KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[Covenanter]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

i

Is there any quantifiable evidence to back that statement up? So something that shows "impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing" or "developedi or improved so as to be (more) precise or subtle."

No need. My hearing is the ultimate truth you need to know.

And everyone else's is fataly flawed. The standard starting position for any self respecting hi-fi Guru.

Indeed it is!

But then we do listen to hifi with our ears so other people's ears are largely irrelevant. So I think with my 60+ year old ears that my system is fantastic but I wouldn't be at all surprised if a) a younger person wouldn't agree and/or b) it could be proved scientifically to be less than optimum. And in fact it doesn't matter, if it sounds good to me then it is good.

Chris

One of the 'tricks' I have learned over the years is to 'step out of the bubble' and try playing some music on your system that is as far as possible from what you normally would play.

Sometimes when I was having a demonstration, I would let the person doing the dem play something he thinks sounds good, ideally something that I would not normally listen to. I would be listening to see if the music holds my attention, although I may not like it, can I see the point of it, I find this very helpful.

I know from your posts that your preference is mostly classical, if you don't play jazz, try Ornette Coleman, "The shape of Jazz to come", see if you can work out why it is considered one of the greatest albums of all time. Might be interesting.

I've only just seen this. Thanks for the recommendation and I've had a listen on the net. I'm afraid it's not for me as it just doesn't say anything to me. This is not to denigrate it in any way. Very little music is universal and I probably lack the cultural cues to understand this music.

Chris

 

[davedotco]

I've only just seen this. Thanks for the recommendation and I've had a listen on the net. I'm afraid it's not for me as it just doesn't say anything to me. This is not to denigrate it in any way. Very little music is universal and I probably lack the cultural cues to understand this music.

Chris

I understand......, well actually I don't.

I find listening to music with which I might have little natural affinity to be both instructive and enlightening, it is as close to a universal artform as I know.

The recording I suggested is one of the great jazz albums of all time, it is 'difficult' in the sense that there are no obviuous melodies and the structure is quite 'free'. It is all held together by the rhythm section, allowing Cherry and Coleman to play in an innovative, hugely expressive manner that, to me, is quite compulsive.

I was not asking that you like the music, just whether you see any point or merit in it, which it would appear you do not. Maybe you should try some other unknown recordings that are more in tune with your taste......*unknw*

 

[Covenanter]

I've only just seen this. Thanks for the recommendation and I've had a listen on the net. I'm afraid it's not for me as it just doesn't say anything to me. This is not to denigrate it in any way. Very little music is universal and I probably lack the cultural cues to understand this music.

Chris

I understand......, well actually I don't.

I find listening to music with which I might have little natural affinity to be both instructive and enlightening, it is as close to a universal artform as I know.

The recording I suggested is one of the great jazz albums of all time, it is 'difficult' in the sense that there are no obviuous melodies and the structure is quite 'free'. It is all held together by the rhythm section, allowing Cherry and Coleman to play in an innovative, hugely expressive manner that, to me, is quite compulsive.

I was not asking that you like the music, just whether you see any point or merit in it, which it would appear you do not. Maybe you should try some other unknown recordings that are more in tune with your taste......*unknw*

I can in fact see "merit" in it. It's very skillful and they are obviously excellent musicians. However the music itself means nothing to me. It does not engage me or entertain me. Why is hard to say!

There is obviously a "point" in it because you and others like it. It's not just random noise. But for music to have meaning to the listener it must appeal to them intellectually or emotionally or both. This doesn't do either for me but I'm happy to admit it's my deficiency.

I wonder if for example you relate to something like the Bartok string quartets?

Chris

 

[davedotco]

I've only just seen this. Thanks for the recommendation and I've had a listen on the net. I'm afraid it's not for me as it just doesn't say anything to me. This is not to denigrate it in any way. Very little music is universal and I probably lack the cultural cues to understand this music.

Chris

I understand......, well actually I don't.

I find listening to music with which I might have little natural affinity to be both instructive and enlightening, it is as close to a universal artform as I know.

The recording I suggested is one of the great jazz albums of all time, it is 'difficult' in the sense that there are no obviuous melodies and the structure is quite 'free'. It is all held together by the rhythm section, allowing Cherry and Coleman to play in an innovative, hugely expressive manner that, to me, is quite compulsive.

I was not asking that you like the music, just whether you see any point or merit in it, which it would appear you do not. Maybe you should try some other unknown recordings that are more in tune with your taste......*unknw*

I can in fact see "merit" in it. It's very skillful and they are obviously excellent musicians. However the music itself means nothing to me. It does not engage me or entertain me. Why is hard to say!

There is obviously a "point" in it because you and others like it. It's not just random noise. But for music to have meaning to the listener it must appeal to them intellectually or emotionally or both. This doesn't do either for me but I'm happy to admit it's my deficiency.

I wonder if for example you relate to something like the Bartok string quartets?

Chris

Actually the Bartok is not a bad example. I find it hard to listen to large scale orchestral works in the confines of a the domestic situation but I do play some small scale recordings. I put the Bartok in a similar category to some Strauss or Schubert lieder, not music to relax to or to play in the background but when I want to listen I find the dark, brooding nature of the quartets or, say, Winterreise, are sometimes exactly what I need.

It is difficult, there is no right or wrong here, I just try and use the way I listen to help with the evaluation of systems I am listening to. Unlike many enthusiasts I find playing music I am familier with of very limited use, I try all sorts though, sometimes even things I don't like or difficult recordings, I often find that the better systems produce something to interest me.

 

[Covenanter]

I've only just seen this. Thanks for the recommendation and I've had a listen on the net. I'm afraid it's not for me as it just doesn't say anything to me. This is not to denigrate it in any way. Very little music is universal and I probably lack the cultural cues to understand this music.

Chris

I understand......, well actually I don't.

I find listening to music with which I might have little natural affinity to be both instructive and enlightening, it is as close to a universal artform as I know.

The recording I suggested is one of the great jazz albums of all time, it is 'difficult' in the sense that there are no obviuous melodies and the structure is quite 'free'. It is all held together by the rhythm section, allowing Cherry and Coleman to play in an innovative, hugely expressive manner that, to me, is quite compulsive.

I was not asking that you like the music, just whether you see any point or merit in it, which it would appear you do not. Maybe you should try some other unknown recordings that are more in tune with your taste......*unknw*

I can in fact see "merit" in it. It's very skillful and they are obviously excellent musicians. However the music itself means nothing to me. It does not engage me or entertain me. Why is hard to say!

There is obviously a "point" in it because you and others like it. It's not just random noise. But for music to have meaning to the listener it must appeal to them intellectually or emotionally or both. This doesn't do either for me but I'm happy to admit it's my deficiency.

I wonder if for example you relate to something like the Bartok string quartets?

Chris

Actually the Bartok is not a bad example. I find it hard to listen to large scale orchestral works in the confines of a the domestic situation but I do play some small scale recordings. I put the Bartok in a similar category to some Strauss or Schubert lieder, not music to relax to or to play in the background but when I want to listen I find the dark, brooding nature of the quartets or, say, Winterreise, are sometimes exactly what I need.

It is difficult, there is no right or wrong here, I just try and use the way I listen to help with the evaluation of systems I am listening to. Unlike many enthusiasts I find playing music I am familier with of very limited use, I try all sorts though, sometimes even things I don't like or difficult recordings, I often find that the better systems produce something to interest me.

Indeed the Bartok would not make background music nor would your Coleman. Haydn string quartets I do use as background when I am studying. That isn't to say that they are not involving but they don't require the same degree of attention (and I love Haydn).

I don't spend a lot of time evaluating systems except when I want to buy a new one. I do listen a lot to music I love though.

Chris

 

[davedotco]

Indeed the Bartok would not make background music nor would your Coleman. Haydn string quartets I do use as background when I am studying. That isn't to say that they are not involving but they don't require the same degree of attention (and I love Haydn).

I don't spend a lot of time evaluating systems except when I want to buy a new one. I do listen a lot to music I love though.

Chris

As I have explained elsewhere, I enjoy hi-fi as a hobby and music, well as music, fortunately I have no problem keeping them separate.

In terms of what I like I am something of a scatterbrain, I do not really have 'favourites' that I return to time and time again, I am always moving on and looking for something new and different. I never really listened to much jazz before this year but something caught my eye in something I was reading regarding Ornette Coleman. They referenced the "Shape of Jazz" album which I looked into, discovered it was released the same year as "kind of Blue" and discovered in more detail the work of Davis, Coleman and their interaction with musicians like Don Cherry, John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock and the rest.

Fantastic music that I never knew existed a year or so ago, and wouldn't have listened to it, even if I had. I'm having trouble with jazz piano at the moment, something else for me to look into.

 

[Native_bon]

Indeed the Bartok would not make background music nor would your Coleman. Haydn string quartets I do use as background when I am studying. That isn't to say that they are not involving but they don't require the same degree of attention (and I love Haydn).

I don't spend a lot of time evaluating systems except when I want to buy a new one. I do listen a lot to music I love though.

Chris

As I have explained elsewhere, I enjoy hi-fi as a hobby and music, well as music, fortunately I have no problem keeping them separate.

In terms of what I like I am something of a scatterbrain, I do not really have 'favourites' that I return to time and time again, I am always moving on and looking for something new and different. I never really listened to much jazz before this year but something caught my eye in something I was reading regarding Ornette Coleman. They referenced the "Shape of Jazz" album which I looked into, discovered it was released the same year as "kind of Blue" and discovered in more detail the work of Davis, Coleman and their interaction with musicians like Don Cherry, John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock and the rest.

Fantastic music that I never knew existed a year or so ago, and wouldn't have listened to it, even if I had. I'm having trouble with jazz piano at the moment, something else for me to look into.

The Shape of Jazz brillant album. May I also suggest "Fingerpainting" The music of Herbie Hancock. The interaction between Christian McBride, Nicholas Payton & Mark Whitfield is just magical. The acoustic play between them is one of the best I have heard so far from any album. Excellent recorded album & excellent muisc. I dont think there is any jazz album quite like this one. Also if your systems bass is loose this recording will let you know.

 

[davedotco]

Indeed the Bartok would not make background music nor would your Coleman. Haydn string quartets I do use as background when I am studying. That isn't to say that they are not involving but they don't require the same degree of attention (and I love Haydn).

I don't spend a lot of time evaluating systems except when I want to buy a new one. I do listen a lot to music I love though.

Chris

As I have explained elsewhere, I enjoy hi-fi as a hobby and music, well as music, fortunately I have no problem keeping them separate.

In terms of what I like I am something of a scatterbrain, I do not really have 'favourites' that I return to time and time again, I am always moving on and looking for something new and different. I never really listened to much jazz before this year but something caught my eye in something I was reading regarding Ornette Coleman. They referenced the "Shape of Jazz" album which I looked into, discovered it was released the same year as "kind of Blue" and discovered in more detail the work of Davis, Coleman and their interaction with musicians like Don Cherry, John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock and the rest.

Fantastic music that I never knew existed a year or so ago, and wouldn't have listened to it, even if I had. I'm having trouble with jazz piano at the moment, something else for me to look into.

The Shape of Jazz brillant album. May I also suggest "Fingerpainting" The music of Herbie Hancock. The interaction between Christian McBride, Nicholas Payton & Mark Whitfield is just magical. The acoustic play between them is one of the best I have heard so far from any album. Excellent recorded album & excellent muisc. I dont think there is any jazz album quite like this one. Also if your systems bass is loose this recording will let you know.

Thanks, I shall take a look.

Hancock is interesting, untill quite recentlyI considered him a rather flash, jazz/fusion player, a style I generally dislike. Until that is 'The shape of Jazz' got me into the whole 60s jazz scene, some fantastic music and of course back to Herbie Hancock. His contributions to the Miles Davis's Quintet, on acoustic and Rhodes piano is superb, suddenly I see what all the fuss is about, great player and of course composer.

My exploration of jazz is still ongoing so I am happy for any recommendations, some will undoubtably send me spinning off into the appreciation of other artists and styles, others perhaps not.

All of this stemmed from an interview of Jack Bruce, Ginger Baker, who explained that as, primarily, jazz musicians they considered Cream to be a jazz band. Taking Ornette Coleman as their inspiration, they just layed down the rhythm allowing Eric to pretty much play whatever he wanted over the top.

As Jack said, "We were playing jazz, we just didn't tell Eric".

 

[pauln]

My exploration of jazz is still ongoing so I am happy for any recommendations, some will undoubtably send me spinning off into the appreciation of other artists and styles, others perhaps not.

May I recommend 'Native Dancer' by Wayne Shorter, Coltranes (sort of) successor in Miles' second great quintet. Also featuring Herbie together with Milton Nascimento and Airto Moreira. Brilliant jazz/fusion/funk/Brazilian mix. If that's to your taste you could go on to the Chick Corea 'Return to Forever' album which also features Airto Moreira together with Flora Purim and the fantastic Stanley Clarke. That might lead you on to Stanleys own albums such as 'School Days' and 'If this Bass Could Only Talk'

Course it might not be your cup of tea.

 

[Native_bon]

Indeed the Bartok would not make background music nor would your Coleman. Haydn string quartets I do use as background when I am studying. That isn't to say that they are not involving but they don't require the same degree of attention (and I love Haydn).

I don't spend a lot of time evaluating systems except when I want to buy a new one. I do listen a lot to music I love though.

Chris

As I have explained elsewhere, I enjoy hi-fi as a hobby and music, well as music, fortunately I have no problem keeping them separate.

In terms of what I like I am something of a scatterbrain, I do not really have 'favourites' that I return to time and time again, I am always moving on and looking for something new and different. I never really listened to much jazz before this year but something caught my eye in something I was reading regarding Ornette Coleman. They referenced the "Shape of Jazz" album which I looked into, discovered it was released the same year as "kind of Blue" and discovered in more detail the work of Davis, Coleman and their interaction with musicians like Don Cherry, John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock and the rest.

Fantastic music that I never knew existed a year or so ago, and wouldn't have listened to it, even if I had. I'm having trouble with jazz piano at the moment, something else for me to look into.

The Shape of Jazz brillant album. May I also suggest "Fingerpainting" The music of Herbie Hancock. The interaction between Christian McBride, Nicholas Payton & Mark Whitfield is just magical. The acoustic play between them is one of the best I have heard so far from any album. Excellent recorded album & excellent muisc. I dont think there is any jazz album quite like this one. Also if your systems bass is loose this recording will let you know.

Thanks, I shall take a look.

Hancock is interesting, untill quite recentlyI considered him a rather flash, jazz/fusion player, a style I generally dislike. Until that is 'The shape of Jazz' got me into the whole 60s jazz scene, some fantastic music and of course back to Herbie Hancock. His contributions to the Miles Davis's Quintet, on acoustic and Rhodes piano is superb, suddenly I see what all the fuss is about, great player and of course composer.

My exploration of jazz is still ongoing so I am happy for any recommendations, some will undoubtably send me spinning off into the appreciation of other artists and styles, others perhaps not.

All of this stemmed from an interview of Jack Bruce, Ginger Baker, who explained that as, primarily, jazz musicians they considered Cream to be a jazz band. Taking Ornette Coleman as their inspiration, they just layed down the rhythm allowing Eric to pretty much play whatever he wanted over the top.

As Jack said, "We were playing jazz, we just didn't tell Eric".

Thats the way it should be done. Improvisation of the music.

 

[Vladimir]

Thats the way it should be done. Improvisation of the music.

Unless you are Alex Hoffman.

 

[davedotco]

My exploration of jazz is still ongoing so I am happy for any recommendations, some will undoubtably send me spinning off into the appreciation of other artists and styles, others perhaps not.

May I recommend 'Native Dancer' by Wayne Shorter, Coltranes (sort of) successor in Miles' second great quintet. Also featuring Herbie together with Milton Nascimento and Airto Moreira. Brilliant jazz/fusion/funk/Brazilian mix. If that's to your taste you could go on to the Chick Corea 'Return to Forever' album which also features Airto Moreira together with Flora Purim and the fantastic Stanley Clarke. That might lead you on to Stanleys own albums such as 'School Days' and 'If this Bass Could Only Talk'

Course it might not be your cup of tea.

Now you're getting silly, I hated 'Return to forever' at the time, the eponymous first album I thought was simply awfull. Similarly I thought Stanley Clarke to be so far up his own backside that he couldn't find his e-string with either hand.

But seriously, time has past and more importantly my musical tastes have changed, one of several avenues I plan to explore next was the developement of 'electric' jazz in the 70's and 80s. At the moment I am looking at a lot of transitional material, Miles's Sorcerer, Nefertiti and on to Bitches Brew. I know BB of course, who doesn't, but seeing how it developed fom the afor mentioned albums is fascinating.

 

[BigH]

Thats the way it should be done. Improvisation of the music.

Unless you are Alex Hoffman.

I guess he was just doing that for publicity?

 

[pauln]

My exploration of jazz is still ongoing so I am happy for any recommendations, some will undoubtably send me spinning off into the appreciation of other artists and styles, others perhaps not.

May I recommend 'Native Dancer' by Wayne Shorter, Coltranes (sort of) successor in Miles' second great quintet. Also featuring Herbie together with Milton Nascimento and Airto Moreira. Brilliant jazz/fusion/funk/Brazilian mix. If that's to your taste you could go on to the Chick Corea 'Return to Forever' album which also features Airto Moreira together with Flora Purim and the fantastic Stanley Clarke. That might lead you on to Stanleys own albums such as 'School Days' and 'If this Bass Could Only Talk'

Course it might not be your cup of tea.

Now you're getting silly, I hated 'Return to forever' at the time, the eponymous first album I thought was simply awfull. Similarly I thought Stanley Clarke to be so far up his own backside that he couldn't find his e-string with either hand.

But seriously, time has past and more importantly my musical tastes have changed, one of several avenues I plan to explore next was the developement of 'electric' jazz in the 70's and 80s. At the moment I am looking at a lot of transitional material, Miles's Sorcerer, Nefertiti and on to Bitches Brew. I know BB of course, who doesn't, but seeing how it developed fom the afor mentioned albums is fascinating.

lol

All great albums. 'In a Silent Way' is, I think, a stunning album.

Went off his stuff with 'On the Corner' though - a step too far for me.

 

[Vladimir]

Thats the way it should be done. Improvisation of the music.

Unless you are Alex Hoffman.

I guess he was just doing that for publicity?

For attention surely but it backfired on him.

 

[BigH]

Thats the way it should be done. Improvisation of the music.

Unless you are Alex Hoffman.

I guess he was just doing that for publicity?

For attention surely but it backfired on him.

Im not surprised.

 

[BigH]

lol

All great albums. 'In a Silent Way' is, I think, a stunning album.

Went off his stuff with 'On the Corner' though - a step too far for me.

I prefer A Tribute To Jack Johnson

 

[davedotco]

lol

All great albums. 'In a Silent Way' is, I think, a stunning album.

Went off his stuff with 'On the Corner' though - a step too far for me.

I prefer A Tribute To Jack Johnson

It ia a very interesting period. The quintet recordings are among the finest examples of music in the post 'Kind of blue' era, maybe not as challenging as some Coleman or Coltrane but it is the gentle slide, mostly via Hancock's Rhodes piano, from acoustic to electric instruments that is interesting.

The contrast from, say, E.S.P. or Jack Johnson to Bitches Brew is obvious enough, but it is, for the moment the 'transitional' albums that are holding my attention.

BTW. This is why I love Spotify, learning about the music in this way would be very difficult without it.

 

[unsleepable]

For attention surely but it backfired on him.

Maybe manners were not the best, but the guy should be entitled to his own opinion without people freaking out about it. It seems a bit like jazz fundamentalism.

 

[Vladimir]

For attention surely but it backfired on him.

Maybe manners were not the best, but the guy should be entitled to his own opinion without people freaking out about it. It seems a bit like jazz fundamentalism.

Yup. PC has completely suffocated freedom of expression and critical thinking in the US.

 

[shkumar4963]

I am looking to find detailed specs for LS 50. If someone have access to them, will highly appreciate them. Specifically, I am looking for the following:

1. What is the RMS power capacity of a single LS50 and was that test done as per the IEC standard number 268-5. If not, what waveform was used for th test?

2. What was the max distortion at the power capacity as defined above? I am assuming that it is close to .4%.

3. What was the SPL level produced at 1 m distance at that power capacity level?

In addition, I will appreciate learning more about how to do the following:

4. Is there a way to figure out if the speaker is being played above it power capacity independent of the amplifier?

5. Is there a way to determine if the amp is clipping and at what percent of time for the music I am playing?

 

[CnoEvil]

I am looking to find detailed specs for LS 50. If someone have access to them, will highly appreciate them. Specifically, I am looking for the following:

1. What is the RMS power capacity of a single LS50 and was that test done as per the IEC standard number 268-5. If not, what waveform was used for th test?

2. What was the max distortion at the power capacity as defined above? I am assuming that it is close to .4%.

3. What was the SPL level produced at 1 m distance at that power capacity level?

In addition, I will appreciate learning more about how to do the following:

4. Is there a way to figure out if the speaker is being played above it power capacity independent of the amplifier?

5. Is there a way to determine if the amp is clipping and at what percent of time for the music I am playing?

Why don't you give Kef a ring......they are very helpful.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Ask for Jack. Now he's finished designing the Reference range, he's got nothing to do. He just sits at his desk annoying those around him by flicking little bits of compressed paper at them. He's become a bit of a menace actually. He'll be glad of a phone call or two to talk about his creations, it'll make him feel wanted.

 

[shkumar4963]

I am working with someone at KEF but does not seem that he is understanding the questions or has the answers. I have asked him to get the information from their technical group. In the meantime, I am sure somepublication may have measured the speakers as per IEC standards and may have the answers.

 

[nopiano]

I am working with someone at KEF but does not seem that he is understanding the questions or has the answers. I have asked him to get the information from their technical group. In the meantime, I am sure somepublication may have measured the speakers as per IEC standards and may have the answers.

I recall HiFi News had a thorough test and subscribers can download fuller details. Some of your questions above seem to be about amplifier performance however, and to be honest I fail to see how the answers will help anyway. If you like the sound and have a decent amp, buy them! If not, don't!