Newbie help with some distortion when playing vinyl

[Deleted member 108165]

Maybe stick to CDs instead then *smile*

 

[MajorFubar]

Thanks for the advice Gray and Doug.

A lot of learning to do on my part - at least i am now aware of sibilance and pre echo (and i know i don't care for either very much !)

When you get to a certain age you don't hear the pre-echo unless the volume is loud enough to blow your ear drums out when the music really starts lol. Back in the day when I used to make 'mix tapes' from records, I used to rely on hearing the pre-echo so I knew when to release the Pause control. That and watching the position of the record label.

 

[Oldphrt]

You already have the AT95 so change the stylus to a 95EX and prepare to be amazed. Sibilance distortion will be cured.

 

[MajorFubar]

TBH I totally get where the OP is coming from because even I've been plagued to death with his on some records, I'm definitely not a newby, my MC-3 Turbo is already a so-called fine-line, and I've tried every different alignment protractor known to man, including the TD160-specifc protractor on Vinyl Engine. The differences are never more than minor.

The (already mentioned) AT440MLB is an oft recommended cure, but it certainly comes at a price these days especially since it looks like it's been discontinued. Surely there must be other carts circa £200 that can track high frequencies and sibilants well?

 

[Al ears]

TBH I totally get where the OP is coming from because even I've been plagued to death with his on some records, I'm definitely not a newby, my MC-3 Turbo is already a so-called fine-line, and I've tried every different alignment protractor known to man, including the TD160-specifc protractor on Vinyl Engine. The differences are never more than minor.

The (already mentioned) AT440MLB is an oft recommended cure, but it certainly comes at a price these days especially since it looks like it's been discontinued. Surely there must be other carts circa £200 that can track high frequencies and sibilants well?

I would suggest there are some below that budget. However, distortions of this type are often in the ears of the listener or are not down to the cartridge in the first instance. I'd put it down to the preamp.

P.S.: 440 MLb (Amazon et al) still available although they have been discontinued.

 

[Oldphrt]

distortions of this type are often in the ears of the listener or are not down to the cartridge in the first instance. I'd put it down to the preamp.

Total bollocks.

 

[Gray]

Thanks for the advice Gray and Doug.

A lot of learning to do on my part - at least i am now aware of sibilance and pre echo (and i know i don't care for either very much !)

When you get to a certain age you don't hear the pre-echo unless the volume is loud enough to blow your ear drums out when the music really starts lol. Back in the day when I used to make 'mix tapes' from records, I used to rely on hearing the pre-echo so I knew when to release the Pause control. That and watching the position of the record label.

Exactly what I did. And didn't we make some great tapes eh? Sounds like you were as obssesive about tight starts as me.

(On a mobile disco I used to hold tight backcues on a slip-cloth, rather than relying on the half turn spin up to speed that the decks' motor switches required - as if the pissed audience cared about a delayed start)

 

[Al ears]

distortions of this type are often in the ears of the listener or are not down to the cartridge in the first instance. I'd put it down to the preamp.

Total bollocks.

I said I would. You, of course, are perfectly entitled to your own opinion.

Or was that the preamp you were referring to? ;-)

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I would suggest there are some below that budget. However, distortions of this type are often in the ears of the listener or are not down to the cartridge in the first instance. I'd put it down to the preamp.

As I have said before some people are immune to sibilance, it doesn't bother them one iota, some others aren't so easy to please and it grates away at them. Having had personal experience of this issue I certainly wouldn't put it down to the preamp as in my case a change of stylus almost cured it completely.

 

[Oldphrt]

distortions of this type are often in the ears of the listener or are not down to the cartridge in the first instance. I'd put it down to the preamp.

Total bollocks.

I said I would. You, of course, are perfectly entitled to your own opinion.

Or was that the preamp you were referring to? ;-)

How on earth do you imagine a preamp can cause end of side sibilant distortion? Do tell.

PS, it can't, obviously.

 

[MajorFubar]

Exactly what I did. And didn't we make some great tapes eh? Sounds like you were as obssesive about tight starts as me.

(On a mobile disco I used to hold tight backcues on a slip-cloth, rather than relying on the half turn spin up to speed that the decks' motor switches required - as if the pissed audience cared about a delayed start)

Yeah they don't know they're born today lol. And for the same reason, I originally had a dislike of logic control cassette decks because the pause would never release as fast as a mechanical control, so I had to anticipate an extra 1/4th - 1/2 second earlier. Which is actually quite a long time when you're trying to start it exact!

 

[Al ears]

distortions of this type are often in the ears of the listener or are not down to the cartridge in the first instance. I'd put it down to the preamp.

Total bollocks.

I said I would. You, of course, are perfectly entitled to your own opinion.

Or was that the preamp you were referring to? ;-)

How on earth do you imagine a preamp can cause end of side sibilant distortion? Do tell.

PS, it can't, obviously.

Explain to me where, exactly, in the OPs initial post he mentions 'end of side' sibilance.

Sibilance per se, as he describes it, can possibly be down to a badly set-up cartridge. However, with the cartridge he is employing, it is not one of the failings I recall this cartridge having so my feeling is he should a: make sure his alignment is spot-on and b: try a different phono preamp. Simple as . If you have any better suggest feel free to provide them rather than simply bolloxing others attempts to solve said problem.

 

[Oldphrt]

Sibilance distortion can't be caused by a preamp. Not possible. Get a clue.

 

[Al ears]

Sibilance distortion can't be caused by a preamp. Not possible. Get a clue.

You are entitled to your opinions.

Your suggestion to change the stylus is also one the OP should consider although why changing one elliptical stylus for another should make the difference I am not sure but it's a cheap option.

 

[Oldphrt]

Sibilance distortion can't be caused by a preamp. Not possible. Get a clue.

You are entitled to your opinions.

Your suggestion to change the stylus is also one the OP should consider although why changing one elliptical stylus for another should make the difference I am not sure but it's a cheap option.

It's an option that will work, unlike your clueless ideas. The EX has a smaller minor radius which tracks the high frequencies excellently. I know because I've tried it.

How can a phono preamp produce sibilance distortion when any half decent one wiill have an overload margin of at least 100%? You can't answer.

 

[Al ears]

Sibilance distortion can't be caused by a preamp. Not possible. Get a clue.

You are entitled to your opinions.

Your suggestion to change the stylus is also one the OP should consider although why changing one elliptical stylus for another should make the difference I am not sure but it's a cheap option.

It's an option that will work, unlike your clueless ideas. The EX has a smaller minor radius which tracks the high frequencies excellently. I know because I've tried it.

How can a phono preamp produce sibilance distortion when any half decent one wiill have an overload margin of at least 100%? You can't answer.

I could but you are obviously the sort of merchant that wouldn't listen so I will not waste my time.

If your suggestion does work then it's a cheap solution for the OP and I hope he comes back to reveal whether it does.

 

[Oldphrt]

Sibilance distortion can't be caused by a preamp. Not possible. Get a clue.

You are entitled to your opinions.

Your suggestion to change the stylus is also one the OP should consider although why changing one elliptical stylus for another should make the difference I am not sure but it's a cheap option.

It's an option that will work, unlike your clueless ideas. The EX has a smaller minor radius which tracks the high frequencies excellently. I know because I've tried it.

How can a phono preamp produce sibilance distortion when any half decent one wiill have an overload margin of at least 100%? You can't answer.

I could but you are obviously the sort of merchant that wouldn't listen so I will not waste my time.

If your suggestion does work then it's a cheap solution for the OP and I hope he comes back to reveal whether it does.

I'm not a merchant of any sort and I'm careful to not pontificate on things I don't understand. I'm sure you must know things that I don't, so maybe stick to those?

 

[trevorok]

i bet the op prefers the sibulance to the sarcasm anyday mr bolloks *biggrin*

 

[Al ears]

i bet the op prefers the sibulance to the sarcasm anyday mr bolloks *biggrin*

I will concede Oldphrt has a point. My point was, and I don't have his experience with this particular cartridge, the only reliable way of reducing sibilance is to go to, at the very least, a fine-line type stylus. The move to another elliptical, whatever the dimensions, appears to me to be a waste of money. However, his suggestion is valid and would be a cheap way to try to alleviate the issue.

 

[Oldphrt]

Honestly, if you have an old AT95E lying around (many people do) just try the EX stylus (£27) and prepare to be amazed. It has lower surface noise too.

 

[trevorok]

I agree the needle is more likely to be at fault I had an at 95e and it had sibulance was to bright for me so I changed to a different cartridge but if the ex stylus works then we'll done for your comments

 

[TOPDIV]

i bet the op prefers the sibulance to the sarcasm anyday mr bolloks *biggrin*

The OP is grateful for all the advice given and also amused at the turn the thread took !

As mentioned earlier i have spent some time moving leads/wires and all but eliminating any feedback (except through headphones with the turntable 'on' but not playing,and the volume turned pretty high), absolutely leveling the turntable and rebalancing the arm,and then i went back to listening to a few records on the system running the turntable through the Denon AVR 4310's phono stage but without the 'firebottle'.

My feeling is that the sound from the records that seem well mastered is very good but does just lack a little bit of 'something' without the firebottle in the system (with the firebottle i think i mentioned previously that one record had me grinning and repeatedly replaying it, it was that much of a revelation). The sound while playing all my records is now definitely more than adequate and improved since i set everything up properly, so that's a big plus, but some records are still fairly flat and a bit uninteresting , certainly compared to a few of the LP's i bought specifically because they were recomended for their sonic abilites , so i'd like to try and 'lift' them a touch if that's possible ?

So first thing i've done is order a new upgraded power supply for the firebottle in the hope that i can then use it again in my system without the (hard to ignore) hum. Can't see a downside to this purchase.

I've read loads of suggestions on various turntable 'improvement' topics and obviously i have this sibilance issue that you've all tried to help with as well, so taking into account everything i've read,and to save my head exploding,i think i will upgrade my cartridge to something a bit better, without going mad (as my system clearly has limitations).

On top of this i am extremely keen to make this as simple for myself as possible, so i'm very tempted to purchase a cart that is already attached to a new headshell (i don't mind paying a bit more for this as i really really can't do fiddly wiring !). Given my system i obviously need a MM cart & preferably at least as high or higher output cart than my existing AT95 provides (just in case i can't reintegrate the firebottle pre amp and have to stick with the Denon's phono - meaning the amp vol needs ramping up very high compared to other inputs).

I'm looking at Audio Technica VM520EB /H (with headshell). Sticking with Audio Technica purely as i know no better and this exisitng A95 cartridge seems to match my system well enough i.e bass seems good but not too overpowering while the highs aren't too bright... if anything i'd say i need something to lift the vocals rather than instruments - if that's a 'thing' and/or indeed possible ?

I love the idea of simply swapping one headshell for another, rebalancing the arm and then i'm good to go....but is it as simple as that, and have i matched the right cartridge for the tonearm ? Am i missing something or for the £124 price tag does this seem a good, stupid or indifferent move ? Note: I ruled out doing a full upgrade of new tonearm and cartridge as i felt it probably would be better to buy a whole new system at some point (new t/t and proper amp), so for now a small and affordable upgrade like this is about as much as i want to do.

As always thanks for any advice (the simpler the better !)

 

[trevorok]

I'm not saying that u can't get a better audio technica cart but I did the same and went upgrade with audio technica bur I found it still to bright but that's not to say u will find this

 

[TOPDIV]

I'm not saying that u can't get a better audio technica cart but I did the same and went upgrade with audio technica bur I found it still to bright but that's not to say u will find this

I don't feel that my cart is 'bright' despite the sibilance - the sibilance is more of a 'sshhh' problem, with 's' words occassionally distorted to more of a smudged 'sh' sound, but not in a way that i'm cringing at the (what i'd call) brightness - certainly cymbals and instruments aren't too bright or unpleasant to my ears on my system. In fact if anything i wonder if it's not bright enough, but maybe as i deliberately matched the bassy Denon amp with bassy B & W speakers for AVR purposes,they are cancelling that brightness out ? - if thats possible ?

 

[trevorok]

Just out of interest have you got a detachable headshell and are you using a magnesium type because they sound a lot better than the s type shells where u get a lot of ring from them