- Status
Vladimir said:
I reviewed the white paper. It gives a lot of information about how the speaker system was designed and its frequency response that I think are taken at low power levels. No inforation is given about the power handling capacity of the speakers. By power handling I mean the maximum "average" or "RMS" power that a speaker can take without excessive distortion (say about 1% or less) or failure. Somene suggested another hi-fi magazine that may have done those measurements. I will try to google that.
It is needed to better undertsand the speaker capabilities and also to select an amplifier that is not of "more power capacity than needed for this speaker"
BigH
Well-known member
shkumar4963 said:
Stereophile do a lots of tests, not sure it has what you want but worth a look.
shkumar4963 said:
How much power, at what SPL, for how long, at what THD. Would be great if hi-fi speakers came with those specs, which every manufacturer has but won't publish and reviewers won't measure.
Regarding the amp, more power and a robust PSU is better. Leave the speakers reach their own limitations before the amp reaches his. But without knowing what the limitations are (measurements), it's a shoot in the dark just by listening tests.
Vladimir said:
Not quite, it is well known that speakers can handle very high peak voltages without a problem, but stating that leads ignorant consumers to over drive them with inadequate amplifiers and blow them up.
Buy the best, most powerfull amplifier you can afford, drive the speakers as loud as you want, but back off the moment you hear any distress, do not use the volume control as an indicator of the power being delivered by the amplifier. Do that and you will be perfectly safe, irrespective of the power of your amplifier.
Don't buy the best, most powerful amplifier you can afford.
Buy the best amplifier you can find for your speakers and your tastes. Or buy the best amplifier you can find for your tastes and then buy speakers to match.
This may or may not be a high powered or expensive amplifier. It all depends.
Distortion measurement of speakers is the Lord Lucan of hi-fi measurements.
You can never find them. Even though they'd be interesting and useful.
Speakers are embarassingly bad when it comes to distortion. Especially in the bass at higher volumes.
Buy the best amplifier you can find for your speakers and your tastes. Or buy the best amplifier you can find for your tastes and then buy speakers to match.
This may or may not be a high powered or expensive amplifier. It all depends.
Distortion measurement of speakers is the Lord Lucan of hi-fi measurements.
You can never find them. Even though they'd be interesting and useful.
Speakers are embarassingly bad when it comes to distortion. Especially in the bass at higher volumes.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Buying the most powerful amplifier you can afford isn't necessarily the best advice. Yes, more power can bring various benefits, but a stable power supply and plenty of dynamic current is preferable to lots of watts. As mentioned, matching the amplifier with the speaker is very important, although more neutral amplifiers tend to work well with just about any speaker.
Theres been so many replys Im not even sure you'll read this. I understand your frustration and have to give you just another advice. I have invested in some spendors and great seperates and sources all chosen from hifi pro advice to get a warm sound and it is still bright! People here dont know as much as they pretend to. Please go to a store that has some m-audio m3-8 speakers and listen to them. I could argue for years but just try it. Everywhere I carry them around I get some wows and I can only confirm. Not to say that they are the last thing on earth but look at physics : 3 way, tri amplified, 200 watt per speaker, 8'inch woofers, a studio kind of balance and clever bass port plus equalizer and filters. Again I dont want to argue with hifi crowd, I just want you to try it. Forget about cables and amp tweaks the speakers you have dont suit your taste, those Im talking to you will please you right away without any consideration for music type, source, stands, room, position or wathever. You just dont like the current hifi trend sound, admit it and look elsewhere, you ll be musch happier. And by the way, nobody will ever frown at your speakers!
Not quite, it is well known that speakers can handle very high peak voltages without a problem, but stating that leads ignorant consumers to over drive them with inadequate amplifiers and blow them up.
I never believed in holding engineering information back for the fear of someone will misuse it. But you may be right and this may be the reason. But I doubt it.
Besides, would you agree that speakers start distorting at "very high voltage" So even if there is not thermal failure it is good to know the voltage limit when speaker distortion starts. And there are several well established engineering methods to just measure that. IEC standard number 268-5 is one of them but there are several others.
Buy the best, most powerfull amplifier you can afford, drive the speakers as loud as you want, but back off the moment you hear any distress,
This is probably a good advise but you would agree that buying an amplifier that has much too much power does not help anyone except the amplifier manufacturer. And if one wants to spend more money on an amplifier, it would be best spent on areas other than the amplifier power above a certain limit. What I am trying to find out in "what is that certain upper limit" for LS50? Also knowking the maximum SPL this speaker can produce without distortion will help people decide if this is the right speaker for their use. For example, the LS50 specs say "maximum output = 106 dB". But does not mention what wave form was used for this measurement? Was it with IEC 268-5 or another standard waveform? also what was the observed distortion when speaker was played at this level? What was the power consumption when speaker was producing this sound output? I am assuming that this measurement was taken with only one speaker, "on-axis" at 1 meter distance in an anechoic chamber and the measurement unit was and is dB SPL. But the specs does not define any of them. So it is difficult to use this spec (106 dB) properly.
do not use the volume control as an indicator of the power being delivered by the amplifier. Do that and you will be perfectly safe, irrespective of the power of your amplifier.
I agree with this completely.
Listening test is good but we can all benefit from additinal engineering information if properly provided by both amplifier and speaker manufacturers.
I never believed in holding engineering information back for the fear of someone will misuse it. But you may be right and this may be the reason. But I doubt it.
Besides, would you agree that speakers start distorting at "very high voltage" So even if there is not thermal failure it is good to know the voltage limit when speaker distortion starts. And there are several well established engineering methods to just measure that. IEC standard number 268-5 is one of them but there are several others.
Buy the best, most powerfull amplifier you can afford, drive the speakers as loud as you want, but back off the moment you hear any distress,
This is probably a good advise but you would agree that buying an amplifier that has much too much power does not help anyone except the amplifier manufacturer. And if one wants to spend more money on an amplifier, it would be best spent on areas other than the amplifier power above a certain limit. What I am trying to find out in "what is that certain upper limit" for LS50? Also knowking the maximum SPL this speaker can produce without distortion will help people decide if this is the right speaker for their use. For example, the LS50 specs say "maximum output = 106 dB". But does not mention what wave form was used for this measurement? Was it with IEC 268-5 or another standard waveform? also what was the observed distortion when speaker was played at this level? What was the power consumption when speaker was producing this sound output? I am assuming that this measurement was taken with only one speaker, "on-axis" at 1 meter distance in an anechoic chamber and the measurement unit was and is dB SPL. But the specs does not define any of them. So it is difficult to use this spec (106 dB) properly.
do not use the volume control as an indicator of the power being delivered by the amplifier. Do that and you will be perfectly safe, irrespective of the power of your amplifier.
I agree with this completely.
Listening test is good but we can all benefit from additinal engineering information if properly provided by both amplifier and speaker manufacturers.
I checked with stereophile mesurements. I could not find a measurement that was related to speaker capacity for LS50, but I will check again. I may be able to infer this information from other measurements that they have taken. I would imagine that this kind of measurement should be as important as frequency response for a speaker. As it defines the upper limit of the performance for people who want to play their speakers in a large room or at a high volume. Thye do measure speaker sensitivity. But we all know that it is not linear and not applicable to any voltage level. I wonder why Stereophile does not measure this for speakers and related mesaurements for amplifier. That way one can match the two and then do listening test to confirm the choice. Some amplifiers are voltage limited, some are current limited. Or to put it more accurately, in some situations and for some speakers and for some music passsages, an amplifier will be current limited while in others it may be voltage limited. Knowing exact limits of of an amplifier will help select a more approprite amplifier for the use.
David@FrankHarvey said:
The best most powerful amplifier.
By definition, that will have all the attributes you mention will it not?
shkumar4963 said:
In order.
The reasons speaker manufacturers do not quote power 'capacity' are many, one is that there is no standard way of doing so that will be understood by the consumer, who is, by and large, ignorant of engineering matters.
The level of understanding is usually of the order of "my amp is 50 watts, my speakers are 100 watts so I can turn my amp to full volume". That is the reality.
Playback systems are generally more stable and safer with amps of higher power, yes you can overdrive any spealer system with pure undistorted power if you have enough of it and play very loud, but that very unlikely to happen in real world situations.
Similarly in the real world, buying overpowered amplifiers is unlikely on cost grounds alone, yes you could spend too much but you would be making some pretty perverse decisions if that was the case. Ie in the case of the LS50, it will comfortably handle the full undistorted output of pretty much any amplifier an £800 speaker is likely to be paired with. Again it is possible to think of scenarios where this is not the case but you would have to be doing something pretty silly for this to be an issue.
Whilst I agree that more and more accurate information would be good, the capacity of the consumer to miss-understand, sometimes willfully so, may make that counter productive, particularly in the contentious issues around power ratings.
Native_bon
Well-known member
Most wise advice I have heard for a long time.pyrrhon said:
Edit: I mentioned the same thing when I first went back to listen to HIFI after not upgraded for a long time. The current promoted HIFI sound is just pants to say the least.
pyrrhon said:
Except for this whole thread that portrays the OP as an ignorant for not prostrating in front of the KEF golden calf.
davedotco said:
In the computer consumer industry the equivalent term for the obnoxious elitist audiophile (such as ourselves here) is power user. Everyone else is just a consumer. Yes, ignorant, unaware and most importantly disinterested. Just give them the 5 star rating and he/she is good to go.
However, the biggest cash spender is the power user. The biggest motormouth online giving free advertising is the power user. All consumers read what the power user has to say about the product at question. Why bloody not publish detailed measurments, specs, photos of the building process, 3D models, EVERYTHING, on the manufacturer website for us, the power users to obtain?
Don't even talk to me about Hi-Fi shows. I began to dislike going to hi-fi shows because they are useless for learning anything of any substance. It's just interest groups and sheep twerking their wool to be sheered but mind you, at a discount. Auditioning gear? Uterly horrid hotel acoustics. It's more of a social event than anything else therefore I would appreciate if manufacturers who are proud of their acomplished designs published their data for me to read, possibly buy, and certanly advertise for free on a public display.
However, what comes to mind is all animals are not equal here. Among the power users we have the forever bitter, criticising, low spending objectivists and the eager, easily pleased, self toxicated irrational subjectivists with wads of dentist/lawyer/anynontechnicalprofession ca$h. Who do you want to empower as a customer base to boost your profits?
Thanks. I am beginning to feel that there is a collusion between reviewers like stereophile, what HiFi etc and speaker manufacturers. Most of these measurements are easy to make. Engineering standards have been defined but they continue to provide subjective assessments and talk about how they "felt" about an audio equipment. Do others feel so. There used to be a publication "audio critic" that used to test all equipments but has gone out of business probably due to lack of advertising dollars.Vladimir said:
Do others feel the same? Should we use these forums to publish our own test results? Arw any forums doing that? What about Audio Engineering Society?
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
The problem will be consistency. Manufacturer's test facilities will differ, and measurements taken can't really be compared like for like because of this. Yes, an independent body could perform these tests and publish its findings to compare in a like for like environment, but you're then relying on their test venue and equipment to be 100% accurate. Some methods of testing really don't bear any relation to the performance of products in a normal environment, so while they might be handy in some respects, they're meaningless in others.
As has been said though, most people don't understand these measurements, and have no idea what they mean or what effect they will have at the end of the audio chain.
As has been said though, most people don't understand these measurements, and have no idea what they mean or what effect they will have at the end of the audio chain.
Vladimir said:
Perhaps hi-fi manufacturers should give no information at all?
Seriously, consumers would then have to go to dealers, see how things work and buy something that demonstrably does whatever the customers requirements are, in some cases demonstrably getting as close as the budget and other factors allow.
The number of times I have been 'required' to fix burnt out speakers under warrantee does not bear thinking about, as I said earlier, the old 'speakers are 100watt, amp is only 50watt........' argument over and over again.
I see what you are saying. But think about it. There are at least 500 amp manufacturers and probably more speaker manufacturers each with dozens of products. Any dealer can only store only a handful of them and would try to push them on unsuspecting consumers. On top of that each consumer has to do do hours of listening tests and even then would not find out about speaker and amp limits.
To me it sounds like going back to Stine ages. The reason we have test labs and review magazines and audio engineering clubs to avoid just that.
By the way, you mentioned that fix speakers under warranty? Do you work for one of the manufacturers? You will have access to a lot nite information than any one of us. By the way boston audio society www.bostonaudiosociety.com routinely does engineering tests on audio equipments. Does anyone know if they have done any test of ls50?
To me it sounds like going back to Stine ages. The reason we have test labs and review magazines and audio engineering clubs to avoid just that.
By the way, you mentioned that fix speakers under warranty? Do you work for one of the manufacturers? You will have access to a lot nite information than any one of us. By the way boston audio society www.bostonaudiosociety.com routinely does engineering tests on audio equipments. Does anyone know if they have done any test of ls50?
Edit: I mentioned the same thing when I first went back to listen to HIFI after not upgraded for a long time. The current promoted HIFI sound is just pants to say the least.
I am not aware of this expression. What do you mean by "pants"? Please explain.
I had looked at self powered speakers but had a few questions. I am hoping that you can answer them.
1. How do you do digital room correction?
2. How do you do remote control?
3. How do you match speakers with sub?
4. We still have to connect these speakers to cd players etc. So they can not be independent and wireless. Then why no connect them to amps as well.
5. Why 6 separate amps for two speakers are better and more cost effective time then one amp with much better quality. Is it really cost effective to produce six amps wit the same quality as one?
6. I find them to be best for running independently in mono or even in stereo mode with streaming music. Is that there main value proposition?
7. Why no major review magazines, engineering societies or forums have reviewed them yet? May be it is just a matter of time. But would like to know your take.
Thanks and I will wait for your response.
I am not aware of this expression. What do you mean by "pants"? Please explain.
I had looked at self powered speakers but had a few questions. I am hoping that you can answer them.
1. How do you do digital room correction?
2. How do you do remote control?
3. How do you match speakers with sub?
4. We still have to connect these speakers to cd players etc. So they can not be independent and wireless. Then why no connect them to amps as well.
5. Why 6 separate amps for two speakers are better and more cost effective time then one amp with much better quality. Is it really cost effective to produce six amps wit the same quality as one?
6. I find them to be best for running independently in mono or even in stereo mode with streaming music. Is that there main value proposition?
7. Why no major review magazines, engineering societies or forums have reviewed them yet? May be it is just a matter of time. But would like to know your take.
Thanks and I will wait for your response.
Why not supply the dealers with detailed info?
When I bought my work desktop PC I ordered it by phone. I told the dealer what I do in my line of work, what my needs are and few quirky no-no's and preferences and I didn't even told him a budget. He made me a configuration that perfectly meets my needs and it was spot on with my spending limit. The dealer can quote you performance specs from graphic cards from 1994 without hesitation, he is a power user himself. The staff are all PC nutts with machines costing more than their cars. I feel relieved they had to do the thinking for me.
My point is, I don't mind if the hi-fi dealers are the ultimate power users and me the ignorant consumer. Great, I want that. But their knowledgebase is equally limited to any guy with access to the internet. When I asked a dealer to get me certain specs from my amplifier manufacturer, none were available. What is on the website in PDF for the consumer, that is it for the dealer. When a review comes up, writers don't even copy the specification correctly from the manual, which is a sure sign no actual reviewing happens a lot of the time, just ghostwriting.
When I bought my work desktop PC I ordered it by phone. I told the dealer what I do in my line of work, what my needs are and few quirky no-no's and preferences and I didn't even told him a budget. He made me a configuration that perfectly meets my needs and it was spot on with my spending limit. The dealer can quote you performance specs from graphic cards from 1994 without hesitation, he is a power user himself. The staff are all PC nutts with machines costing more than their cars. I feel relieved they had to do the thinking for me.
My point is, I don't mind if the hi-fi dealers are the ultimate power users and me the ignorant consumer. Great, I want that. But their knowledgebase is equally limited to any guy with access to the internet. When I asked a dealer to get me certain specs from my amplifier manufacturer, none were available. What is on the website in PDF for the consumer, that is it for the dealer. When a review comes up, writers don't even copy the specification correctly from the manual, which is a sure sign no actual reviewing happens a lot of the time, just ghostwriting.
Vladimir said:
The issue here is the competance and experience of the dealer. If any punter tells me what his real requirements are, I can tell you what system he needs, the personal preferences of an inexperienced customer are far more likely to make bad choices rather than good ones.
There are a few 'issues' though, firstly the requirements need to be accurate, if you are a heavy metal freak or a basshead, I need to know that. Similarly if the 'bling' factor or specific brand names are important I need to know that too. A good dealer will stock a range of equipment that will cover most (not all, some customers really do not want hi-fi at all) realistic requirements, and in the real world will will present the customer with the system, allowing perhaps the choice of two or three speakers to fine tune the setup.
Unfortunately in the modern market, though this will very likely be what the customer needs, it can be a long way from what he wants. If the customer 'buys into' the process then the dealer can show him the reasons why the system is correct for what he needs, but if he does not, much more likely these days, he is wasting his time.
Clearly consumers are buying based on specs and the manufacturer that can show the best specs without legally lying wins. So each supplier of audio equipments tries to either not show the data where it is not the best or conducts tests in such a way that makes the numbers look the best. Now a suppler can not release some information to dealers and others to public through their marketing and advertising compaigns. That will clearly show that they were lying on their marketing literature by their competitors. So it is best to provide the same busllshit to their dealers as well and try to influence their reviewers to NOT measure stuff for which they have been less than honest and forthright. Their advertising dollars give them less or more power towards these reviewers. So if you see a lot of ads in the magazine like Stereophile an dothers, you know what thye need to do to keep that money flowing.
So even if we believe KEH is an engineerign driven company and wants to share as much information with their dealers and power users, thye can not. Because they have to be consistent between their marketing and dealer information and more importatnly they also have to win the "spec war".
A few years back, amplfiers manufacturers were doing the same thing about their power ratings. Thye used to report Music Power or other such terms to show that their amplifier is more powerful than the other. Some of that is still going on. But US has defined "average" or "RMS" power at 1khz that thye need to report at. Yesterday, I saw a 7 channle amp that advertised 1400 watts of audio power but the maximum line current from 110V oultlet was only 5 amp. Now how do you get 1400 watts of audio power from 550 watts of maximum electrical power? Probably they measured each channel for 200W max power and since it had 7 channels reported 1400 W of audio power (one channel at a time) or may be worse.
May be these audio engineering societies can pitch in. I see that Boston Audio Society is doing something about it. Does anyone know of other forums or audio labs doing something similar?
(Please excuse my typos. Typing on a smartphone with auto correct produces unexpected results)
So even if we believe KEH is an engineerign driven company and wants to share as much information with their dealers and power users, thye can not. Because they have to be consistent between their marketing and dealer information and more importatnly they also have to win the "spec war".
A few years back, amplfiers manufacturers were doing the same thing about their power ratings. Thye used to report Music Power or other such terms to show that their amplifier is more powerful than the other. Some of that is still going on. But US has defined "average" or "RMS" power at 1khz that thye need to report at. Yesterday, I saw a 7 channle amp that advertised 1400 watts of audio power but the maximum line current from 110V oultlet was only 5 amp. Now how do you get 1400 watts of audio power from 550 watts of maximum electrical power? Probably they measured each channel for 200W max power and since it had 7 channels reported 1400 W of audio power (one channel at a time) or may be worse.
May be these audio engineering societies can pitch in. I see that Boston Audio Society is doing something about it. Does anyone know of other forums or audio labs doing something similar?
(Please excuse my typos. Typing on a smartphone with auto correct produces unexpected results)
shkumar4963 said:
Modern hi-fi consumers buy on spec to a degree, but mostly on reputation, primarily fueled by reviews and other internet chatter. they have little idea of the realities involved.
The one person who really does know what is really going on is the commited, experienced dealer. He handles the equipment everyday and actually does know what's what. Getting him to actually share that knowledge is often the difficult thing, he may know, that in the real world, highly regarded amplifier A is complete bobbins, but explaining, even demonstrating this fact to a prospective customer will not, usually, get him the sale, just an argument. Lack of trust in the dealer and an unswerving belief in 'reviews' invariably overides the realities that have been shown to be true by demonstration.
Much easier for the dealer to agree with the punter, point to the reviews and take the money. That is the reality of hi-fi retailing in todays market.
- Status
Similar threads
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram