KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[Vladimir]

We currently have no proper KEF dealership here and we only get to see them when someone orders a pair and doesn't like the sound so they are stuck in the shop as a demo. B&W, MA and Wharfedale firmly hold our market with higher dealer premiums and every other brand is stuffed in the corners without consistent stock available.

 

[plastic penguin]

If you have troubles filling a room, you don't just upgrade the amp, you must go with bigger speakers first. And since I completely agree with Esra about the risks of getting subs right, I'll stick to floorstanders as a recommendation. I suggested subs because I thought you are firm at keeping the KEFs.

In all fairness that isn't new or revlationary. My room is borderline, but originally purchased the RS6s because Mrs. P was insistant about not having a sub, and as I don't play at room-shaking levels, that wasn't an issue

There is also another valid theory: Once you add the stands to the bookshelf speaker, the size between a standmounted speaker and a floorstander takes up the same amount of space as a floorstander, so unless you buy a tower of over 100cmthere's little difference between a bookshelf and tower. IMHO, it is how your amp controls a speaker is far more important.

This isn't just a theory, I've owned both in the same room. .

 

[Esra]

Everything said,but not from all *clapping* *wink*

 

[plastic penguin]

There is another very valid theory on why compact floorstanders are a better compromise: They are generally (not always the case) easier to place. That IMHO, is because the floorstander has a big enough box area to have a front port.

 

[Vladimir]

The footprint between modern slim towering floorstanders and well footed quality standmounts is equal. However the amount of acoustic energy between them is certanly not the same. 4x8'' drivers vs. 2x5'' creates a significant difference in the amount of air pushed. Even a pair of KEF LS50 + 2x8" subs won't catch up to a pair of JBL LS80s (4x8" + 2xMF and 2xHF CDs). Subs augment but cannot truly give the fullrange sound a properly designed floorstander can. And finally theres the issue with timbre matching the monitors with the added sub of different brand or model series.

 

[plastic penguin]

The footprint between modern slim towering floorstanders and well footed quality standmounts is equal. However the amount of acoustic energy between them is certanly not the same. 4x8'' drivers vs. 2x5'' creates a significant difference in the amount of air pushed. Even a pair of KEF LS50 + 2x8" subs won't catch up to a pair of JBL LS80s (4x8" + 2xMF and 2xHF CDs). Subs augment but cannot truly give the fullrange sound a properly designed floorstander can.

Where are you getting 4x 8" drivers from? You're talking about humongous floorstanders, whereas the RS6s have 1 x 6" bass and 1 x 6" mid/bass and a domed tweeter.

Floostanders such as Totem Arros, PMC GB1s, entry-level Kudos only have a 1 mid/bass and one tweeter. They are, IMHO, easier to site than the LS50s.

Look! no spec sheet in site. *blum3*

 

[Vladimir]

Where are you getting 4x 8" drivers from? You're talking about humongous floorstanders, whereas the RS6s have 1 x 6" bass and 1 x 6" mid/bass and a domed tweeter.

Floostanders such as Totem Arros, PMC GB1s, entry-level Kudos only have a 1 mid/bass and one tweeter. They are, IMHO, easier to site than the LS50s.

Look! no spec sheet in site. *blum3*

I'm talking specifically for shkumar's case. I recommended the JBL LS80. You won't find big boys from UK manufacturers like you will find in the North American ones. Again, the difference in living space comes into play.

Similar sized MAs would cost double than the JBLs and not produce same amount of SPL.

 

[Esra]

The footprint between modern slim towering floorstanders and well footed quality standmounts is equal. However the amount of acoustic energy between them is certanly not the same. 4x8'' drivers vs. 2x5'' creates a significant difference in the amount of air pushed. Even a pair of KEF LS50 + 2x8" subs won't catch up to a pair of JBL LS80s (4x8" + 2xMF and 2xHF CDs). Subs augment but cannot truly give the fullrange sound a properly designed floorstander can. And finally theres the issue with timbre matching the monitors with the added sub of different brand or model series.

That´s why I went with R900 in a similar big room and it seems obviously the better choice than LS50+subs.I got them for a good deal,so it was ideal for me as I like the actual Kef sound and other possible speakers would have been more expensive for me at that moment incl. LS50+subs.The R900 are also big boys.

I can post a pic if you like to see.

 

[Vladimir]

Those are certanly nice and will sound great in a larger room. But they don't come quite on par with the 12kg heavier JBLs for robust SPL, power handling and drama. But definitely should be auditioned because not everyone likes listening to titanium compression drivers through horns. The coaxial drivers might yield more acceptable results. + Their price is right. Comparing the KEF R900 to the less brutish and more refined PSB Synchrony Ones is more sensible I reckon.

 

[plastic penguin]

Where are you getting 4x 8" drivers from? You're talking about humongous floorstanders, whereas the RS6s have 1 x 6" bass and 1 x 6" mid/bass and a domed tweeter.

Floostanders such as Totem Arros, PMC GB1s, entry-level Kudos only have a 1 mid/bass and one tweeter. They are, IMHO, easier to site than the LS50s.

Look! no spec sheet in site. *blum3*

I'm talking specifically for shkumar's case. I recommended the JBL LS80. You won't find big boys from UK manufacturers like you will find in the North American ones. Again, the difference in living space comes into play.

Similar sized MAs would cost double than the JBLs and not produce same amount of SPL.

You'll go to any extent to prove a point. I'm talking about floorstanders in general, and not everyone want ulgy mutts like the JBLs.

If you had read my previous posts you'll notice I mention the word "generally", and that doesn't mean it's carved from stone, but the FACT you shouldn't dismiss floorstanders just because you Google up the specs...

If you have a medium sized room there's no reason why towers can't work, as long as you have a quality amp.

My TB2is have bigger drivers than the RS6s, and although don't exhibit the extreme bass extension, they do punch harder than the fabled MAs.

The TB2is are snoggable, almost lick the lovely boxes. But if you had the greatest looking female model fitted with Douglas Bader's legs, that's how I feel about my TB2is.

 

[Vladimir]

You'll go to any extent to prove a point. I'm talking about floorstanders in general, and not everyone want ulgy mutts like the JBLs.

If you had read my previous posts you'll notice I mention the word "generally", and that doesn't mean it's carved from stone, but the FACT you shouldn't dismiss floorstanders just because you Google up the specs...

If you have a medium sized room there's no reason why towers can't work, as long as you have a quality amp.

My TB2is have bigger drivers than the RS6s, and although don't exhibit the extreme bass extension, they do punch harder than the fabled MAs.

The TB2is are snoggable, almost lick the lovely boxes. But if you had the greatest looking female model fitted with Douglas Bader's legs, that's how I feel about my TB2is.

Easy there tiger.

There are towers and towers. This is why I posted this photo (I hope you're not alergic to photos as well as tech talk).

European floorstanders today are petite compared to the standards of 20 years ago. Not all floorstanders pass as 'big boy' speakers.

As for comparable size and performance give this review a look. MA GX300 next to the JBL LS80. The 'American' is certanly not as pretty but it is more robust and we are here in the quest of large SPL for a very large room, with clean sound (thus the horns). As soon as we start talking European models, the prices double and we have to justify it with factor X for sound quality because god forbid we talked quantified 'specs'. Everyone drops into a tantrum.

I've seen both speakers in real life and I would choose the cheaper JBL without hesitation.

 

[CnoEvil]

You might consider small twin subs (which will be faster but not go as deep as bigger subs), like the Paradigm Seismic 110 / Velodyne SPL 800 ultra / BK XLS200 or 400...or spend the money on one bigger better sub, from the likes of JL Audio (Fathom) or Velodyne DD Series, which will give more scale.

....but for the money that costs, you could go for more expensive Standmounts with bigger scale, like the Dynaudio Confidence C1 (or Kef R300). Nb. IME. The better the speakers, the better the amp has to be to control them...and the better the source has to be (so it's deficiencies aren't highlighted).

Keep the system in balance...or things can get out of kilter very quickly (and very expensively).

 

[shkumar4963]

Even though the room is large, it does not have room for floor standers. Even though they take the same space, they do LOOK bulky. For now they are off the consideration....

So I can look at other standmounters if they will be better (like R300 or others). My dealer also informed me that it would cost me $200 to retun LS50 now. So unless these are clearly wrong, I would stay with them.

Also, at home audition is not an option either. But I can audition at the dealer all I want.

I am using your collective insights to reduce the number of speakers, amp, subs that I need to audition myself. The final decision will be based on my auditioning of the system in the best setup my dealer can provide and not based on any published reviews.

Allison CD7 are good speakers and LS50 are definitely better in in mids and highs. I heard LS50s with high end amps (>$10,000) and the sound does improve with increasing amp quality but sonic differences are not that much, at least to my ears and in my dealer set up. Allisons are 25 years old and I was hoping that the technology had changed more than what I can hear right now with LS50. Vladimir: Hype may be a part of it. Overall I like the crispness of sound from LS50 when listening alone (70% of the time) but they lack room filling sound when enjoying with friends (30% of the time).

One other point. My budget is not fixed. I can spend upto $10K, but not on hype or reviews. I need to hear a substantial difference. And if I can not hear that difference, may be bacause my ears are not that sensitive, I will not.

Once again thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

 

[Vladimir]

My impressions are similar, the full sound was a bit lacking for me. I liked the B&W CM5 better.

 

[Esra]

Thanks Esra and Vladimir for excellent suggestions. R700/900 will be out of my price target. Also floor standers may look too big in the sitting section of this big room. In short I have a big room behind my small 18 wide and 10 ft deep sitting area. To be withing my target and ignoring aesthetics I can go to Q line of KEF (upto $2k). Or stay with LS50 and add one sub for another $700. Or two subs for $350 each.

What would you recommend? I am also looking to buy a more powerful amplifier. Marantz PM6005 $800 or NAD C350 used for $200.

Allison CD7 are good speakers and LS50 are definitely better in in mids and highs. I heard LS50s with high end amps (>$10,000) and the sound does improve with increasing amp quality but sonic differences are not that much, at least to my ears and in my dealer set up. Allisons are 25 years old and I was hoping that the technology had changed more than what I can hear right now with LS50.

One other point. My budget is not fixed. I can spend upto $10K, but not on hype or reviews. I need to hear a substantial difference. And if I can not hear that difference, may be bacause my ears are not that sensitive, I will not.

Once again thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

Sorry shkumar,on one hand you say R700 is not in your budget and in an other post you imply a budget of 10K.Then you say you heard LS50 with > 10k equipment at your dealer and expect to sound similar with a Yamaha RXV?And still think about some unknown and used amps...,which is not a problem at all if you would know the stuff

From your posts I am not sure if you really need a revealing speaker like a LS50 and could appreciate it´s sound.You get what you pay for and I would not care the eventually loss of 200USD,that´s a lot cheaper than investing more to get it right with unknown result.I would consider an other dealer if possible who doesn´t rip you off and let the stuff try you at your home.Maybe he would charge you for that,especially if he would set up for you personally,that is ok and should be off bill from mspr. price if you buy the stuff from him.

 

[shkumar4963]

Sorry to confuse you Esra. I am not trying to be difficult or confusing.

Thank you Vladimir and CnoEvil.

This morning I auditioned again my speakers with my amp as well as dealer's amp. Both my amp and dealers amp sounded good. So the problem is in my room acoustics. Dealers amp (Marantz 8005) did sound better than mine which was expected. Actually the sound was to die for.

So i decided to keep these speakers. Now I need to set these speakers properly at home and then start shopping for a better amplifier. Till then get some room treatment and start enjoying the music.

Thank you all for your advice. I do have everything I need now.

Vladimir and CnoEvil, you do have a way of explaining things that is easy to understand.

 

[Jota180]

Perhaps not an expensive amp but they do need an amp that can supply the power when the speaker dips into 3.2Ohms and perhaps lower as the temperature rises at louder volumes. If an amp cannot supply the power as required it will affect sound quality. So you do need to ensure your amp/speaker choice matches with your room size and how loud you intend to play your music.

At what frequency is the 3.2ohm dip? Anything beyond 80-100Hz will suck milliwatts and milliamps of current.

Nothing bellow 4 ohms according to JA's measurments. Any 4 ohm capable amp will have no issues.

and at what temperature was that measured at? How long were they running and what volume? If they're run for a longer time at higher volumes that impedance will drop.

One other thing, something I've posted about before, a KEF employee told me in response to my question about amp power and clipping that my 50 W per channel power amp would be fine with those speakers at "decent but not overly loud listening levels". "It's a bit on the low side of the middle of the spec (of what's required), if that makes sense".

Basically, the amp was fine for lowish to 'normal' volumes but his opinion was to get the most out of the speakers would require more amp.

 

[Jota180]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

Is there any quantifiable evidence to back that statement up? So something that shows "impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing" or "developed or improved so as to be (more) precise or subtle."

 

[Native_bon]

If you have troubles filling a room, you don't just upgrade the amp, you must go with bigger speakers first. And since I completely agree with Esra about the risks of getting subs right, I'll stick to floorstanders as a recommendation. I suggested subs because I thought you are firm at keeping the KEFs.

Your room is demanding North American speaker building standards. British audio is for very small appartments with brick walls.

JBL LS80 - Power and amazing fun. A breathtaking listen every single time. European speaker of the year - EISA award.

PSB Synchrony One - Scale and refinement. Sonus Faber who? Stereophile recommended Class A component, reviewed by JA himself.

Both are easy to locate through Harman and NAD dealers and can be had under $2500.

Regarding NAD amps, don't expect huge leaps in design between two following generations, it is essentially still the same circuitry, just adapting to new electronic components as they come along, maybe they'll change the face plate and the knobs. Problem with NAD from the 90's and early 00's was their reliability due to the lead free solder and bad capacitor batches. They failed massively because of it (and so many AVRs and PCs), but that has improved with the new generations. Of course an owner with a working unit will tell you that is a myth since his own unit works. I'm just relaying what the word on the net was.

May I also recommend Boston Acoustics M340.Full & tight bass.

 

[Vladimir]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

i

Is there any quantifiable evidence to back that statement up?  So something that shows "impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing" or "developedi or improved so as to be (more) precise or subtle."

No need. My hearing is the ultimate truth you need to know.

 

[davedotco]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

i

Is there any quantifiable evidence to back that statement up? So something that shows "impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing" or "developedi or improved so as to be (more) precise or subtle."

No need. My hearing is the ultimate truth you need to know.

And everyone else's is fataly flawed. The standard starting position for any self respecting hi-fi Guru.

 

[Covenanter]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

i

Is there any quantifiable evidence to back that statement up? So something that shows "impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing" or "developedi or improved so as to be (more) precise or subtle."

No need. My hearing is the ultimate truth you need to know.

And everyone else's is fataly flawed. The standard starting position for any self respecting hi-fi Guru.

Indeed it is!

But then we do listen to hifi with our ears so other people's ears are largely irrelevant. So I think with my 60+ year old ears that my system is fantastic but I wouldn't be at all surprised if a) a younger person wouldn't agree and/or b) it could be proved scientifically to be less than optimum. And in fact it doesn't matter, if it sounds good to me then it is good.

Chris

 

[davedotco]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

i

Is there any quantifiable evidence to back that statement up? So something that shows "impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing" or "developedi or improved so as to be (more) precise or subtle."

No need. My hearing is the ultimate truth you need to know.

And everyone else's is fataly flawed. The standard starting position for any self respecting hi-fi Guru.

Indeed it is!

But then we do listen to hifi with our ears so other people's ears are largely irrelevant. So I think with my 60+ year old ears that my system is fantastic but I wouldn't be at all surprised if a) a younger person wouldn't agree and/or b) it could be proved scientifically to be less than optimum. And in fact it doesn't matter, if it sounds good to me then it is good.

Chris

One of the 'tricks' I have learned over the years is to 'step out of the bubble' and try playing some music on your system that is as far as possible from what you normally would play.

Sometimes when I was having a demonstration, I would let the person doing the dem play something he thinks sounds good, ideally something that I would not normally listen to. I would be listening to see if the music holds my attention, although I may not like it, can I see the point of it, I find this very helpful.

I know from your posts that your preference is mostly classical, if you don't play jazz, try Ornette Coleman, "The shape of Jazz to come", see if you can work out why it is considered one of the greatest albums of all time. Might be interesting.

 

[shkumar4963]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

i

Is there any quantifiable evidence to back that statement up? So something that shows "impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing" or "developedi or improved so as to be (more) precise or subtle."

No need. My hearing is the ultimate truth you need to know.

And everyone else's is fataly flawed. The standard starting position for any self respecting hi-fi Guru.

Indeed it is!

But then we do listen to hifi with our ears so other people's ears are largely irrelevant. So I think with my 60+ year old ears that my system is fantastic but I wouldn't be at all surprised if a) a younger person wouldn't agree and/or b) it could be proved scientifically to be less than optimum. And in fact it doesn't matter, if it sounds good to me then it is good.

Chris

Well said Chris... I will further add that if you like classical music and the system does not sound perfect for Techno-Pop. Who cares....

 

[CnoEvil]

Sorry to confuse you Esra. I am not trying to be difficult or confusing.

Thank you Vladimir and CnoEvil.

This morning I auditioned again my speakers with my amp as well as dealer's amp. Both my amp and dealers amp sounded good. So the problem is in my room acoustics. Dealers amp (Marantz 8005) did sound better than mine which was expected. Actually the sound was to die for.

So i decided to keep these speakers. Now I need to set these speakers properly at home and then start shopping for a better amplifier. Till then get some room treatment and start enjoying the music.

Thank you all for your advice. I do have everything I need now.

Vladimir and CnoEvil, you do have a way of explaining things that is easy to understand.

Thank you for saying so....it's nice to get feedback, as one's posts often go unremarked on, so it's hard to know if they were helpful.

It's very possible to get a great sound, at a variety of price levels (for classical music in your case), with a little knowledge about what to have on a demo list.

In Post 2 here, I mentioned some brands that I think work well with Classical: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/bookshelf-speakers-classical-music