connections, made sure the turntable was level and re calibrated etc before going any further.

This turned out to be good and bad, with the good part being that the placement of an Auralic Aries Mini streamer was identified as causing some feedback problems and has been rectified but bad as the 'firebottle' phono stage i was using continues to give unwanted feedback regardless of placement so has been excluded from the system now, which is a huge shame given that it is a definite improvement in sound over the Denon AVR's existing phono stage.

I can do without the firebottle and just use the Denon's phono stage (which then frees up my other analogue input) but on certain LP's,like the excellent Daft Punk 'Random Access Memories' that i recently purchased only due to it being reccomended as a fantastic audiophile LP, the sound never reaches the heights (or depths?) it does when played through the firebottle. I was blown away by this LP on first play, using firebottle phonostage, yet on 2nd play through without the firebottle, it was very enjoyable but i kept waiting for the bits that had made me grin like a cheshire cat on first play but they came and went without the same sense of wonder i had had previously.

Another problem i feel sure has cropped up is that i can hear the first 1/2 second of sound from the turntable playing through the speakers or headphones, quietly, before the 'real' sound comes along. I spent a while thinking this was just how a particular song had been recorded as it was acapella (Terence Trent D'Arby 'As Yet Untitled' on his 'The Hardline According To' LP) but as the opening notes on Maggie May did a similar thing then i can only pressume it's a problem with the turntable/phono stage/amp ? While blasting out 90% of music through speakers this isn't detectable or bothersome but it's not right is it ?

I'm guessing this is what you get when you try to shoehorn a turntable into an AVR/digital set up !

I think, and have been advised (admittedly by people who sell hi fi for a living !) that my best bet is to buy an AVR with a much better quality phono stage/stereo performance - an Arcam 390 was one suggestion - but i am finding it hard to effectively bin a perfectly good Denon 4310 that serves my TV/film needs perfectly, especially given the near £2k price tag mentioned for the Arcam (can't rememebr what else suggested but it was an unfeasible £2800).

My idea was to buy something like the Rega Brio R and use that for the turntable and Aries (with the option of possibly purchasing a new power supply for the Firebottle should i still hanker for the valve based phono stage) and live with the rigmarole of changing front speaker cables over from AVR to stereo amp each time i wanted to play music (banana plugs obviously). This sets me back £600 for the amp and possibly £50 for the new Firebottle power supply (iFi audio iPower - which i was recommended to get for the Aries). Should give a much better stereo sound than the AVR and the headphone output has to be better than the AVR's.

Of course this hasn't solved the orignal sibilance problem, but although that was/is iritating, i feel i need to address the other problems first.

Anyone got an opinion on which way to go, or indeed a better suggestion as neither is perfect (for different reasons). I could probably afford around £1k to get a perfect solution but can't seem to find a perfect solution for that price. Note: if someone could recommend a valve based stereo amp with phono stage and headphone output, that has at least one more analogue input for under £1k, that would be very welcome.

 

[Gray]

Apologies for my disappearance from this thread !

I had multiple problems with my set up (one of which was the 'sibilance' discussed on this thread) so over the past week i have tried to go back to square one and check the placement of equipment, the wiring/connections, made sure the turntable was level and re calibrated etc before going any further.

This turned out to be good and bad, with the good part being that the placement of an Auralic Aries Mini streamer was identified as causing some feedback problems and has been rectified but bad as the 'firebottle' phono stage i was using continues to give unwanted feedback regardless of placement so has been excluded from the system now, which is a huge shame given that it is a definite improvement in sound over the Denon AVR's existing phono stage.

I can do without the firebottle and just use the Denon's phono stage (which then frees up my other analogue input) but on certain LP's,like the excellent Daft Punk 'Random Access Memories' that i recently purchased only due to it being reccomended as a fantastic audiophile LP, the sound never reaches the heights (or depths?) it does when played through the firebottle. I was blown away by this LP on first play, using firebottle phonostage, yet on 2nd play through without the firebottle, it was very enjoyable but i kept waiting for the bits that had made me grin like a cheshire cat on first play but they came and went without the same sense of wonder i had had previously.

Another problem i feel sure has cropped up is that i can hear the first 1/2 second of sound from the turntable playing through the speakers or headphones, quietly, before the 'real' sound comes along. I spent a while thinking this was just how a particular song had been recorded as it was acapella (Terence Trent D'Arby 'As Yet Untitled' on his 'The Hardline According To' LP) but as the opening notes on Maggie May did a similar thing then i can only pressume it's a problem with the turntable/phono stage/amp ? While blasting out 90% of music through speakers this isn't detectable or bothersome but it's not right is it ?

I'm guessing this is what you get when you try to shoehorn a turntable into an AVR/digital set up !

I think, and have been advised (admittedly by people who sell hi fi for a living !) that my best bet is to buy an AVR with a much better quality phono stage/stereo performance - an Arcam 390 was one suggestion - but i am finding it hard to effectively bin a perfectly good Denon 4310 that serves my TV/film needs perfectly, especially given the near £2k price tag mentioned for the Arcam (can't rememebr what else suggested but it was an unfeasible £2800).

My idea was to buy something like the Rega Brio R and use that for the turntable and Aries (with the option of possibly purchasing a new power supply for the Firebottle should i still hanker for the valve based phono stage) and live with the rigmarole of changing front speaker cables over from AVR to stereo amp each time i wanted to play music (banana plugs obviously). This sets me back £600 for the amp and possibly £50 for the new Firebottle power supply (iFi audio iPower - which i was recommended to get for the Aries). Should give a much better stereo sound than the AVR and the headphone output has to be better than the AVR's.

Of course this hasn't solved the orignal sibilance problem, but although that was/is iritating, i feel i need to address the other problems first.

Anyone got an opinion on which way to go, or indeed a better suggestion as neither is perfect (for different reasons). I could probably afford around £1k to get a perfect solution but can't seem to find a perfect solution for that price. Note: if someone could recommend a valve based stereo amp with phono stage and headphone output, that has at least one more analogue input for under £1k, that would be very welcome.

That's nothing caused by your equipment TOPDIV. So one less worry at least.

 

[Gray]

I took a lot of help from this page

http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/loading/

...don't forget that, when it comes to capacitance, a parallel capacitor will increase the overall capacitance.

Wheras a parallel resistor reduces the overall resistance.

(Maybe plastic is all he had available? but it would be preferable to use screened plugs for the resistors and certainly avoid those screw type plugs for anything permanent)

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Don't ditch the amp, just get a decent phono stage, or sort out the Firebottle. As for the first 1/2 second of sound I get that too on some of my LP's but can only detect it when listening through headphones.

 

[Gray]

General question to all: Isn't fitting a non-Rega cart on a Rega deck troublesome with respect to cartridge height? I've read somewhere that Rega arms need to be shimmed to accomodate taller carts for correct VTA, which is basically every other cart out there... except the Rega cart range.

It was decades ago, all I remember was that, for its single fixing nut, the required spanner seemed big (probably because I was only a baby)

I seem to remember using one of the supplied chrome spacer collars supplied with the RB300 to allow an AT95E to be fitted, resulting in perfect arm height. So you're right, arm height is spacer adjusted, not troublesome in my case, but I can see how it might be.

 

[TOPDIV]

Thanks for the advice Gray and Doug.

A lot of learning to do on my part - at least i am now aware of sibilance and pre echo (and i know i don't care for either very much !)