KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[shkumar4963]

Clearly consumers are buying based on specs and the manufacturer that can show the best specs without legally lying wins.  So each supplier of audio equipments tries to either not show the data where it is not the best or conducts tests in such a way that makes the numbers look the best.  Now a suppler can not release some information to dealers and others to public through their marketing and advertising compaigns.  That will clearly show that they were lying on their marketing literature by their competitors.  So it is best to provide the same busllshit to their dealers as well and try to influence their reviewers to NOT measure stuff for which they have been less than honest and forthright.  Their advertising dollars give them less or more power towards these reviewers.  So if you see a lot of ads in the magazine like Stereophile an dothers, you know what thye need to do to keep that money flowing.

So even if we believe KEH is an engineerign driven company and wants to share as much information with their dealers and power users, thye can not.  Because they have to be consistent between their marketing and dealer information and more importatnly they also have to win the "spec war".

A few years back, amplfiers manufacturers were doing the same thing about their power ratings.  Thye used to report Music Power or other such terms to show that their amplifier is more powerful than the other.  Some of that is still going on.  But US has defined "average" or "RMS" power at 1khz that thye need to report at.  Yesterday, I saw a 7 channle amp that advertised 1400 watts of audio power but the maximum line current from 110V oultlet was only 5 amp.  Now how do you get 1400 watts of audio power from 550 watts of maximum electrical power?  Probably they measured each channel for 200W max power and since it had 7 channels reported 1400 W of audio power (one channel at a time) or may be worse.

May be these audio engineering societies can pitch in.  I see that Boston Audio Society is doing something about it.  Does anyone know of other forums or audio labs doing something similar?

?

(Please excuse my typos.  Typing on a smartphone with auto correct produces unexpected results)

Modern hi-fi consumers buy on spec to a degree, but mostly on reputation, primarily fueled by reviews and other internet chatter. they have little idea of the realities involved.

The one person who really does know what is really going on is the commited, experienced dealer. He handles the equipment everyday and actually does know what's what. Getting him to actually share that knowledge is often the difficult thing, he may know, that in the real world, highly regarded amplifier A is complete bobbins, but explaining, even demonstrating this fact to a prospective customer will not, usually, get him the sale, just an argument. Lack of trust in the dealer and an unswerving belief in 'reviews' invariably overides the realities that have been shown to be true by demonstration.

Much easier for the dealer to agree with the punter, point to the reviews and take the money. That is the reality of hi-fi retailing in todays market.

You are absolutely correct. Couldn't have said better myself.

But not all dealers are ethical either. Given a chance they will sell cheapest no name brand junk to unsuspecting customers at exorbitant prices. At least to customers who buy less frequently.

 

[davedotco]

Clearly consumers are buying based on specs and the manufacturer that can show the best specs without legally lying wins. So each supplier of audio equipments tries to either not show the data where it is not the best or conducts tests in such a way that makes the numbers look the best. Now a suppler can not release some information to dealers and others to public through their marketing and advertising compaigns. That will clearly show that they were lying on their marketing literature by their competitors. So it is best to provide the same busllshit to their dealers as well and try to influence their reviewers to NOT measure stuff for which they have been less than honest and forthright. Their advertising dollars give them less or more power towards these reviewers. So if you see a lot of ads in the magazine like Stereophile an dothers, you know what thye need to do to keep that money flowing.

So even if we believe KEH is an engineerign driven company and wants to share as much information with their dealers and power users, thye can not. Because they have to be consistent between their marketing and dealer information and more importatnly they also have to win the "spec war".

A few years back, amplfiers manufacturers were doing the same thing about their power ratings. Thye used to report Music Power or other such terms to show that their amplifier is more powerful than the other. Some of that is still going on. But US has defined "average" or "RMS" power at 1khz that thye need to report at. Yesterday, I saw a 7 channle amp that advertised 1400 watts of audio power but the maximum line current from 110V oultlet was only 5 amp. Now how do you get 1400 watts of audio power from 550 watts of maximum electrical power? Probably they measured each channel for 200W max power and since it had 7 channels reported 1400 W of audio power (one channel at a time) or may be worse.

May be these audio engineering societies can pitch in. I see that Boston Audio Society is doing something about it. Does anyone know of other forums or audio labs doing something similar?

(Please excuse my typos. Typing on a smartphone with auto correct produces unexpected results)

Modern hi-fi consumers buy on spec to a degree, but mostly on reputation, primarily fueled by reviews and other internet chatter. they have little idea of the realities involved.

The one person who really does know what is really going on is the commited, experienced dealer. He handles the equipment everyday and actually does know what's what. Getting him to actually share that knowledge is often the difficult thing, he may know, that in the real world, highly regarded amplifier A is complete bobbins, but explaining, even demonstrating this fact to a prospective customer will not, usually, get him the sale, just an argument. Lack of trust in the dealer and an unswerving belief in 'reviews' invariably overides the realities that have been shown to be true by demonstration.

Much easier for the dealer to agree with the punter, point to the reviews and take the money. That is the reality of hi-fi retailing in todays market.

You are absolutely correct. Couldn't have said better myself.

But not all dealers are ethical either. Given a chance they will sell cheapest no name brand junk to unsuspecting customers at exorbitant prices. At least to customers who buy less frequently.

In my experience, that is simply not true, in the uk market at least. I am talking 'proper' dealers here, not mass market junk dealers. Why would a dealer, independent mostly, buy in junk? The guy who sells the gear is usually responsible for buying it in the first place, he just would not and does not do that.

You, and many others, are simply wrong if you think that goes on with respect to 'proper' dealers.

This is a world apart from the truckloads of junk (often highly regarded junk) that turm up at branches of the mass market chains, that is a different world.

 

[Native_bon]

Clearly consumers are buying based on specs and the manufacturer that can show the best specs without legally lying wins. So each supplier of audio equipments tries to either not show the data where it is not the best or conducts tests in such a way that makes the numbers look the best. Now a suppler can not release some information to dealers and others to public through their marketing and advertising compaigns. That will clearly show that they were lying on their marketing literature by their competitors. So it is best to provide the same busllshit to their dealers as well and try to influence their reviewers to NOT measure stuff for which they have been less than honest and forthright. Their advertising dollars give them less or more power towards these reviewers. So if you see a lot of ads in the magazine like Stereophile an dothers, you know what thye need to do to keep that money flowing.

So even if we believe KEH is an engineerign driven company and wants to share as much information with their dealers and power users, thye can not. Because they have to be consistent between their marketing and dealer information and more importatnly they also have to win the "spec war".

A few years back, amplfiers manufacturers were doing the same thing about their power ratings. Thye used to report Music Power or other such terms to show that their amplifier is more powerful than the other. Some of that is still going on. But US has defined "average" or "RMS" power at 1khz that thye need to report at. Yesterday, I saw a 7 channle amp that advertised 1400 watts of audio power but the maximum line current from 110V oultlet was only 5 amp. Now how do you get 1400 watts of audio power from 550 watts of maximum electrical power? Probably they measured each channel for 200W max power and since it had 7 channels reported 1400 W of audio power (one channel at a time) or may be worse.

May be these audio engineering societies can pitch in. I see that Boston Audio Society is doing something about it. Does anyone know of other forums or audio labs doing something similar?

(Please excuse my typos. Typing on a smartphone with auto correct produces unexpected results)

Modern hi-fi consumers buy on spec to a degree, but mostly on reputation, primarily fueled by reviews and other internet chatter. they have little idea of the realities involved.

The one person who really does know what is really going on is the commited, experienced dealer. He handles the equipment everyday and actually does know what's what. Getting him to actually share that knowledge is often the difficult thing, he may know, that in the real world, highly regarded amplifier A is complete bobbins, but explaining, even demonstrating this fact to a prospective customer will not, usually, get him the sale, just an argument. Lack of trust in the dealer and an unswerving belief in 'reviews' invariably overides the realities that have been shown to be true by demonstration.

Much easier for the dealer to agree with the punter, point to the reviews and take the money. That is the reality of hi-fi retailing in todays market.

You are absolutely correct. Couldn't have said better myself.

But not all dealers are ethical either. Given a chance they will sell cheapest no name brand junk to unsuspecting customers at exorbitant prices. At least to customers who buy less frequently.

In my experience, that is simply not true, in the uk market at least. I am talking 'proper' dealers here, not mass market junk dealers. Why would a dealer, independent mostly, buy in junk? The guy who sells the gear is usually responsible for buying it in the first place, he just would not and does not do that.

You, and many others, are simply wrong if you think that goes on with respect to 'proper' dealers.

This is a world apart from the truckloads of junk (often highly regarded junk) that turm up at branches of the mass market chains, that is a different world.

I fing your statements very worrying. So you saying all so call good dealers dnt want to sell good reviewed products to make qiuck money. I would say thats as gullible as it gets. I have experienced so called good dealers trying to sell me trash.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You, and many others, are simply wrong if you think that goes on with respect to 'proper' dealers.

The joys of the internet

One person posts it, it spreads like wildfire. That then makes it truth...

 

[davedotco]

Clearly consumers are buying based on specs and the manufacturer that can show the best specs without legally lying wins. So each supplier of audio equipments tries to either not show the data where it is not the best or conducts tests in such a way that makes the numbers look the best. Now a suppler can not release some information to dealers and others to public through their marketing and advertising compaigns. That will clearly show that they were lying on their marketing literature by their competitors. So it is best to provide the same busllshit to their dealers as well and try to influence their reviewers to NOT measure stuff for which they have been less than honest and forthright. Their advertising dollars give them less or more power towards these reviewers. So if you see a lot of ads in the magazine like Stereophile an dothers, you know what thye need to do to keep that money flowing.

So even if we believe KEH is an engineerign driven company and wants to share as much information with their dealers and power users, thye can not. Because they have to be consistent between their marketing and dealer information and more importatnly they also have to win the "spec war".

A few years back, amplfiers manufacturers were doing the same thing about their power ratings. Thye used to report Music Power or other such terms to show that their amplifier is more powerful than the other. Some of that is still going on. But US has defined "average" or "RMS" power at 1khz that thye need to report at. Yesterday, I saw a 7 channle amp that advertised 1400 watts of audio power but the maximum line current from 110V oultlet was only 5 amp. Now how do you get 1400 watts of audio power from 550 watts of maximum electrical power? Probably they measured each channel for 200W max power and since it had 7 channels reported 1400 W of audio power (one channel at a time) or may be worse.

May be these audio engineering societies can pitch in. I see that Boston Audio Society is doing something about it. Does anyone know of other forums or audio labs doing something similar?

(Please excuse my typos. Typing on a smartphone with auto correct produces unexpected results)

Modern hi-fi consumers buy on spec to a degree, but mostly on reputation, primarily fueled by reviews and other internet chatter. they have little idea of the realities involved.

The one person who really does know what is really going on is the commited, experienced dealer. He handles the equipment everyday and actually does know what's what. Getting him to actually share that knowledge is often the difficult thing, he may know, that in the real world, highly regarded amplifier A is complete bobbins, but explaining, even demonstrating this fact to a prospective customer will not, usually, get him the sale, just an argument. Lack of trust in the dealer and an unswerving belief in 'reviews' invariably overides the realities that have been shown to be true by demonstration.

Much easier for the dealer to agree with the punter, point to the reviews and take the money. That is the reality of hi-fi retailing in todays market.

You are absolutely correct. Couldn't have said better myself.

But not all dealers are ethical either. Given a chance they will sell cheapest no name brand junk to unsuspecting customers at exorbitant prices. At least to customers who buy less frequently.

In my experience, that is simply not true, in the uk market at least. I am talking 'proper' dealers here, not mass market junk dealers. Why would a dealer, independent mostly, buy in junk? The guy who sells the gear is usually responsible for buying it in the first place, he just would not and does not do that.

You, and many others, are simply wrong if you think that goes on with respect to 'proper' dealers.

This is a world apart from the truckloads of junk (often highly regarded junk) that turm up at branches of the mass market chains, that is a different world.

I fing your statements very worrying. So you saying all so call good dealers dnt want to sell good reviewed products to make qiuck money. I would say thats as gullible as it gets. I have experienced so called good dealers trying to sell me trash.

I guess we have a different idea of what constitutes a good dealer.

I appreciate that my views are somewhat out of date having quit the industry about 10 years ago but if a dealer has 'trash' in his shop, as opposed to product you personally don't like, then that pretty much rules him out of contention as a good dealer.

Good dealers will deal with a range of suppliers who they believe builds consistently good product, they do not hop around following the latest highly reviewed product, they have a way of doing things (a philosophy, though that sounds pompous) that they have come to through expertese and experience. They are not going to throw that away for a quick profit.

I readily admit that some dealers have a fairly modest range of product, that may not suit some potential customers, in other cases the dealers way of doing things might be at odds with the prospective customer, but that is the way it is in small dealerships. As a punter, if the dealer does not suit you, go elsewhere.

 

[Vladimir]

I completely agree about the positive role a dealer should have. However, have in mind most of us have never seen 'the good dealer' in real life, it's just Bigfoot to us. Also classical hi-fi showrooms are diminishing and not much choice is left to go elsewhere, as you say. Elsewhere means online these days. The 'bad dealers' are even following us here to drag us back to their shops but we don't want to go there, the service sucks.

The Hi-Fi dealer profession has burned (in) too many bridges and I'm afraid the trust is gone. I've posted polls on several forums who do the forum members trust more as source of information, the magazines, other owners, the dealers or the manufacturer, and always the dealers came in last. From the Western world I think only in the USA there is some reminence of your heydays as a respected profession. No idea how it is in Asia but there is a Hi-Fi renaissance there. The Asian dealers even have enough bartering power to get their clients the 430mm wide Rega Apollo CDP.

 

[Native_bon]

Clearly consumers are buying based on specs and the manufacturer that can show the best specs without legally lying wins. So each supplier of audio equipments tries to either not show the data where it is not the best or conducts tests in such a way that makes the numbers look the best. Now a suppler can not release some information to dealers and others to public through their marketing and advertising compaigns. That will clearly show that they were lying on their marketing literature by their competitors. So it is best to provide the same busllshit to their dealers as well and try to influence their reviewers to NOT measure stuff for which they have been less than honest and forthright. Their advertising dollars give them less or more power towards these reviewers. So if you see a lot of ads in the magazine like Stereophile an dothers, you know what thye need to do to keep that money flowing.

So even if we believe KEH is an engineerign driven company and wants to share as much information with their dealers and power users, thye can not. Because they have to be consistent between their marketing and dealer information and more importatnly they also have to win the "spec war".

A few years back, amplfiers manufacturers were doing the same thing about their power ratings. Thye used to report Music Power or other such terms to show that their amplifier is more powerful than the other. Some of that is still going on. But US has defined "average" or "RMS" power at 1khz that thye need to report at. Yesterday, I saw a 7 channle amp that advertised 1400 watts of audio power but the maximum line current from 110V oultlet was only 5 amp. Now how do you get 1400 watts of audio power from 550 watts of maximum electrical power? Probably they measured each channel for 200W max power and since it had 7 channels reported 1400 W of audio power (one channel at a time) or may be worse.

May be these audio engineering societies can pitch in. I see that Boston Audio Society is doing something about it. Does anyone know of other forums or audio labs doing something similar?

(Please excuse my typos. Typing on a smartphone with auto correct produces unexpected results)

Modern hi-fi consumers buy on spec to a degree, but mostly on reputation, primarily fueled by reviews and other internet chatter. they have little idea of the realities involved.

The one person who really does know what is really going on is the commited, experienced dealer. He handles the equipment everyday and actually does know what's what. Getting him to actually share that knowledge is often the difficult thing, he may know, that in the real world, highly regarded amplifier A is complete bobbins, but explaining, even demonstrating this fact to a prospective customer will not, usually, get him the sale, just an argument. Lack of trust in the dealer and an unswerving belief in 'reviews' invariably overides the realities that have been shown to be true by demonstration.

Much easier for the dealer to agree with the punter, point to the reviews and take the money. That is the reality of hi-fi retailing in todays market.

You are absolutely correct. Couldn't have said better myself.

But not all dealers are ethical either. Given a chance they will sell cheapest no name brand junk to unsuspecting customers at exorbitant prices. At least to customers who buy less frequently.

In my experience, that is simply not true, in the uk market at least. I am talking 'proper' dealers here, not mass market junk dealers. Why would a dealer, independent mostly, buy in junk? The guy who sells the gear is usually responsible for buying it in the first place, he just would not and does not do that.

You, and many others, are simply wrong if you think that goes on with respect to 'proper' dealers.

This is a world apart from the truckloads of junk (often highly regarded junk) that turm up at branches of the mass market chains, that is a different world.

I fing your statements very worrying. So you saying all so call good dealers dnt want to sell good reviewed products to make qiuck money. I would say thats as gullible as it gets. I have experienced so called good dealers trying to sell me trash.

I guess we have a different idea of what constitutes a good dealer.

I appreciate that my views are somewhat out of date having quit the industry about 10 years ago but if a dealer has 'trash' in his shop, as opposed to product you personally don't like, then that pretty much rules him out of contention as a good dealer.

Good dealers will deal with a range of suppliers who they believe builds consistently good product, they do not hop around following the latest highly reviewed product, they have a way of doing things (a philosophy, though that sounds pompous) that they have come to through expertese and experience. They are not going to throw that away for a quick profit.

I readily admit that some dealers have a fairly modest range of product, that may not suit some potential customers, in other cases the dealers way of doing things might be at odds with the prospective customer, but that is the way it is in small dealerships. As a punter, if the dealer does not suit you, go elsewhere.

No disrespect dave, but your first few lines may be right. Your sounding like private school politicians who have lost touch of the real world.

 

[davedotco]

I completely agree about the positive role a dealer should have. However, have in mind most of us have never seen 'the good dealer' in real life, it's just Bigfoot to us. Also classical hi-fi showrooms are diminishing and not much choice is left to go elsewhere, as you say. Elsewhere means online these days. The 'bad dealers' are even following us here to drag us back to their shops but we don't want to go there, the service sucks.

The Hi-Fi dealer profession has burned (in) too many bridges and I'm afraid the trust is gone. I've posted polls on several forums who do the forum members trust more as source of information, the magazines, other owners, the dealers or the manufacturer, and always the dealers came in last. From the Western world I think only in the USA there is some reminence of your heydays as a respected profession. No idea how it is in Asia but there is a Hi-Fi renaissance there. The Asian dealers even have enough bartering power to get their clients the 430mm wide Rega Apollo CDP.

I think this works both ways, good dealers have been squeezed in all sorts of ways. Their expertese is largely disregarded by customers who, as has been intimated on here, 'don't trust them', in many cases a dealer will take the time and effort to set up systems, prove by demonstration that what he is saying is correct, but since what can be heard does not conform to the 'reviews' the customer gets 'confused' and walks.

For me, in the 90s with the increasing influence of reviews and the internet, the following scenario became commonplace.

A prospective customer asks about this months latest 'superstar' product, you explain that you have a different approach and suggest, then set up play an alternative that you know sounds great.

The customer agrees that it 'sounds really good' but is 'not sure' or 'confused' as it does not fit with the hype online or in the mags. Three months or so later he returns to the shop, the opening line is usually 'I don't think I'm getting the best from my system', so you politely ask why. He explains that he has bought the system 'recommended' by the mags three months ago and says it sounds harsh, or is boomy or whatever.

You say, yes, thats how that system sounds in the real world, that's what you bought, how can I help. It usually turns out that he expects you to sort out his system by selling him some £50 cables or something similar and it becomes the dealers fault that he can't actually do that.

In the end I just got bored with scenarios of this type and sold up, joined the marketing fraternity and simply made sure that the products I represented got good reviews. Some fun to be had, but pretty soulless on occasions too.

 

[davedotco]

No disrespect dave, but your first few lines may be right. Your sounding like private school politicians who have lost touch of the real world.

No problems, I know I live in the past rather too much but I feel blaming the dealers for the breakdown in trust is very one sided and just plain wrong (see my reply to Vlad above). For the vast majority of dealers and customers, hi-fi retailing is all about price, branding and marketing.

The dealers respond to what the majority of their customers want, which is well reviewed, well branded product at the best price, that's it. It doesn't even have to sound any good, right brands, good price, thats all that matters.

There are some contributers on here who have relationships with dealers that go way beyond this, but you have to remember that this is, in the industry as a whole, very rare indeed.

 

[plastic penguin]

Think you lot are overplaying the dealer. They are no different from any other retailer. The problem I have with people is when they visit a dealer they take their every word. By contrast, whenever a dealer tries to push a certain product I will challenge their decision, purely in the context of my system and what I'm looking for at that particular time.

FWIW I think Midland Dave and tricky Rick from Derby should have a mud wrestling challenge, over the best of 3 rounds. There'll be empty ATC and Kef boxes flying everywhere. Rick will initially get the upper hand by using some outmoded Rotel badges, but Dave will counter with floppy Kef promo balloons (weapons of mess destruction) *lol*. The winner gets to stay on here, while the loser gets a stern note from teacher....

Davedotco will act as (active) adjudicator. *mail1*

 

[Vladimir]

Rick is nowhere to be seen on the forum... *unknw*

 

[plastic penguin]

Rick is nowhere to be seen on the forum... *unknw*

Where would we be without your sense of humour?

 

[Vladimir]

Rick is nowhere to be seen on the forum... *unknw*

Where would we be without your sense of humour?

In this thread.

 

[davedotco]

Think you lot are overplaying the dealer. They are no different from any other retailer. The problem I have with people is when they visit a dealer they take their every word. By contrast, whenever a dealer tries to push a certain product I will challenge their decision, purely in the context of my system and what I'm looking for at that particular time.

FWIW I think Midland Dave and tricky Rick from Derby should have a mud wrestling challenge, over the best of 3 rounds. There'll be empty ATC and Kef boxes flying everywhere. Rick will initially get the upper hand by using some outmoded Rotel badges, but Dave will counter with floppy Kef promo balloons (weapons of mess destruction) *lol*. The winner gets to stay on here, while the loser gets a stern note from teacher....

Davedotco will act as (active) adjudicator. *mail1*

I disagree as indeed I would. Genuinely good dealers may be rarer than in other times but they still exist. Generally speaking they will not 'push' a particular product, they will demonstrate it's superiority, there's a big difference. The idea, in this day and age, that a customer believes everything he is told by a dealer is very old fashioned.

The problem comes when the customer questions the dealer expertise because it does not accord with reviews or conventional wisdom. I have got to that situation on occassions and the options are blunt, continue the argument with a customer who will quote chapter and verse from all the reviews, this is pointless or suggest that he finds another dealer more in tune with his, or more to the point, the reveiwers taste.

 

[JamesMellor]

"Genuinely good dealers may be rarer than in other times but they still exist."

Are you sure ddc ? , of the two I used to use one is dead the other folded up two shops not sure how the hell they made any money both where really one man bands , Bob Griffins door was always locked ( his demo room was in the basement so it had to be , but it kinda scares off customers ) and he had no problem with you spending all afternoon in there .

In the USA the dealers still seem to exist like they used to here , you walk in they talk with you they demo stuff off the bat they seem to remember gear before the last review and they dont really seem to care that you arent buying today its just fun

James

 

[plastic penguin]

Think you lot are overplaying the dealer. They are no different from any other retailer. The problem I have with people is when they visit a dealer they take their every word. By contrast, whenever a dealer tries to push a certain product I will challenge their decision, purely in the context of my system and what I'm looking for at that particular time.

FWIW I think Midland Dave and tricky Rick from Derby should have a mud wrestling challenge, over the best of 3 rounds. There'll be empty ATC and Kef boxes flying everywhere. Rick will initially get the upper hand by using some outmoded Rotel badges, but Dave will counter with floppy Kef promo balloons (weapons of mess destruction) *lol*. The winner gets to stay on here, while the loser gets a stern note from teacher....

Davedotco will act as (active) adjudicator. *mail1*

I disagree as indeed I would. Genuinely good dealers may be rarer than in other times but they still exist. Generally speaking they will not 'push' a particular product, they will demonstrate it's superiority, there's a big difference. The idea, in this day and age, that a customer believes everything he is told by a dealer is very old fashioned.

The problem comes when the customer questions the dealer expertise because it does not accord with reviews or conventional wisdom. I have got to that situation on occassions and the options are blunt, continue the argument with a customer who will quote chapter and verse from all the reviews, this is pointless or suggest that he finds another dealer more in tune with his, or more to the point, the reveiwers taste.

This is what gives dealers a bad name. (Why I think you're out of order when I've read posts, suggesting (paraphrasing) "some views are misleading...")

Why shouldn't we challenge your so-called expertise? I don't doubt for one moment of your knowledge, but how do you know what sound we like/dislike unless us mere mortals tell you? Do you know our room layout? No, you don't! And most retailers dem rooms have dreadful acoustics.

Because you're still involved in the industry it doesn't give you the Holy right to judge any of us for disagreeing with you. Think it's people like you who give retailers a crummy name, not us reprobates.

Remember this forum is still essentially for amateurs. The fact that you and other retailers participate is more a privilige than a right.

 

[Frank Harvey]

FWIW I think Midland Dave and tricky Rick from Derby should have a mud wrestling challenge, over the best of 3 rounds. There'll be empty ATC and Kef boxes flying everywhere. Rick will initially get the upper hand by using some outmoded Rotel badges, but Dave will counter with floppy Kef promo balloons (weapons of mess destruction) *lol*. The winner gets to stay on here, while the loser gets a stern note from teacher....

Davedotco will act as (active) adjudicator. *mail1*

I rarely agree with much of what you say, but that was funny

I think davedotco is talking a lot of sense here, as he should being an ex dealer and knowing the industry. This is one issue I find with forums - a dealer or ex dealer states things from their point of view, being completely honest and telling it like it is, but they get shot down for one reason or another. I've done it a couple of times in the past, but given up due to the flack it attracts.

 

[Native_bon]

FWIW I think Midland Dave and tricky Rick from Derby should have a mud wrestling challenge, over the best of 3 rounds. There'll be empty ATC and Kef boxes flying everywhere. Rick will initially get the upper hand by using some outmoded Rotel badges, but Dave will counter with floppy Kef promo balloons (weapons of mess destruction) *lol*. The winner gets to stay on here, while the loser gets a stern note from teacher....

Davedotco will act as (active) adjudicator. *mail1*

I rarely agree with much of what you say, but that was funny

I think davedotco is talking a lot of sense here, as he should being an ex dealer and knowing the industry. This is one issue I find with forums - a dealer or ex dealer states things from their point of view, being completely honest and telling it like it is, but they get shot down for one reason or another. I've done it a couple of times in the past, but given up due to the flack it attracts.

This is funny how people generalize statement. From my piont of view its like telling me I did not experience what I experienced. Fact is fact

 

[Frank Harvey]

This is funny how people generalize statement. From my piont of view its like telling me I did not experience what I experienced. Fact is fact

I am generalising, and I may not be referring to something specific that you have taken issue with, but in general, Dave is putting forward some good points here, and letting you guys know what it is like on the other side of the counter.

 

[plastic penguin]

FWIW I think Midland Dave and tricky Rick from Derby should have a mud wrestling challenge, over the best of 3 rounds. There'll be empty ATC and Kef boxes flying everywhere. Rick will initially get the upper hand by using some outmoded Rotel badges, but Dave will counter with floppy Kef promo balloons (weapons of mess destruction) *lol*. The winner gets to stay on here, while the loser gets a stern note from teacher....

Davedotco will act as (active) adjudicator. *mail1*

I rarely agree with much of what you say, but that was funny

I think davedotco is talking a lot of sense here, as he should being an ex dealer and knowing the industry. This is one issue I find with forums - a dealer or ex dealer states things from their point of view, being completely honest and telling it like it is, but they get shot down for one reason or another. I've done it a couple of times in the past, but given up due to the flack it attracts.

Whatever dealer I've come across, they always push a product I don't particularly like: Richer sounds always try and get a Cambridge Audio sale; SSAV is generally Monitor Audio and Audio-T was Naim or Focal (before they merged).

The two main dealers I deal with know me and acknowledge what I like and don't, depsite one of them being a Naim and Rega specialist.

Itotally understand why, but by the same token they should listen to the client, asuming, of course, the client know what they want.

If I was to come into your shop and you tried to push Kef over any other brand I would walk out. That's not a personal knock at you, but I don't want to be dictated to. I would have to decide for myself. Advice is one thing, but being told what is best is another, especially when you have no idea of my living room layout...

Some of this is, to some extent, the clients fault: They will take every word the dealer suggests and end up with a system of award winners that may not work for them.

Like any other retailer you guys play a big part in your local commuinity....

 

[davedotco]

FWIW I think Midland Dave and tricky Rick from Derby should have a mud wrestling challenge, over the best of 3 rounds. There'll be empty ATC and Kef boxes flying everywhere. Rick will initially get the upper hand by using some outmoded Rotel badges, but Dave will counter with floppy Kef promo balloons (weapons of mess destruction) *lol*. The winner gets to stay on here, while the loser gets a stern note from teacher....

Davedotco will act as (active) adjudicator. *mail1*

I rarely agree with much of what you say, but that was funny

I think davedotco is talking a lot of sense here, as he should being an ex dealer and knowing the industry. This is one issue I find with forums - a dealer or ex dealer states things from their point of view, being completely honest and telling it like it is, but they get shot down for one reason or another. I've done it a couple of times in the past, but given up due to the flack it attracts.

This is funny how people generalize statement. From my piont of view its like telling me I did not experience what I experienced. Fact is fact

I'm not having a go at anyone here, this is a users forum, which I now am, but I am talking as an ex dealer. I gave up my shop about 15 years ag and quit the industry totally about 5 years later, so in some respects perhaps a little out of date.

I no longer have any axe to grind, neither do I have any 'professional' reputation to protect, so I am happy to give views from the other 'other side'.

Clearly these views are mine and I am not going to name names but the simple reality is that there are some crap dealers out there, there are some good dealers that some people do not get on with and by the nature of this forum, that is what you are going to hear about.

There is however another side to this, hi-fi retail attracts more timewasters and 'tyre kickers' than any other, except perhaps the prestige car industry. Some 'customers' are absolutely shameless, they will take up hours of a dealers time, go through long, extended demonstrations then walk out and buy online at a lower price or try and hit you up for a discount that, effectively, makes your business non-viable.

Similarly some will just 'want to play hi-fi', absolutely no interest in buying anything, even if they are completely blown away. Dealers are realistic, they know that they need to be professional, talk to and cultivate potential customers, offer a proper level of service, but they also know they have to make some judgements as to who is and who is not serious and if they are the kind of customer they, as a dealer, want.

One of the truths of this is that, in time, the customers dictate what they want from the retail market and the result is that the specialist dealer is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. It is a basic tenet of this forum that prospective customers need to audition the equipment themselves, but the opportunities to do that in a meaningful way is becoming more and more difficult, particularly in the budget/mid-fi sector of the market.

 

[Vladimir]

@PP

I agree that they push a certain brand over another. However, this is normal in anything retail. As long as I'm getting the sound I'm after, I don't mind if the badge says KEF, CA, MA, Tannoy, Sony, JBL, Behringer, whatever.

@DDC

Oh man, the tyre kickers... Guy enters to checkout gear and he starts talking how bloody brilliant his own system is and the dealer is just a hostage of this ego monologue/lecture. No intention of buying, he just had an hour to waste between chores so he stopped by for a conversation. He maybe bought one thing at some point and came back in the shop with a friend who bought one more and that's it. He acts as a returning customer and he has to be put up with and he knows it.

It happened to me at least three times to wait with cash in my pocket for someone to end his ode to his valve monoblocks or Vienna Acoustic speakers and release the dealer to serve me. At least when it's a group of tyre kickers, they just occupy the gear and not the dealer. My nerves have been thinned drifting arround the shop and I just want to end the experience ASAP and go on with my day. Neither do I or the dealer want to discuss options and ideas. We feel drained.

This is why a good shop will have at least two employees available at all times.

 

[shkumar4963]

Davedotco: Very true and I completely agree. Situation is US is largely the same. Since it is not possible to go back to "good old days", we need to think about how in this situation consumers can make a good decision about choosing an audio gear that allows dealers to make a decent living.

Forums like this, magazine reviewers and manufacturers all can all help. These are low cost ways for helping a consumer make a decision, so that a dealer does not have to spend time educating them. If he spends less time, he can have better pricing and can compete more effectively with internet based sellers.

The current model is not sustainable. Internet based sellers are getting an unfair advantage at the cost of local dealers. We all know that not many people buy audio gears without auditioning them first. That is only possible at a local dealer. He spends time and energy educating the customer and then the customer turns around and buys the same gear on the web. That is just not fair.

One option is for manufacturers to enforce minimum selling price policy (like Bose used to do and still does). But is is hard to monitor and enforce.

The other is to have dealer only models and internet only models. So that people can not buy the same gear that they auditioned at a dealer from the net. This is also hard, as many local dealers themselves sell items on the net at much lower prices.

Another option is to have manufacturers pay for the cost of demoing their equipment at a dealer. So that he gets paid for the valuable service he is providing even if the customer then buys from the web. Bose used to do something like that a few years back where it would pay for building and staffing the audition rooms at major retailers.

Either way the current model is not sustainable. A new model need to be found so that local dealers and audition rooms can be saved.

 

[davedotco]

@PP

I agree that they push a certain brand over another. However, this is normal in anything retail. As long as I'm getting the sound I'm after, I don't mind if the badge says KEF, CA, MA, Tannoy, Sony, JBL, Behringer, whatever.

@DDC

Oh man, the tyre kickers... Guy enters to checkout gear and he starts talking how bloody brilliant his own system is and the dealer is just a hostage of this ego monologue/lecture. No intention of buying, he just had an hour to waste between chores so he stopped by for a conversation. He maybe bought one thing at some point and came back in the shop with a friend who bought one more and that's it. He acts as a returning customer and he has to be put up with and he knows it.

It happened to me at least three times to wait with cash in my pocket for someone to end his ode to his valve monoblocks or Vienna Acoustic speakers and release the dealer to serve me. At least when it's a group of tyre kickers, they just occupy the gear and not the dealer. My nerves have been thinned drifting arround the shop and I just want to end the experience ASAP and go on with my day. Neither do I or the dealer want to discuss options and ideas. We feel drained.

This is why a good shop will have at least two employees available at all times.

It is not so much that dealers push a particular product, more a reflection that a small dealer will have to select a limited range of hardware for obvious reasons, and quite reasonably do not wish to promote products they do not sell. It is also quite likely that a small inependent dealer will not stock much mainstream product as he can not buy in sufficient numbers to be price competitive with the chains.

Employees that have to be trained and payed. I know you are not being totally serious but a 'full service' hi-fi dealership is expensive to run. Put bluntly, if you want knowledgeable staff, good dem facilities, a decent range etc, it has to be paid for.

 

[shkumar4963]

After several emails with KEF in which they kept sending me marketing Bull ****, here is what i wrote to them in as clear an English as I can write:

Thanks Ricardo.

Yes, we both can agree that KEF is one of the most engineering and scientific driven companies and its products are state of the art. I did review the specs given but could not figure out what test conditions these measurements were taken. If you can share that, I would really appreciate that.

For example, the specs say "maximum output = 106 dB". What wave form was used for this measurement? Was it with IEC 268-5 or another standard waveform? also what was the observed distortion when speaker was played at this level? What was the power consumption when speaker was producing this sound output?

I am assuming that this measurement was taken with only one speaker, "on-axis" at 1 meter distance in an anechoic chamber and the measurement unit was and is dB SPL. If any of these assumptions are wrong, please do let me know.

I am sure these measurements have been taken by KEF. This will allow me to better understand and appreciate the marvelous speakers they are and also select an amp that is not "much too powerful" to what is needed to properly drive these speakers. Why to waste money in high power amp if not needed.

Thanks

Sensitivity (2.83V/1m)

85dB

Harmonic distortion
2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)

<0.4% 175Hz-20kHz

Maximum output

106dB

And here is the response I got from Ricardo of KEF:

Hello,

Please review the link that was provided and view the videos that are available. This information should cover your inquires.

Hope you enjoy the KEF Flagship Hi-Fi speakers

regards

http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/flagship_hi-fi_series/LS50/overview/

Clearly they have no intention of sharing any real data....