KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[CnoEvil]

I haven't heard praise about Avalons and Accuphase as much as I've read prostrating about bookshelf speakers and desktop amps on this forum. What happened to real hi-fi gear?

They are mentioned when budget appropriate.....in fact Roby (a member on here who hasn't posted for a while) has some Avalons.

If someone is looking to spend less than £2k (more the norm on here), there is no point in telling them how good Accuphase and Avalon are.

 

[davedotco]

Mmmm.......*scratch_one-s_head*

The B3131a is not a particularly good speaker, even of it's 'type', the cheap ribbon tweeter can sound disconnected and the big bass drive gives it a 'shouty' quality in the midrange, it goes quite loud, has plenty of bass but in every other the smaller B3130 is better, as indeed are the Presonus Eris, Yamaha HS and Equator models.

Interestingly, the things that makes all these speakers so impressive, clarity, punch, dynamics, are the very things that a better amplifier brings to the Kefs.

I accept that the Kefs plus amplifier will be pretty pricey but there is a level of ease and refinement that the cheaper pro monitors can't really match, though were you to spend around the £1k range you would be getting very close indeed for around half the price.

Any Accuton or Vitavox drivers inside the KEF LS50 that I haven't heard of? Refinement in budget domestic Hi-Fi that pro monitors can't really match?

I haven't heard praise about Avalons and Accuphase as much as I've read prostrating about bookshelf speakers and desktop amps on this forum. What happened to real hi-fi gear?

Now, now, Vlad, you are not going to find Accutron (?), Vitavox, ATC or Volt drivers in modestly priced nearfield monitors either, be realistic.

Anyway you know my views on most of the mass market mid-fi that clutters up this forum, which is why I often tend to give recomendations for products that come from outside the mundane mainstream, including, as you well know, active (pro type) speakers where apropriate.

I was a bit severe on the Behringers, but they were not a great choice in this instance, but if you want to play some bass heavy dance or electronica at anything above background levels you will not get close to their perfornance with any coventional amp/speaker combination at their £330 pair price.

 

[Esra]

Anybody have an idea what a replacement driver of the LS50 cost?I heard numbers between 25-50,is this right?

 

[Vladimir]

You wont find any expensive ribbons inside the Behringers but they will still kick some cheap dome tweeter ars.

Now, now, Vlad, you are not going to find Accutron (?), Vitavox, ATC or Volt drivers in modestly priced nearfield monitors either, be realistic.

Anyway you know my views on most of the mass market mid-fi that clutters up this forum, which is why I often tend to give recomendations for products that come from outside the mundane mainstream, including, as you well know, active (pro type) speakers where apropriate.

I was a bit severe on the Behringers, but they were not a great choice in this instance, but if you want to play some bass heavy dance or electronica at anything above background levels you will not get close to their perfornance with any coventional amp/speaker combination at their £330 pair price.

Repetitive unquantifiable statements that serve no other purpuse except to tire down the oposite argument. But OK, I'm used to it.

The active Behringer Truth B3031a are superior sonic performers to the mediocre hyped passive KEF LS50s and offer vastly better value for money. (see, I can do it too)

Accuton

 

[Esra]

You wont find any expensive ribbons inside the Behringers but they will still kick some cheap dome tweeter ars.

Repetitive unquantifiable statements that serve no other purpuse except to tire down the oposite argument. But OK, I'm used to it.

The active Behringer Truth B3031a are superior sonic performers to the mediocre hyped passive KEF LS50s and offer vastly better value for money. (see, I can do it too)

Accuton

*lol* I am out....

Everything said concerning LS50...many times...

*ok* Behringer

 

[Vladimir]

*ok* Behringer

Eeewwww! I'd rather have the Kef.

 

[BigH]

You wont find any expensive ribbons inside the Behringers but they will still kick some cheap dome tweeter ars.

Now, now, Vlad, you are not going to find Accutron (?), Vitavox, ATC or Volt drivers in modestly priced nearfield monitors either, be realistic.

Anyway you know my views on most of the mass market mid-fi that clutters up this forum, which is why I often tend to give recomendations for products that come from outside the mundane mainstream, including, as you well know, active (pro type) speakers where apropriate.

I was a bit severe on the Behringers, but they were not a great choice in this instance, but if you want to play some bass heavy dance or electronica at anything above background levels you will not get close to their perfornance with any coventional amp/speaker combination at their £330 pair price.

Repetitive unquantifiable statements that serve no other purpuse except to tire down the oposite argument. But OK, I'm used to it.

The active Behringer Truth B3031a are superior sonic performers to the mediocre hyped passive KEF LS50s and offer vastly better value for money. (see, I can do it too)

Accuton

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

 

[Vladimir]

well the ls50s were clearly better than the cm1s so maybe you should have bought the Beringers and saved yourself a load of money.

The CM1s are more refined.

 

[Freddy58]

I also auditioned PMC Twenty 21. But it was at a different dealer. To me also, they sounded to have more bass and not boomy. CM1 and CM5 at the same dealer sounded to have bass but more boomy - CM1 more than CM5 but both more than PMC. BTW PMC are more than twice as expensive as LS50. The clarity of high mids and at tweeter was not as good in PMC as it was in LS50 in my opinion. By the way, what do you mean by Boxy. Is it same as boomy where you can here the box or the walls.

Hiya.

What I mean by boxy is that the speakers sounded like they were in a box instead of being part of the cabinet. Of course, it was only subtle, but I noticed it straight away.

Blimey Vlad, what have you and Dave been up to? *biggrin*

 

[Covenanter]

At the end of the day you can talk all you like but you actually have to hear them. I did that and they are, in my opinion, very artificial.

However, they sell like hot-cakes!

Chris

 

[Frank Harvey]

The LS50s are quite an achievement for their price point - this is clear from reading the white paper, even if you've never heard them.

What sets the LS50s apart from virtually every other speaker under £1,000 is the fact that they don't try and reproduce bass that they are not able to. This is the one major downfalls of most speakers. Of course, most people like a warmer, fuller sound, the sort of sound you get from a speaker that tries to produce more bass than they are physically able to. Because of what the LS50s achieve, there will be those that won't like the sound of them, and that's fine, as you can't argue with an individual's preference. And then there are those that dislike any product that gets good reviews, gains achievements others cannot, or are just plain different. As it stands, there are very few speakers that can compete with them at their price point (except from a personal preference point of view), and individuals will throw what they can at the "odd" one out. The fact that this odd one out has a lot in common with KEF's Reference range and the Blades obviously stands for nothing to certain individuals.

With regards to amplification, one individual referred to "special watts" etc. I'm sure we all know what most of us think of a statement like that, but a quality speaker will always respond well to better quality amplification, and only a top quality speaker can make the most of any extra quality available. I'm guessing some people haven't spent any real time with these speakers, or maybe not heard them in their own listening environment - I didn't fully appreciate them until I owned a set (a full 5.0 set) and witnessed their full capabilities in my own system at home.

 

[Freddy58]

The LS50s are quite an achievement for their price point - this is clear from reading the white paper, even if you've never heard them.

What sets the LS50s apart from virtually every other speaker under £1,000 is the fact that they don't try and reproduce bass that they are not able to. This is the one major downfalls of most speakers. Of course, most people like a warmer, fuller sound, the sort of sound you get from a speaker that tries to produce more bass than they are physically able to. Because of what the LS50s achieve, there will be those that won't like the sound of them, and that's fine, as you can't argue with an individual's preference. And then there are those that dislike any product that gets good reviews, gains achievements others cannot, or are just plain different. As it stands, there are very few speakers that can compete with them at their price point (except from a personal preference point of view), and individuals will throw what they can at the "odd" one out. The fact that this odd one out has a lot in common with KEF's Reference range and the Blades obviously stands for nothing to certain individuals.

With regards to amplification, one individual referred to "special watts" etc. I'm sure we all know what most of us think of a statement like that, but a quality speaker will always respond well to better quality amplification, and only a top quality speaker can make the most of any extra quality available. I'm guessing some people haven't spent any real time with these speakers, or maybe not heard them in their own listening environment - I didn't fully appreciate them until I owned a set (a full 5.0 set) and witnessed their full capabilities in my own system at home.

Hiya Dave.

I have no axe to grind regarding Kef speakers. I had Kef Concords before, and have Kef R300's now. I just didn't like the LS50's, regardless of the pedigree, my bad. Maybe, if I'd bought them even though I didn't like them, they would have excelled in my room. It will remain one of lifes mysteries *smile*

 

[plastic penguin]

Let's bring a little sanity to this debate.

Just because the LS50s got rave reviews, it doesn't automatically mean they'll suit all systems and tastes. Coventry Dave sleeps with his Kefs, so not much point asking for a balanced view. *man_in_love*

I heard the LS50s briefly (posted my opinions here) and they were set against MA GX100, powered by Arcam A19. Both IMHO had their sonic merits and both had small foibles.

This could rumble on until the cows come home, but there'll never be universal agreement.

I'm having my Electro CDP delivered on Monday or Tuesday, and I wouldn't expect universal following -- in fact, until I hear them, I'm not even sure if they are for me...

Hey-ho.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hiya Dave.

I have no axe to grind regarding Kef speakers. I had Kef Concords before, and have Kef R300's now. I just didn't like the LS50's, regardless of the pedigree, my bad. Maybe, if I'd bought them even though I didn't like them, they would have excelled in my room. It will remain one of lifes mysteries *smile*

I fully appreciate that some people won't like them. I know that some will prefer the R300s - they sound fuller, are more laid back, and sound great! There are huge differences between the LS50S and R300 though. The R300s are a three way design, has a fairly large cabinet volume for a standmount speaker, and are pretty efficient. In comparison, the LS50s are a two way speaker, have a very tiny cabinet volume (there's a lot of bracing in there as well as the crossover), and are much less efficient, with the mid/bass driver being about the same size as the mid driver of the R300. As far as I'm concerned, the R300s and LS50s are for two different people.

I know I'm seen as some KEF "fanboy" (I like what I like, just like anyone else), but I will say what I mean regardless of brand, and I'm not too sure the top bods at KEF were too impressed with my reserved judgement about the new Reference range on initial listening (in non familiar surroundings with non familiar material on a non familiar system, I may add). Time and experience with the product has changed that though, and I now appreciate their strengths as well as their similarities to the Blades (yes, the Blades are still better!). Sometimes it just takes time.

 

[Freddy58]

Hiya Dave.

I have no axe to grind regarding Kef speakers. I had Kef Concords before, and have Kef R300's now. I just didn't like the LS50's, regardless of the pedigree, my bad. Maybe, if I'd bought them even though I didn't like them, they would have excelled in my room. It will remain one of lifes mysteries *smile*

I fully appreciate that some people won't like them. I know that some will prefer the R300s - they sound fuller, are more laid back, and sound great! There are huge differences between the LS50S and R300 though. The R300s are a three way design, has a fairly large cabinet volume for a standmount speaker, and are pretty efficient. In comparison, the LS50s are a two way speaker, have a very tiny cabinet volume (there's a lot of bracing in there as well as the crossover), and are much less efficient, with the mid/bass driver being about the same size as the mid driver of the R300. As far as I'm concerned, the R300s and LS50s are for two different people.

I know I'm seen as some KEF "fanboy" (I like what I like, just like anyone else), but I will say what I mean regardless of brand, and I'm not too sure the top bods at KEF were too impressed with my reserved judgement about the new Reference range on initial listening (in non familiar surroundings with non familiar material on a non familiar system, I may add). Time and experience with the product has changed that though, and I now appreciate their strengths as well as their similarities to the Blades (yes, the Blades are still better!). Sometimes it just takes time.

No worries Dave. I just didn't want you to think I'm anti Kef, because the opposite is true

 

[Frank Harvey]

Just because the LS50s got rave reviews, it doesn't automatically mean they'll suit all systems and tastes. Coventry Dave sleeps with his Kefs, so not much point asking for a balanced view. *man_in_love*

Do read my post above. Anyone who feels that I can't give a balanced view on anything doesn't really know me, and I despise the assumption that just because I do what I enjoy doing, my thoughts/feelings/opinions/experience are null and void.

And for the record, I'm from Birmingham, not Coventry. Whilst Coventry is in the same County that I was born (West Midlands), it is far enough away (like Wolverhampton) to have its own accent.

 

[Freddy58]

Just because the LS50s got rave reviews, it doesn't automatically mean they'll suit all systems and tastes. Coventry Dave sleeps with his Kefs, so not much point asking for a balanced view. *man_in_love*

Do read my post above. Anyone who feels that I can't give a balanced view on anything doesn't really know me, and I despise the assumption that just because I do what I enjoy doing, my thoughts/feelings/opinions/experience are null and void.

And for the record, I'm from Birmingham, not Coventry. Whilst Coventry is in the same County that I was born (West Midlands), it is far enough away (like Wolverhampton) to have its own accent.

I was born in B'Ham, so maybe Kefs are a 'brummy' thing? *biggrin*

 

[Frank Harvey]

 

[plastic penguin]

Just because the LS50s got rave reviews, it doesn't automatically mean they'll suit all systems and tastes. Coventry Dave sleeps with his Kefs, so not much point asking for a balanced view. *man_in_love*

Do read my post above. Anyone who feels that I can't give a balanced view on anything doesn't really know me, and I despise the assumption that just because I do what I enjoy doing, my thoughts/feelings/opinions/experience are null and void.

And for the record, I'm from Birmingham, not Coventry. Whilst Coventry is in the same County that I was born (West Midlands), it is far enough away (like Wolverhampton) to have its own accent.

Sorry Midland Dave.

BTW, as soon as saw "The LS50s are quite an achievement for their price point - this is clear from reading the white paper, even if you've never heard them.", so I didn't have read any further.

I'm sure you were behind the demise of Vaudeville, but I am, however, a complete Burke. *smile*

 

[shkumar4963]

I understand what both of you are saying. I am an engineer and understand what Vladimir is saying. But I know that i dont know enough acoustic science to be able to predict finer sonic details of a speaker and an amplifier combo based on physics alone. So I appreciate what Esra is saying based on his live audition and experience.

I have two requirements, actually two situations. One is critical listening where I listen alone with a glass of single malt scotch. But the other situation is when my friends come over and I listen to music rather loud in a group setting and with may be some people dancing.

So for the first situation I probably need a much better amp and no sub. I can buy a new amp for £1000 (NAD 356bee) or an older amp with similar power ratings for $400 or less.

Guys do you feel older NAD amps (NAD 316 or NAD C350) are of poorer quality than the newer one? I would really like to hear both your opinions on this.

For group listening situation, since LS50 can not fill this large a room, I will buy a sub and may be use another set of speakers in the same room in 4.1 speaker set up with sound being pushed through all 4 speakers and the sub. These old speakers are vintage full range speakers Allison CD7. They combined with LS50 and sub will be able to fill the room. Here clearly the aim is not accuracy but room (53 Sq meter) filling sound.

For this I can buy a cheaper sub (about $700 for Sunfire SDS 12) and that would do the job as accuarcy is not required for this situation.

What do you think of that strategy? If you guys feel that NAD C350 or NAD 316 will still be workable, I will buy it right away. Otherwise will wait till I get a good deal on buying a new amp.

Off course I will audition all the amps and subs in a dealer store before buying it. But it will be more of a confirming audition than exploring audition. If the new NAD or sub shows SIGNIFICANT improvement only then I will buy it. Like Esra says one can not buy based on specs but listening and hearing this significant improvement. If it is not, I will not buy.

I will wait for both your responses about this strategy.

Shkumar

 

[Esra]

You have LS50 at home and your funds seems limited to 1000USD,right?You own a Yamaha RXV 800 which works fine.

This one? http://www.cnet.com/products/yamaha-rx-v800-av-receiver-5-1-channel/specs

You don´t know the amps you intend to buy,weather if you will get what you hope for nor if they are ok.These are 10+ year old amps.Did they get a revision,will they need one etc....Also it does seem you didn´t heard LS50 at their full potential and know the sound , like Vlad *pardon* .

Then you own Allison CD7 speakers which you run with your Yamaha till the point you bought LS50?You are also not satisfied with them?Otherwise you wouldn´t need new speakers?You found out that things are not working out like you initially maybe thought by just buying LS50?

You want quality audio listening (very subjective) and ideally also sit together with your friends while enjoying music?You know what a sweetspot is?You have one room to do all this,the big room?Again,you are not satisfied with the results of the LS50 and your Allisons with your equipment?

So if you can bring back your LS50 you will have additional 1000 USD?So a total budget araound 1500-2000 USD?

You read all this here in forum where forum member "CNO EVIL" explained how to handle the LS50 at the very beginning sites of this thread pretty well and understandable and others incl. me fully agree.

In that case i would start all over again by logic.Many opinions and ideas here in forum to get a decent enjoyable system for that money.Your strategy may would work just well,but if you ask me if i were in your situation,I would start all over again and also consider the active way and look out for more sensible passive speakers (89+db).But most important you would demo all the stuff in your rooms before pulling the trigger.Many times said before.

 

[Esra]

*good* *ok* suggestions by Vlad for speakers for your room within your budget.I totaly agree and would have them on my list too with your budget.

 

[Vladimir]

If you have troubles filling a room, you don't just upgrade the amp, you must go with bigger speakers first. And since I completely agree with Esra about the risks of getting subs right, I'll stick to floorstanders as a recommendation. I suggested subs because I thought you are firm at keeping the KEFs.

Your room is demanding North American speaker building standards. British audio is for very small appartments with brick walls.

JBL LS80 - Power and amazing fun. A breathtaking listen every single time. European speaker of the year - EISA award.

PSB Synchrony One - Scale and refinement. Sonus Faber who? Stereophile recommended Class A component, reviewed by JA himself.

Both are easy to locate through Harman and NAD dealers and can be had under $2500.

Regarding NAD amps, don't expect huge leaps in design between two following generations, it is essentially still the same circuitry, just adapting to new electronic components as they come along, maybe they'll change the face plate and the knobs. Problem with NAD from the 90's and early 00's was their reliability due to the lead free solder and bad capacitor batches. They failed massively because of it (and so many AVRs and PCs), but that has improved with the new generations. Of course an owner with a working unit will tell you that is a myth since his own unit works. I'm just relaying what the word on the net was.

 

[Vladimir]

Also it does seem you didn´t heard LS50 at their full potential and know the sound , like Vlad *pardon* .

I certanly didin't. It was a crowd of 6 or 7 of us, all men, all slightly bent forward to grab as much tweeter axis as possible.

 

[Esra]

Also it does seem you didn´t heard LS50 at their full potential and know the sound , like Vlad *pardon* .

I certanly didin't. It was a crowd of 6 or 7 of us, all men, all slightly bent forward to grab as much tweeter axis as possible.

Could have been interesting if some women would have been with you. *biggrin*

As an enthusiast you should try LS50 in the proper way once, just to get an idea about the fuss and i promise you will be amazed.I like them off axis more in my room though.