Al ears
Well-known member
Oldphrt said:
I would take your own knowledge on this as good advice. Not being snoppy but its a long time ago I used cartridges at this price point
I would take your own knowledge on this as good advice. Not being snoppy but its a long time ago I used cartridges at this price point
trevorok said:
Yep, detachable headshell, in what i assumed was aluminium but could easily be magnesium. Second hand so i haven't changed anything but it doesn't look like any of the R200 arm headshells i've looked at on google images & no markings on it, it's surprisingly heavy though.
Might be worth looking on e bay for a second hand adc headshell allways worth having even as a spare gives a good sound better v most in my opinion
Gray
Well-known member
Oldphrt said:
My AT95 is still in use. I've got no problem with its sound as such, but I'm interested in your findings with the EX stylus Oldphrt.
Apart from the surface noise issue, what differences did you notice in the sound when compared to the original stylus?
Well, it tracks everything apart from the known untrackables (Joan Armatrading Save Me, anyone?) and keeps surface noise to a minimum, all at a bargain price. Far better than the Grado I was using, which was much more expensive and hums.
Gray
Well-known member
I know in this game, for any improvement, £27 is regarded as a bargain. It's still substantially more than the whole cartridge cost me though (and I've got an original spare stylus waiting to be used). Cheaper than a new cart of course so I'll bear it in mind. Thanks.
TOPDIV said:
You are trying to address a sibilance problem yet you are trading one elliptical stylus that is proving bothersome with sibilance for another elliptical stylus, (AT VM520EB)? I really think that you will be wasting your cash here and will quickly be back to square one. If you want the ease of a pre-mounted cart on a headshell then the only AT fine-line I can find is the VM540ML https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MEI1H8G/ref=psdc_1098245031_t5_B017EIH5NK but ease of mounting comes at a price!
N.B. There is also the other problem with Rega decks in that the tonearm needs to be shimmed in order to fit non-Rega carts for correct VTA. I believe Rega carts are 2mm shorter than regular carts.
You really need to think this through before spending any cash on a new cart as it may all be for nothing if you can't shim that tonearm correctly. The cheapest Rega fine-line is the Exact cartridge £194, without a headshell. Rega carts are not universally loved though.
Phono input from turntable is lower than other inputs on your amp hence the volume discrepency.
These are purely my own opinions so I could be talking out of my bottom, more experienced members may have a different take on the issue. Vinyl Engine is also an excellent place for advice.
Hi Doug,
Thanks for your input - you are right, my inital query on this thread concerned the sibilance but after listening to some earlier advice and almost starting from scratch again, i find the sibilance issue less pressing now, and i am more focused on improving the overall quality of the sound if possible (sibilance occurs noticeably on 3 or 4 LP's out of my curent 40). However with my very limited knowledge i was hoping i could perhaps change the cartridge,stylus and maybe the headshell and find myself with better overall sound + less sibilance. A win/win scenario (if you forget about the cost !)
I have put the VM540ml cartridge + headshell combo you suggested at the top of my wish list as i had been looking at it yesterday,but as it would cost as much as the turntable had cost me 2 months ago i was finding it hard to justify unless someone suggested it'd make a big difference...and now someone has.
Funnily enough i am a gambling man, and it's the Cheltenham Festival next week, with plenty of bets already placed. So a good week will see the VM540ML/H purchased (unless someone changes my mind again beforehand)
**Can you just clarify what you were saying about the tonearm length/shims for non Rega cartridge adjustment ? I've got the old S shaped R200 and as far as i can tell (after discussion with a salesman) the Audio Technica headshell/cartridge combos appear to be a straight swap without any messing around with shims ? Am i reading it wrongly or are you mistaking my old tonearm for one of the later Rega (straight) ones ? Apparently the cartridge will already be aligned on the headshell, leaving me just needing to fit it & balance the arm again....does that seem like i've been given the correct info ?
Thanks for your input - you are right, my inital query on this thread concerned the sibilance but after listening to some earlier advice and almost starting from scratch again, i find the sibilance issue less pressing now, and i am more focused on improving the overall quality of the sound if possible (sibilance occurs noticeably on 3 or 4 LP's out of my curent 40). However with my very limited knowledge i was hoping i could perhaps change the cartridge,stylus and maybe the headshell and find myself with better overall sound + less sibilance. A win/win scenario (if you forget about the cost !)
I have put the VM540ml cartridge + headshell combo you suggested at the top of my wish list as i had been looking at it yesterday,but as it would cost as much as the turntable had cost me 2 months ago i was finding it hard to justify unless someone suggested it'd make a big difference...and now someone has.
Funnily enough i am a gambling man, and it's the Cheltenham Festival next week, with plenty of bets already placed. So a good week will see the VM540ML/H purchased (unless someone changes my mind again beforehand)
**Can you just clarify what you were saying about the tonearm length/shims for non Rega cartridge adjustment ? I've got the old S shaped R200 and as far as i can tell (after discussion with a salesman) the Audio Technica headshell/cartridge combos appear to be a straight swap without any messing around with shims ? Am i reading it wrongly or are you mistaking my old tonearm for one of the later Rega (straight) ones ? Apparently the cartridge will already be aligned on the headshell, leaving me just needing to fit it & balance the arm again....does that seem like i've been given the correct info ?
I can see where you are coming from regarding price of a new cart vs turntable cost. I was looking at it very objectively as it's not my money I'm spending *biggrin*
I've never owned a Rega so am not familiar with their range so I could be talking out of my bottom. I'm a relative newcomer back to vinyl, (within the last 5 years), but like yourself spent an enormous amount of time researching turntables, carts and set-up. Others here or over at Vinyl Engine will undoubtedly have more experience than I have.
The salesman may well be correct regarding no shimming required. There is an easy way to check this out yourself, take your time and be careful with this: Put an LP on your turntable and place the tonearm in the playing position on the lead-in grooves on the outermost edge; get a good stable straight edge and place it on the LP parallel to the tonearm, (I have a triangle shaped ruler that is ideal for this job); eye-ball the tonearm and ruler from the right hand side. You are 'ideally' looking for the entire length of the tonearm to be completely parallel to the playing surface. As you currently have an AT fitted if it passes this test then you should be good to go with any cartidge you desire, except of course a Rega cart as they are shorter, but apparently they're pants anyway *smile*
I am available to assist if required but work awkward shifts, including weekends, but if you'd feel happier with another pair of eyes on this then please don't hesitate to ask. I'm about 100 miles away from you.
I've never owned a Rega so am not familiar with their range so I could be talking out of my bottom. I'm a relative newcomer back to vinyl, (within the last 5 years), but like yourself spent an enormous amount of time researching turntables, carts and set-up. Others here or over at Vinyl Engine will undoubtedly have more experience than I have.
The salesman may well be correct regarding no shimming required. There is an easy way to check this out yourself, take your time and be careful with this: Put an LP on your turntable and place the tonearm in the playing position on the lead-in grooves on the outermost edge; get a good stable straight edge and place it on the LP parallel to the tonearm, (I have a triangle shaped ruler that is ideal for this job); eye-ball the tonearm and ruler from the right hand side. You are 'ideally' looking for the entire length of the tonearm to be completely parallel to the playing surface. As you currently have an AT fitted if it passes this test then you should be good to go with any cartidge you desire, except of course a Rega cart as they are shorter, but apparently they're pants anyway *smile*
I am available to assist if required but work awkward shifts, including weekends, but if you'd feel happier with another pair of eyes on this then please don't hesitate to ask. I'm about 100 miles away from you.
Thanks Doug, really appreciate your input and offer to help - i will do the test you suggest (thanks for the clear explaination) & take things from there.
p.s I can't see any obvious signs of the arm being anything other than it's original height/length but i know this turntable had a previous owner who made several modifications so it's possible.
p.s I can't see any obvious signs of the arm being anything other than it's original height/length but i know this turntable had a previous owner who made several modifications so it's possible.
When I say entire length of the tonearm should be parallel to the playing surface I am referring to the visible tonearm only, from the bearing end to the inner shoulder of headshell collar. Hope this helps and come back with your results.
Hi Doug.
I've done the test and to my eye the arm is higher at the headshell end of the arm but it's not quite that simple. As the arm comes out of the counterweight (shiny silver) assembly, it is a seperate piece of metal and slightly different in colour. At the start of that part of the arm (coming from the counterweight end) the first 2 inches are straight, but then the arm gradually rises slightly (1.5mm ish perhaps) until about halfway,then stays level for an inch or two, then just drops off slightly (possibly 1mm or less) as it heads towards the headshell.
I cannot see any sort of spacer that has been added to adjust the height of the arm (having viewed many r200 arms that have been raised i can clearly see those spacers so pretty adamant mine isn't raised).
I've looked through a lot of forums regarding the r200 arm, and i came across one that suggested that having the r200 arm raising slightly at the headshell due to a different non Rega cartridge isn't detrimental (annoyingly i can't re find the link to it to show you, but pretty sure the quote was from someone high up at Rega).
Apart from my sibilance problem, the sound from my turntable is very pleasing, so i can't believe sound quality is suffering, but i wouldn't want to be damaging my (new) records ????
Going back to the sibilance issues, i have added the new power supply to the Firebottle phono amp (which i found out has mullard valves in it,for what thats worth!) and i can report that the sibilance seemed worse than when played through my Denon phono stage. Funnily enough it also felt like some bass was too bassy, which i hadn't noticed before, so i've cut the firebottle out of the set up again. I would add that i do like the sound from the firebottle with a certain type of music - predominently male vocaists with a stripped down vibe (the newer Neil Diamond or Johnny Cash recordings by Rick Rubin or a laid back Frank Sinatra LP 'In the wee small hours of the morning').
Just to confuse things more i found the source of the feedback issue (heard most through headphones before records start but also through speakers...when volume dialed to abovew 85%). turns out it's the tonearm so must be an earthing problem as it changes when touched.
Question to everyone is whether that is a normal thing (the tonearm hum) given that i'm new to turntables and it's only audible when music isn't playing and when turned to very high volume (or highish volume through headphones).
As stated previously, the overall sound is good, and almost always better/more involving than digital rips (even hi res stuff) so at the level i'm at (i.e AVR, £400 ish speaker, £300 ish headphones and £250 2nd hand turntable) i wonder whether i should just get on with enjoying it....but then you always wonder 'can i make it sound better'
I've done the test and to my eye the arm is higher at the headshell end of the arm but it's not quite that simple. As the arm comes out of the counterweight (shiny silver) assembly, it is a seperate piece of metal and slightly different in colour. At the start of that part of the arm (coming from the counterweight end) the first 2 inches are straight, but then the arm gradually rises slightly (1.5mm ish perhaps) until about halfway,then stays level for an inch or two, then just drops off slightly (possibly 1mm or less) as it heads towards the headshell.
I cannot see any sort of spacer that has been added to adjust the height of the arm (having viewed many r200 arms that have been raised i can clearly see those spacers so pretty adamant mine isn't raised).
I've looked through a lot of forums regarding the r200 arm, and i came across one that suggested that having the r200 arm raising slightly at the headshell due to a different non Rega cartridge isn't detrimental (annoyingly i can't re find the link to it to show you, but pretty sure the quote was from someone high up at Rega).
Apart from my sibilance problem, the sound from my turntable is very pleasing, so i can't believe sound quality is suffering, but i wouldn't want to be damaging my (new) records ????
Going back to the sibilance issues, i have added the new power supply to the Firebottle phono amp (which i found out has mullard valves in it,for what thats worth!) and i can report that the sibilance seemed worse than when played through my Denon phono stage. Funnily enough it also felt like some bass was too bassy, which i hadn't noticed before, so i've cut the firebottle out of the set up again. I would add that i do like the sound from the firebottle with a certain type of music - predominently male vocaists with a stripped down vibe (the newer Neil Diamond or Johnny Cash recordings by Rick Rubin or a laid back Frank Sinatra LP 'In the wee small hours of the morning').
Just to confuse things more i found the source of the feedback issue (heard most through headphones before records start but also through speakers...when volume dialed to abovew 85%). turns out it's the tonearm so must be an earthing problem as it changes when touched.
Question to everyone is whether that is a normal thing (the tonearm hum) given that i'm new to turntables and it's only audible when music isn't playing and when turned to very high volume (or highish volume through headphones).
As stated previously, the overall sound is good, and almost always better/more involving than digital rips (even hi res stuff) so at the level i'm at (i.e AVR, £400 ish speaker, £300 ish headphones and £250 2nd hand turntable) i wonder whether i should just get on with enjoying it....but then you always wonder 'can i make it sound better'
Sh*t this is getting more complex the closer you look at it *biggrin*
Just looked at some possible images of your tonearm, christ it's like a damned snake *smile*
As we guessed it's possibly sitting slightly low at the pivot end, don't suppose it's much to worry about, it would be worse if it was too high as the stylus would be acting like a rake, but just brings into question whether you are actually getting the best possible reproduction at its current angle. Personally I'd live with it as it stands and just enjoy the music for the moment.
Probably a good idea to keep the Firebottle out of the chain as it seems to be causing more problems than it is curing.
I've currently got a Pioneer PLX1000 sitting here surplus to my requirements, but it's not for sale. How about when the nicer weather arrives I take a little trip down your way with the Pioneer and a AT440mlb cart fitted for you to hear whether your deck is giving you all you need. The Pioneer is slightly better sounding than a Project Debut Carbon, (I owned both at the same time). I can also bring all my turntable set-up gear with me so we can dial-in your cartridge as good as possible.
If you need a character reference then one can be supplied, he is a member of this forum and very nice guy.
Just looked at some possible images of your tonearm, christ it's like a damned snake *smile*
As we guessed it's possibly sitting slightly low at the pivot end, don't suppose it's much to worry about, it would be worse if it was too high as the stylus would be acting like a rake, but just brings into question whether you are actually getting the best possible reproduction at its current angle. Personally I'd live with it as it stands and just enjoy the music for the moment.
Probably a good idea to keep the Firebottle out of the chain as it seems to be causing more problems than it is curing.
I've currently got a Pioneer PLX1000 sitting here surplus to my requirements, but it's not for sale. How about when the nicer weather arrives I take a little trip down your way with the Pioneer and a AT440mlb cart fitted for you to hear whether your deck is giving you all you need. The Pioneer is slightly better sounding than a Project Debut Carbon, (I owned both at the same time). I can also bring all my turntable set-up gear with me so we can dial-in your cartridge as good as possible.
If you need a character reference then one can be supplied, he is a member of this forum and very nice guy.
Thanks again Doug, very kind offer and if things don't change then i will take you up on it.
I mentioned in a previous post that i'm a gambling man and the Cheltenham festival was this week & that a few winners could potentially add funds to help improve my set up... well they have done, so there is now the possibility of upgrading things more significantly if needbe (e.g amp and/or turntable instead of just cartridge).
I will try my best not to jump the gun, purchase new kit and then come on here asking a million questions again when i've bought poorly matched items that don't compliment each other (i promise i'll demo stuff first) !
I mentioned in a previous post that i'm a gambling man and the Cheltenham festival was this week & that a few winners could potentially add funds to help improve my set up... well they have done, so there is now the possibility of upgrading things more significantly if needbe (e.g amp and/or turntable instead of just cartridge).
I will try my best not to jump the gun, purchase new kit and then come on here asking a million questions again when i've bought poorly matched items that don't compliment each other (i promise i'll demo stuff first) !
Hope some of your horses come in for you. I've never placed a bet in my life so wouldn't even know where to begin *smile*
If you get some spare cash then I'd look at replacing the turntable first, wouldn't even look at the amp as it's currently servicing multiple needs so keep the box count as it is. Beware of upgraditis, it is a severe condition that takes an incredible amount of willpower to stop, I'd put it on the same level as smoking, it's an addictive lust-based affliction.
Good luck and if you do upgrade then buy something that sounds good to your ears, that's all that really matters. Most of my gear has been bought blind but it all sounds good to me so I've been lucky. The motto of the forum is disregard reviews and audition, audition, audition.
If you get some spare cash then I'd look at replacing the turntable first, wouldn't even look at the amp as it's currently servicing multiple needs so keep the box count as it is. Beware of upgraditis, it is a severe condition that takes an incredible amount of willpower to stop, I'd put it on the same level as smoking, it's an addictive lust-based affliction.
Good luck and if you do upgrade then buy something that sounds good to your ears, that's all that really matters. Most of my gear has been bought blind but it all sounds good to me so I've been lucky. The motto of the forum is disregard reviews and audition, audition, audition.
Al ears
Well-known member
Your arm is an sme and I looked it up on the Internet it should be fitted with a light weight headshell about 6 to 8 grams this is why I said look for an adc lmg 1 headshell and I would then fit the 95 ex stylus and I feel this is bound to be an upgrade and hopefully resolve your sound issue hope this helps mally
trevorok said:
Sorry Trevorok, i forgot to thank you for your input - you will be pleased to know i actually did take your advice and purchased a ADC LMG1 headshell earlier this week. I have also found a fairly local 'vinyl' shop that has a selcetion of Audio technica carts,including the VM540ML which i still like the idea of, and the owner is happy to take my turntable and check the arm 'hum' i mentioned,make sure the arm height iis correct, then fit a new cartridge (or the old cartridge to a new headshell) calibrate & set it up for me for a very reasonable fee. He's also got a vinyl cleaning machine so i'm going o drop off a few records - including a couple of brand new lp's that seem to haemorrhage dust ! what's that all about !!!
pleased to here im sure your like the new cart much better upgrade and can only inprove your system i know u like the at sound so injoy *drinks* and ps the adc headshell is a great cheap upgrade i have 2 on both my decks knocked the originals for six*biggrin*
static proberbly put a dry cloth for the tumble dryers under your rubber mat that will stop it and clean up the sound a little*ROFL*
Update: Despite buying the new ADC LMG-1 headshell,with a view to adding a £250+ cartridge, i completely changed my mind (driven somewhat by extra funds but also due to plenty of good advice on here).
I went and demo'd a new Rega P3 with an Ortofon Blue cart and was blown away by the sound it produced from some of my albums (although obviously some of this was due to the £10k of kit it was fed through).
I bought the P3, and a pair of Shure 1840 open back headphones a few days beforehand, and although it's early days i cannot be more pleased with how things have changed. My amp seems to love the headphones (or at least they suit miles better than the B&W P7's did) so i'm getting absolutely no feedback whatsoever & i like their style (brighter than the P7's). The amp and it's phono stage also seem able to reproduce a large quantity of the detail coming from the P3, so much so that as it stands, i could happily listen to the system as it curently is without feeling 'i want more'....although obivously i'd take more if offered
I haven't been able to give the P3 a full workout using my speakers yet but given the massive jump in clarity i was hearing while listening through the headphones last night, i can't believe i'll have too much of a problem.
While not perfect, i think i've now got a sound that i feel happy with given the constraints of my overall set up and given that i live in a flat where i really can't crank up the volume unless the neighbours are out !
Thanks again for all the advice.
I went and demo'd a new Rega P3 with an Ortofon Blue cart and was blown away by the sound it produced from some of my albums (although obviously some of this was due to the £10k of kit it was fed through).
I bought the P3, and a pair of Shure 1840 open back headphones a few days beforehand, and although it's early days i cannot be more pleased with how things have changed. My amp seems to love the headphones (or at least they suit miles better than the B&W P7's did) so i'm getting absolutely no feedback whatsoever & i like their style (brighter than the P7's). The amp and it's phono stage also seem able to reproduce a large quantity of the detail coming from the P3, so much so that as it stands, i could happily listen to the system as it curently is without feeling 'i want more'....although obivously i'd take more if offered
I haven't been able to give the P3 a full workout using my speakers yet but given the massive jump in clarity i was hearing while listening through the headphones last night, i can't believe i'll have too much of a problem.
While not perfect, i think i've now got a sound that i feel happy with given the constraints of my overall set up and given that i live in a flat where i really can't crank up the volume unless the neighbours are out !
Thanks again for all the advice.
Glad your happy with your new additions I love my ortofons to nice warm sound and the new deck is a good buy plenty of happy years of listening great pleased for you mally
Hi Doug,
I havn't given it a full test with all the recordings that had the worst examples of sibilance - i was too busy enjoying a few new LP's - but i did play one piece which was probably the worst example and while there was still sibilance it had definitely diminished and seemed to have changed in appearance. Unfortunately i can't quite put it into words but everything feels tighter and has more clarity using this new TT & cartridge so the annoying 'Sssssss' or 'Sssshhhh' i used to experience is now at worst a 'Ss' or a Sh' so to speak !
Played a few LP's through the speakers earlier (a different type of music than i'd play through headphones, DAFT PUNK rather than Peter Gabriel Scratch My Back for example) and i could tell that on the most hectic of pieces the mid range got a little lost compared to when i demo'd the player (through the expensive naim phono stage/amp/pre amp & huge speakers) but the snap of a snare drum or twang/pluck of a string was still better than i could have expected given what i was hearing with the previous turntable and certainly it's more than good enough for me to really enjoy the music.
As i say, the type of music i tend to favour listening to at night via headphones seems to come across very well indeed and i don't feel i'm missing anything, perhaps the mearest hint that the very top end isn't handled quite as well as the everything else is, but that's being picky and given i've managed to keep the AVR and all it's inputs, i honestly couldn't grumble.
Now to sort out an add on eBay for a 'vintage' (code for old) turntable and quirky valve phono stage (code for no ones heard of a Firebottle) !!!
I havn't given it a full test with all the recordings that had the worst examples of sibilance - i was too busy enjoying a few new LP's - but i did play one piece which was probably the worst example and while there was still sibilance it had definitely diminished and seemed to have changed in appearance. Unfortunately i can't quite put it into words but everything feels tighter and has more clarity using this new TT & cartridge so the annoying 'Sssssss' or 'Sssshhhh' i used to experience is now at worst a 'Ss' or a Sh' so to speak !
Played a few LP's through the speakers earlier (a different type of music than i'd play through headphones, DAFT PUNK rather than Peter Gabriel Scratch My Back for example) and i could tell that on the most hectic of pieces the mid range got a little lost compared to when i demo'd the player (through the expensive naim phono stage/amp/pre amp & huge speakers) but the snap of a snare drum or twang/pluck of a string was still better than i could have expected given what i was hearing with the previous turntable and certainly it's more than good enough for me to really enjoy the music.
As i say, the type of music i tend to favour listening to at night via headphones seems to come across very well indeed and i don't feel i'm missing anything, perhaps the mearest hint that the very top end isn't handled quite as well as the everything else is, but that's being picky and given i've managed to keep the AVR and all it's inputs, i honestly couldn't grumble.
Now to sort out an add on eBay for a 'vintage' (code for old) turntable and quirky valve phono stage (code for no ones heard of a Firebottle) !!!
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