New turntable for a complete noob

[Al ears]

If I were you, I'd get a Technics SL1200.

Are you doing that Thompson thing again.

Where can a get a 1210 in good condition for £400?

He can't be, Thompson would at least get a turntable thread in the right subsection of the forum. ;-)

Regards the 1210 I have a mint one in my lock-up, only done 500 gigs with my friend the DJ.

There's a turntable section?

I'm afraid so and its quite lively and informative. God knows what it's doing there.

 

[steve_1979]

* my 15-year-old daughter and I. Go figure.

Cool.

 

[Vladimir]

Just connect a wire to the computer case or the amp case.

 

[matt49]

I have a Yamaha AV receiver which I use as a pre-amp into my speakers. Could I connect the ground to that?

Ah, yes, you could do that. Don't know if it has a grounding post, but connecting the TT's ground to its casework should be fine.

 

[Al ears]

Also can the Phono/USB version be plugged straight into my AVR without needing a phono amp?

Yes.

Thanks.

And what about the ground. What does that need to be connected to?

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debutcarbonphonousbdc&cat=turntables&lang=en

As you don't have a conventional amp (which is where you'd normally connect the TT's ground) this may require a workaround.

I have a Yamaha AV receiver which I use as a pre-amp into my speakers. Could I connect the ground to that?

Or could I connect the USB to my computer and use that as the ground even though I'll probably only be listening via the analoge RCA output?

The best ground is a three foot iron rod hammered into your front lawn, 'cors your rogered if you live in a flat, it'll knacker your window box.

 

[steve_1979]

Also can the Phono/USB version be plugged straight into my AVR without needing a phono amp?

Yes.

Thanks.

And what about the ground. What does that need to be connected to?

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debutcarbonphonousbdc&cat=turntables&lang=en

As you don't have a conventional amp (which is where you'd normally connect the TT's ground) this may require a workaround.

I have a Yamaha DSP-E800 receiver which I use as a pre-amp into my speakers. Could I connect the ground to that?

Or could I connect the USB to my computer and use that as the ground even though I'll probably only be listening via the analoge RCA output?

 

[steve_1979]

I have a Yamaha AV receiver which I use as a pre-amp into my speakers. Could I connect the ground to that?

Ah, yes, you could do that. Don't know if it has a grounding post, but connecting the TT's ground to its casework should be fine.

 

[steve_1979]

Just connect a wire to the computer case or the amp case.

I thought it might be. Ta.

 

[steve_1979]

How come record players aren't just grounded through the wall plug like everything else?

 

[Vladimir]

The bottom plate would usually have unpainted metal and screws. Use those to tighten a bit of wire.

 

[pyrrhon]

Also can the Phono/USB version be plugged straight into my AVR without needing a phono amp?

And what about the ground. What does that need to be connected to?

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debutcarbonphonousbdc&cat=turntables&lang=en

Hi steve, 3 Years ago I got a music hall 2.2. It's was connected to my nad 165bee preamp. I've been using it for about 10% of my listening. The essence is to be all analog so I think you need to forget about digital usb. Spotify and Tidal are way more convenient but sometimes it's great to play a vinyl and worth the trouble. I have upgraded the mat, cartridge, cabling (learning soldering in the process), and got a great phono preamp over those 3 years. Project offer some nice upgrade products and plays well too. But you can't skip the phono preamp, it's very important and a lot of fun too. Onbord phono preamp are convenient but not good enough. While everything else is gone the turntable stayed and it's strange considering how crazy I'm about upgrading that this part has satisfied me completely. Concerning the technics, I could nit live with the esthetics. Neither with the rega, they are too large! My black mmf 2.2 sits nicely over my naim and looks good too. A tube phono preamp will be there someday but I'm not in a hurry. If I'm happy I guess you'd be too.

 

[davedotco]

If I were you, I'd get a Technics SL1200.

Are you doing that Thompson thing again.

Where can a get a 1210 in good condition for £400?

No more Thompson simulations. It's getting Dave upset.

I owned two 1200s and loved them. Where I live they come up sometimes s/h and are 500-800 eur in good shape. This year 2 sold as a pair in immaculate condition for 1000 euros. So it is in your budget range. However, looking for one in good condition is like the hunt for the Red October. As with everything second hand you have to watch out so it doesn't bite you in the a$$. If you buy a new ProJect Debut Carbon, you just go to the shop and you buy it. Done.

It's just an idea. Older audiophiles prefer wood, belts, no subchassis, old school decks. To them the SL1200 is a DJ table for rap and techno and it makes baby audiophiles cry. That doesn't change the fact that it is superior table performance wise and has more heritage than any of the audiophile belt driven legends.

If you buy the Carbon, you are harmless like a eunuch neighbor. Audiophiles will pat you on the back, like "Aww so cute, he bought his first turntable. Time to save more money for a serious one in a few years." SL1200 owners wont even bother looking at you since you probably just don't know any better and bought into the hype.

It's a whole culture and I've seen some turntable wars that make cable wars look like puppies licking their noses. Whether you like it or not, your turntable purchase defines your status in the analogue jungle.

Complete and utter.

Though I am pleased to see that you are well aware of all the rubbish, revisionism and downright ignorance of the current crop of vinyl hipsters.

Unless of course I have been 'had'. Given the current trend that could be entirely possible.

 

[Al ears]

If I were you, I'd get a Technics SL1200.

Are you doing that Thompson thing again.

Where can a get a 1210 in good condition for £400?

No more Thompson simulations. It's getting Dave upset.

I owned two 1200s and loved them. Where I live they come up sometimes s/h and are 500-800 eur in good shape. This year 2 sold as a pair in immaculate condition for 1000 euros. So it is in your budget range. However, looking for one in good condition is like the hunt for the Red October. As with everything second hand you have to watch out so it doesn't bite you in the a$$. If you buy a new ProJect Debut Carbon, you just go to the shop and you buy it. Done.

It's just an idea. Older audiophiles prefer wood, belts, no subchassis, old school decks. To them the SL1200 is a DJ table for rap and techno and it makes baby audiophiles cry. That doesn't change the fact that it is superior table performance wise and has more heritage than any of the audiophile belt driven legends.

If you buy the Carbon, you are harmless like a eunuch neighbor. Audiophiles will pat you on the back, like "Aww so cute, he bought his first turntable. Time to save more money for a serious one in a few years." SL1200 owners wont even bother looking at you since you probably just don't know any better and bought into the hype.

It's a whole culture and I've seen some turntable wars that make cable wars look like puppies licking their noses. Whether you like it or not, your turntable purchase defines your status in the analogue jungle.

Complete and utter.

Though I am pleased to see that you are well aware of all the rubbish, revisionism and downright ignorance of the current crop of vinyl hipsters.

Unless of course I have been 'had'. Given the current trend that could be entirely possible.

You mean you haven't. All those years in the industry wasted?

 

[Vladimir]

If I were you, I'd get a Technics SL1200.

Are you doing that Thompson thing again.

Where can a get a 1210 in good condition for £400?

No more Thompson simulations. It's getting Dave upset.

I owned two 1200s and loved them. Where I live they come up sometimes s/h and are 500-800 eur in good shape. This year 2 sold as a pair in immaculate condition for 1000 euros. So it is in your budget range. However, looking for one in good condition is like the hunt for the Red October. As with everything second hand you have to watch out so it doesn't bite you in the a$$. If you buy a new ProJect Debut Carbon, you just go to the shop and you buy it. Done.

It's just an idea. Older audiophiles prefer wood, belts, no subchassis, old school decks. To them the SL1200 is a DJ table for rap and techno and it makes baby audiophiles cry. That doesn't change the fact that it is superior table performance wise and has more heritage than any of the audiophile belt driven legends.

If you buy the Carbon, you are harmless like a eunuch neighbor. Audiophiles will pat you on the back, like "Aww so cute, he bought his first turntable. Time to save more money for a serious one in a few years." SL1200 owners wont even bother looking at you since you probably just don't know any better and bought into the hype.

It's a whole culture and I've seen some turntable wars that make cable wars look like puppies licking their noses. Whether you like it or not, your turntable purchase defines your status in the analogue jungle.

Complete and utter.

Though I am pleased to see that you are well aware of all the rubbish, revisionism and downright ignorance of the current crop of vinyl hipsters.

Unless of course I have been 'had'. Given the current trend that could be entirely possible.

Please elaborate why it's rubbish. Which belt driven Thorens, Rega or Dual objectively beats a 1210?

 

[davedotco]

If I were you, I'd get a Technics SL1200.

Are you doing that Thompson thing again.

Where can a get a 1210 in good condition for £400?

No more Thompson simulations. It's getting Dave upset.

I owned two 1200s and loved them. Where I live they come up sometimes s/h and are 500-800 eur in good shape. This year 2 sold as a pair in immaculate condition for 1000 euros. So it is in your budget range. However, looking for one in good condition is like the hunt for the Red October. As with everything second hand you have to watch out so it doesn't bite you in the a$$. If you buy a new ProJect Debut Carbon, you just go to the shop and you buy it. Done.

It's just an idea. Older audiophiles prefer wood, belts, no subchassis, old school decks. To them the SL1200 is a DJ table for rap and techno and it makes baby audiophiles cry. That doesn't change the fact that it is superior table performance wise and has more heritage than any of the audiophile belt driven legends.

If you buy the Carbon, you are harmless like a eunuch neighbor. Audiophiles will pat you on the back, like "Aww so cute, he bought his first turntable. Time to save more money for a serious one in a few years." SL1200 owners wont even bother looking at you since you probably just don't know any better and bought into the hype.

It's a whole culture and I've seen some turntable wars that make cable wars look like puppies licking their noses. Whether you like it or not, your turntable purchase defines your status in the analogue jungle.

Complete and utter.

Though I am pleased to see that you are well aware of all the rubbish, revisionism and downright ignorance of the current crop of vinyl hipsters.

Unless of course I have been 'had'. Given the current trend that could be entirely possible.

You mean you haven't. All those years in the industry wasted?

Actually I was kind of had by those nice people from wiltshire until I caught then out.

It's a nice story, The Armageddon psu for the LP12 looked identical to the HiCap power supply, but unlike the HiCap, the Naim logo on the Armageddon did not light up when switched on.

We were given a long explanation of why this was, essentially it just sounded better without the illumination. A week or two later I had occasion to open up an Armageddon, which was in effect, a big transformer in a box, so of course standard 230v mains A/C in, Naim 230v A/C out. That wasn't the issue though, the thing that really 'got' me was that, being A/C in-out there was no rectification, so no D/C.

The NADI board that provides the illumination to the logo on all electronics requires D/C, no D/C no illumination. They could not be bothered to build a tiny D/C power supply to show when the unit was switched on.

 

[davedotco]

Please elaborate why it's rubbish. Which belt driven Thorens, Rega or Dual objectively beats a 1210?

I used to do this for a living, for years.

The original Dual 505 was better in pretty much all respects, later versions were less good and we stopped selling them.

The Planar 2 was always a bit of a lemon in my view, but the 3 was more articulate, open and rythmically precise then any direct drive.

We only sold the 'Scottish version' of the Thorens, but the entry level model comfortably outperformed all comers in it's day.

This really is not me saying this, this is the early 80s and I didn't have much of a clue, I just did the demonstrations, the customers made the choice, time after time ,after time, after time.

 

[Vladimir]

Please elaborate why it's rubbish. Which belt driven Thorens, Rega or Dual objectively beats a 1210?

I used to do this for a living, for years.

The original Dual 505 was better in pretty much all respects, later versions were less good and we stopped selling them.

The Planar 2 was always a bit of a lemon in my view, but the 3 was more articulate, open and rythmically precise then any direct drive.

We only sold the 'Scottish version' of the Thorens, but the entry level model comfortably outperformed all comers in it's day.

This really is not me saying this, this is the early 80s and I didn't have much of a clue, I just did the demonstrations, the customers made the choice, time after time ,after time, after time.

I meant objectively with measured wow, flutter, etc. But nevermind, i'm really an ignoramus on this topic.

Steve is thinking of buying a ProJect Debut Carbon. Any advice for him?

 

[davedotco]

Please elaborate why it's rubbish. Which belt driven Thorens, Rega or Dual objectively beats a 1210?

I used to do this for a living, for years.

The original Dual 505 was better in pretty much all respects, later versions were less good and we stopped selling them.

The Planar 2 was always a bit of a lemon in my view, but the 3 was more articulate, open and rythmically precise then any direct drive.

We only sold the 'Scottish version' of the Thorens, but the entry level model comfortably outperformed all comers in it's day.

This really is not me saying this, this is the early 80s and I didn't have much of a clue, I just did the demonstrations, the customers made the choice, time after time ,after time, after time.

I meant objectively with measured wow, flutter, etc. But nevermind, i'm really an ignoramus on this topic.

Steve is thinking of buying a ProJect Debut Carbon. Any advice for him?

That's actually difficult, meaningful measured spec is hard to come by.

The whys and wherefores of what make record players work is pretty complex, and much of it is counter-intuitive so you are not going to get a complete answer tonight.

A couple of basic thoughts, one of the biggest issues with record players is microphony/feedback. The suspension and isolation is critical and one of the primary reasons most vinyl systems sound poor.

Noise is another big issue, think in energy terms. Electrical energy is used to drive the motor, often measureable in watts. The output (from the cartridge) is minimal, milliwatts at the most, where does the rest of the energy go? I'll give you a clue, you can hear it!

What about arm/cartridge resonances, vital if you want your stylus to track cleanly, or bearing noise with 'energetic' cartriges, or warp noise draining power from your amplifier, the list is endless.

I was reading comments about earthing record players, do you earth the motor and tuntable separate from each other, or separate from the arm, what about the cartridge, does that need to be earthed. No one seems to know any of these things anymore.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm quite tempted to try out this black plastic spinny disc thing that I keep hearing is all the rage with the yoof of today. The Project Debut Carbon for about £400 looks like a good place to start for an idiot proof and easy to setup system.

My first logical thought is do I really want to waste £400 just so that I can rebuy some of my favourite albums in black plastic even though I already own the digital version? My heart says yes it will be nice but my head and to a lesser degree my wallet says no it'd be a waste of money and will sound worse than what I already use.

Any thoughts?

Having owned the Xpression since 2006 I can highly recommend Pro-ject. Since then it hasn't missed a beat - SQ is very good for the money. Improves with a better cartridge. Good all-rounders.

 

[Al ears]

If I were you, I'd get a Technics SL1200.

Are you doing that Thompson thing again.

Where can a get a 1210 in good condition for £400?

No more Thompson simulations. It's getting Dave upset.

I owned two 1200s and loved them. Where I live they come up sometimes s/h and are 500-800 eur in good shape. This year 2 sold as a pair in immaculate condition for 1000 euros. So it is in your budget range. However, looking for one in good condition is like the hunt for the Red October. As with everything second hand you have to watch out so it doesn't bite you in the a$$. If you buy a new ProJect Debut Carbon, you just go to the shop and you buy it. Done.

It's just an idea. Older audiophiles prefer wood, belts, no subchassis, old school decks. To them the SL1200 is a DJ table for rap and techno and it makes baby audiophiles cry. That doesn't change the fact that it is superior table performance wise and has more heritage than any of the audiophile belt driven legends.

If you buy the Carbon, you are harmless like a eunuch neighbor. Audiophiles will pat you on the back, like "Aww so cute, he bought his first turntable. Time to save more money for a serious one in a few years." SL1200 owners wont even bother looking at you since you probably just don't know any better and bought into the hype.

It's a whole culture and I've seen some turntable wars that make cable wars look like puppies licking their noses. Whether you like it or not, your turntable purchase defines your status in the analogue jungle.

Complete and utter.

Though I am pleased to see that you are well aware of all the rubbish, revisionism and downright ignorance of the current crop of vinyl hipsters.

Unless of course I have been 'had'. Given the current trend that could be entirely possible.

You mean you haven't. All those years in the industry wasted?

Actually I was kind of had by those nice people from wiltshire until I caught then out.

It's a nice story, The Armageddon psu for the LP12 looked identical to the HiCap power supply, but unlike the HiCap, the Naim logo on the Armageddon did not light up when switched on.

We were given a long explanation of why this was, essentially it just sounded better without the illumination. A week or two later I had occasion to open up an Armageddon, which was in effect, a big transformer in a box, so of course standard 230v mains A/C in, Naim 230v A/C out. That wasn't the issue though, the thing that really 'got' me was that, being A/C in-out there was no rectification, so no D/C.

The NADI board that provides the illumination to the logo on all electronics requires D/C, no D/C no illumination. They could not be bothered to build a tiny D/C power supply to show when the unit was switched on.

Those cheapskates. Thanks for sharing. 'Tis a pity opening the box actually voids the warranty for most units. But, what I'd we did eh?

Armageddon indeed, nice name.

"it's the end of the world as we know it...", reminds me of a song. ;-)

 

[steve_1979]

You know my latest suggestion. It's on PP's thread.

I've just had a proper look and yes that does look like the ideal option for what I'd be after. Not as pretty as the Project though.

https://www.avforums.com/review/audio-technica-at-lp5-turntable-review.12034

 

[plastic penguin]

You know my latest suggestion. It's on PP's thread.

I've just had a proper look and yes that does look like the ideal option for what I'd be after. Not as pretty as the Project though.

https://www.avforums.com/review/audio-technica-at-lp5-turntable-review.12034

Hope I don't sound presumptuous but once I've purchased a new TT (mid/end of Jan), let me know.

In excellent condition with original box and packaging... with a ClearAudio cartridge purchased back in July.

 

[drummerman]

You know my latest suggestion. It's on PP's thread.

I've just had a proper look and yes that does look like the ideal option for what I'd be after. Not as pretty as the Project though.

https://www.avforums.com/review/audio-technica-at-lp5-turntable-review.12034

I had a quick look and comparison of the AT turntable with the new Onkyo DD table CP1050.

They seem to use very similar parts, including arm. Most of it cheap chinese stuff. These direct drives have little in common with the original 1210 (or any other Technics DD's such as my SL's). The arms are of similar generic design, cheap. Not surprising I guess as both are of similar price and most of these (and other similar DJ clones) probably come out of the same factory.

Unfortunately I can't post pictures but if you google Onkyo CP1050 pictures you should see some which show the mechanism/electronics etc. ... a far cry from the Technics players of yore. I can't find internal pics of the AT but my guess is it will use the same parts as the Onkyo. Any difference will be in weight added to the base (probably).

To be honest, I'd go for the Carbon, whether Genie or otherwise or even an entry Rega, belt drive or not.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

You know my latest suggestion. It's on PP's thread.

I've just had a proper look and yes that does look like the ideal option for what I'd be after. Not as pretty as the Project though.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4#q62iWKuVc2xRRSVg.97

 

[lindsayt]

I used to do this for a living, for years.

The original Dual 505 was better in pretty much all respects, later versions were less good and we stopped selling them.

The Planar 2 was always a bit of a lemon in my view, but the 3 was more articulate, open and rythmically precise then any direct drive.

We only sold the 'Scottish version' of the Thorens, but the entry level model comfortably outperformed all comers in it's day.

This really is not me saying this, this is the early 80s and I didn't have much of a clue, I just did the demonstrations, the customers made the choice, time after time ,after time, after time.

In the early '80's the hi-fi magazines of the time had such influence over the market that most buyers, including myself were pre-sold on Dual / Rega / Linn before walking into the dealers for any demos.

It helped that in those demos, the Rega sounded better than the Dual and the Linn sounded better than Rega.

It also helped that no properly set up top of the range Japanese turntables were included in those demos. Nor properly set up top of the range British or European 1950's to 1960's idler designs.

In the 21st century there has been a huge revisionist backlash against the Rega and Linn. Helped by the internet forum and enthusiast bake-off culture.

Vladimir has been talking a lot of sense in recommending the Technics over the Pro-Ject. There are other super sounding DD and idler alternatives available for Steve's budget. It's entirely up to him where his priorities lie in the "sound quality for the money" vs "convenience plus gaurantee" trade-off.

Whatever he buys. for best sound, he should make sure he has an unworn tip on his stylus (distortion from worn tips makes vinyl sound really annoying). And he should make sure the TT is sited properly. Well away from speakers is best. A good rigid wallshelf is good. Or an original Sound Organisation signle shelf turntable table would be good and convenient for relatively little money.