New turntable for a complete noob

[davedotco]

I still have a few bits 'n bobs from my days with a Dual CS-505 ...

Cartrdge alignment jig, Ortofon DN-168E cartridge, extra counterweight mass for heavier cartridges, shims and 1/2" mount adaptors. (I used an MP11 Boron.)

Indeed.

Those little cartridge adaptors were an important part of the sound signature of the CS505. They decoupled the cartridge from what was a very modest quality arm and gave the player a very slightly 'soft focus' nature that really helped the music come together as described above.

I know this as I (and others) tried all kinds of tricks and modifications to mount the cartridge more rigidly, which should of course be an improvement.

It wasn't of course, the decoupling was just what was needed, not that Dual designed it that way, they just wanted the cartridge fitting to be simple.

 

[Vladimir]

What cartridge would you guys recommend for a Techie? (I don't like those Concorde cartridges because they just look wrong and would bug the hell out of me)

Also why do record players need to be grounded the way they do? What's wrong with grounding them via the wall socket like other electrical appliances?

Ortofon Super OMs sound good. I never tried other than elliptical on the 1200mkII.

And you don't connect to the mains ground because it's not about safety but to eliminate hum and ground loops, so you wire it to the next component in line. I think this is why. Someone correct me if not.

 

[davedotco]

What cartridge would you guys recommend for a Techie? (I don't like those Concorde cartridges because they just look wrong and would bug the hell out of me)

Also why do record players need to be grounded the way they do? What's wrong with grounding them via the wall socket like other electrical appliances?

Grounding a record player is not straightforward, integrated players should be easier and mostly are, but any mods, something as simple as fitting a different cartridge, can cause issues.

Some record players do have earthed mains leads, but this just grounds the motor (most don't need it), you may need to ground the platter, to stop static build up. In addition the arm should be earthed for several reasons and in some models the case of the cartridge needs to be earthed too.

What is important is that each part that needs earthing is earthed just once through a defined signal path. Getting the earth path wrong can lead to all sorts of issues, mainly high levels of hum caused by 'ground loops' but there can be more subtle issues such as higher noise levels or static built up.

Generally speaking, if the motor needs earthing is should be done back to the mains, the arm and arm cable is usually via an earth lead to the amplifier chassis ground terminal. The phono cartridge is a pseudo balanced output with the - ve side of each chanel tied to the signal ground at the amplifier.

Most of the time it is that simple, use an earth on the mains if it is supplied, arm and cable to chassis ground with the earth lead, cartridge floats.

Until you come up against a cartridge with a screened body or an amplifier that does not separate chassis from signal ground or a player that earths itself through the screen on one channel of it's arm lead, or ...... well, you get my drift.

 

[Bradley747]

It wont stop at 400 GBP...you will get the tinker bug and who knows where that will lead.

I wouldnt bother (hides behind Sofa). I have an RP1 but more for the fact it looks cool in my flat and allowed me to play Lou Rawls LP that wasnt available on CD or Spotify.

Since then (6 months) I have spent circa 300 GBP on LPs and upgraded the cart, the belt, the mat and the phono amp twice...yet still use Spotify!!!!

all in I think ive invested circa 1200 GBP on the vinyl part of my set up alone!

Thats the same as a lovely new Cambridge CXN...;-)

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

What cartridge would you guys recommend for a Techie? (I don't like those Concorde cartridges because they just look wrong and would bug the hell out of me)

Most will say Nagaoka, and from what everyone has said on here about them, they must be decent, but I have a Ortofon Super OM20, and I think it's great. From what I have read on the net, nearly every one who owns one, loves it; it's easy to fit, tracks brilliantly, and has a good good sound.

They're getting harder to find, but there are sellers on eBay that have them in stock for a decent price, though most, if not all are in Germany. There's also the Super OM10, Super OM30 and Super OM40, but from what I read, the 20 is the sweetspot as far as price and performance are concerned, which is why I went for it.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-Pickup-Cartridge-OM-10-Super-free-worldwide-shipping-/131674111242?hash=item1ea8637d0a:g:AbcAAOSwv-NWamAg

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-Tonabnehmer-Cartridge-OM-20-Super-free-worldwide-shipping-/161927155433?hash=item25b39c4ee9:g:y0MAAOSwUdlWe77R

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-OM-30-Super-Moving-Magnet-Tonabnehmer-Cartridge-/390965557836?hash=item5b075cfa4c:g:A84AAOSwHnFVpO0R

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-OM-40-Super-Moving-Magnet-Tonabnehmer-Cartridge-/390965557865?hash=item5b075cfa69:g:VtQAAOSwu4BVpOvq

 

[steve_1979]

What cartridge would you guys recommend for a Techie? (I don't like those Concorde cartridges because they just look wrong and would bug the hell out of me)

Most will say Nagaoka, and from what everyone has said on here about them, they must be decent, but I have a Ortofon Super OM20, and I think it's great. From what I have read on the net, nearly every one who owns one, loves it; it's easy to fit, tracks brilliantly, and has a good good sound.

They're getting harder to find, but there are sellers on eBay that have them in stock for a decent price, though most, if not all are in Germany. There's also the Super OM10, Super OM30 and Super OM40, but from what I read, the 20 is the sweetspot as far as price and performance are concerned, which is why I went for it.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-Pickup-Cartridge-OM-10-Super-free-worldwide-shipping-/131674111242?hash=item1ea8637d0a:g:AbcAAOSwv-NWamAg

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-Tonabnehmer-Cartridge-OM-20-Super-free-worldwide-shipping-/161927155433?hash=item25b39c4ee9:g:y0MAAOSwUdlWe77R

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-OM-30-Super-Moving-Magnet-Tonabnehmer-Cartridge-/390965557836?hash=item5b075cfa4c:g:A84AAOSwHnFVpO0R

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-OM-40-Super-Moving-Magnet-Tonabnehmer-Cartridge-/390965557865?hash=item5b075cfa69:g:VtQAAOSwu4BVpOvq

Great thanks. That looks ideal.

 

[steve_1979]

What cartridge would you guys recommend for a Techie? (I don't like those Concorde cartridges because they just look wrong and would bug the hell out of me)

Also why do record players need to be grounded the way they do? What's wrong with grounding them via the wall socket like other electrical appliances?

Grounding a record player is not straightforward, integrated players should be easier and mostly are, but any mods, something as simple as fitting a different cartridge, can cause issues.

Some record players do have earthed mains leads, but this just grounds the motor (most don't need it), you may need to ground the platter, to stop static build up. In addition the arm should be earthed for several reasons and in some models the case of the cartridge needs to be earthed too.

What is important is that each part that needs earthing is earthed just once through a defined signal path. Getting the earth path wrong can lead to all sorts of issues, mainly high levels of hum caused by 'ground loops' but there can be more subtle issues such as higher noise levels or static built up.

Generally speaking, if the motor needs earthing is should be done back to the mains, the arm and arm cable is usually via an earth lead to the amplifier chassis ground terminal. The phono cartridge is a pseudo balanced output with the - ve side of each chanel tied to the signal ground at the amplifier.

Most of the time it is that simple, use an earth on the mains if it is supplied, arm and cable to chassis ground with the earth lead, cartridge floats.

Until you come up against a cartridge with a screened body or an amplifier that does not separate chassis from signal ground or a player that earths itself through the screen on one channel of it's arm lead, or ...... well, you get my drift.

Yes that makes sense.

 

[drummerman]

I can't help thinking this is a wind up. Something for the guys over at AVI forum to laugh at ... .

Maybe I'm wrong.

Aaaanyway ... I personally think you would be wasting money spending more than the usual DJ needles for the arm the 1210 comes with.

Replace the dire thing it comes with. Even something like a basic Rega will be a big improvement I have a feeling ... then think about the cartridge.

 

[Vladimir]

I can't help thinking this is a wind up. Something for the guys over at AVI forum to laugh at ... .

Maybe I'm wrong.

Aaaanyway ... I personally think you would be wasting money spending more than the usual DJ needles for the arm the 1210 comes with.

Replace the dire thing it comes with. Even something like a basic Rega will be a big improvement I have a feeling ... then think about the cartridge.

Your opinion seems to be colored by your beliefs DM. It's making you paranoid blondy.

The Technics arm is fine when set up right. If you spend on extra 'audiophile' arm you are no longer having a part time used TT for fun, you start being aspirational and eventually frustrated.

1210 with a flimsy Rega arm ewwwwwwwwwww!

 

[Vladimir]

This tempts me.

 

[steve_1979]

I can't help thinking this is a wind up. Something for the guys over at AVI forum to laugh at ... .

Record players are pretty popular over at the two men in a shed forum. Funnily enough there are a few regulars there with Technics and Regas.

Aaaanyway ... I personally think you would be wasting money spending more than the usual DJ needles for the arm the 1210 comes with.

Replace the dire thing it comes with. Even something like a basic Rega will be a big improvement I have a feeling ... then think about the cartridge.

The last time I had a proper hands on listen to some 1210's was about 20 years ago when my mate brought his over to my house so that we could try them with my dads hifi system (old McIntosh, NAD and Tannoy). They sounded exellent and were almost as clear as my dads record player despite them only having a DJ cartridge fitted (albeit one of the more expensive DJ cartridges).

 

[splasher]

I wouldnt bother (hides behind Sofa). I have an RP1 but more for the fact it looks cool in my flat and allowed me to play Lou Rawls LP that wasnt available on CD or Spotify.

Since then (6 months) I have spent circa 300 GBP on LPs and upgraded the cart, the belt, the mat and the phono amp twice...yet still use Spotify!!!!

For what it's worth, I agree with this. I own quite a bit of vinyl and play it quite often but most of the pleasure I get is the nostalgia of the physical ritual and the memories of buying a particular album in the first place. If you're not old enough to have either, I don't see the point. Without the magic of your youth, only the drawbacks remain.

all in I think ive invested circa 1200 GBP on the vinyl part of my set up alone!

Thats the same as a lovely new Cambridge CXN...;-)

To be precise, it's not the price of a CXN but of the better specified 851N. For anyone who doesn't already have a vinyl collection, isn't old enough to benefit from the nostalgia, is looking for a more analogue sound and is prepared to rebuy albums at around £17 a go, I'd recommend trying hi-res. All the convenience of digital music, about the same price as vinyl, no cleaning required, no surface noise but as close to analogue as my ears can tell.

 

[Vladimir]

Interesting review comparing the Technics to a belt driven deck.

 

[steve_1979]

Well that's me sold! I know a quality product when I see one and I've just ordered a new Crosley off the back of that review.

 

[drummerman]

Vlad, Rega arms are not flimsy, far from it. They have some of the stiffest tubes of any arms and very decent bearings.

Stiffness alone doesn't measure exceptional, there will always be vibrational modes higher up and this is where the venerable Rega's usually 'suffer' most, the headshell.

It has often been quoted as the reason for the 'zing' in rega's vinyl house sound.

However, there are aftermarket modifications available which lift (measured) performance to a level of the better SME's for less money. An other arm I recently trawled a detailed review and bench test of (2011 mag) which equals the above is a Haddock.

Project carbon arms actually don't measure that well compared to the better arms available, that is if less vibrations are the objective ... not the aim for everyone.

My Thorens arm is magnesium wrapped in carbon fibre. Bearings are sapphire. With no accellerometer to measure with I would take a guess that the weakest part of that arm is the headshell, especially the finger lift but some internal tube damping would probably aid too.

A silicon bath damping either the headshell (ala Townshend) or the arm tube (Oracle Paris) would be the ultimate means.

Next 'best thing' and far cheaper, is a foam pad between cartridge and headshell. This goes against most conventional wisdom which says the cartridge should be attached rigidly. - HifiWorld bench tested this mod with a Haddock and it made a huge measured difference, lowering vibrational modes across the board and dampening the headshell to levels only the best (measured) arms could.

Anyway, this all is tweakery which, after all, is one of the things the owner of a turntable can do to his/her's heart content thus changing the sonic signature.

 

[chebby]

An other arm I recently trawled a detailed review and bench test of (2011 mag) which equals the above is a Haddock.

Performance is off the scales.

 

[chebby]

Sounds like the voice of Cod.

 

[drummerman]

An other arm I recently trawled a detailed review and bench test of (2011 mag) which equals the above is a Haddock.

Performance is off the scales.

Hadcock.

No jokes about that one please, its Xmas.

 

[Vladimir]

Vlad, Rega arms are not flimsy, far from it. They have some of the stiffest tubes of any arms and very decent bearings.

Stiffness alone doesn't measure exceptional, there will always be vibrational modes higher up and this is where the venerable Rega's usually 'suffer' most, the headshell.

It has often been quoted as the reason for the 'zing' in rega's vinyl house sound.

However, there are aftermarket modifications available which lift (measured) performance to a level of the better SME's for less money. An other arm I recently trawled a detailed review and bench test of (2011 mag) which equals the above is a Haddock.

Project carbon arms actually don't measure that well compared to the better arms available, that is if less vibrations are the objective ... not the aim for everyone.

My Thorens arm is magnesium wrapped in carbon fibre. Bearings are sapphire. With no accellerometer to measure with I would take a guess that the weakest part of that arm is the headshell, especially the finger lift but some internal tube damping would probably aid too.

A silicon bath damping either the headshell (ala Townshend) or the arm tube (Oracle Paris) would be the ultimate means.

Next 'best thing' and far cheaper, is a foam pad between cartridge and headshell. This goes against most conventional wisdom which says the cartridge should be attached rigidly. - HifiWorld bench tested this mod with a Haddock and it made a huge measured difference, lowering vibrational modes across the board and dampening the headshell to levels only the best (measured) arms could.

Anyway, this all is tweakery which, after all, is one of the things the owner of a turntable can do to his/her's heart content thus changing the sonic signature.

But you can't use it to open your mate's beer or use it as tire iron on the road. No match for the Technics.

 

[steve_1979]

I bet you could stand on a Technics and watch the world spin round at exactly 33 and a third RPM.

 

[Vladimir]

I bet you could stand on a Technics and watch the world spin round at exactly 33 and a third RPM.

Still no match for Crosley quality professional precision microprocessor velocity tracking managing system.

 

[steve_1979]

I'd like to get a job as a DJ and turn up to a club with nothing but a Crosley under one arm just to see the looks on thier faces.

 

[drummerman]

I'd like to get a job as a DJ and turn up to a club with nothing but a Crosley under one arm just to see the looks on thier faces.

I think they would look at you strangely nowadays even if you'd arrive with a set of 1210's ...

 

[steve_1979]

 

[drummerman]

Yup. One of my local Bars has a DJ on Friday nights which uses just what you described.

I swear he uses only the laptop and hardly any other equipment.

Basically his arms/hands hardly move at all.

I'm kind of wondering if all is already mixed on his pc!