KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[shkumar4963]

Just saw NAD 216THX (125wpc at 8ohms) with a local used electronics dealer. How will they be for LS50, if I decide to keep them. I can use my Yamaha as a preamp for this amp.

On the other hand I can get New Marantz PM6005 (45wpc at 8 ohms and 60 wpc at 4 ohms) for $400. I think Stereophile has named it as integrated amplifier of the year for 2014 (in less than 500 pounds category) or something like that.

I read somewhere that to avoid clipping amplifier rms power should be about twice the power you want to play it at. To play speakers at their maximum power, the amplifier should be twice that power. Does that make sense to you guys? That will completely eliminate Marantz PM6005 and I will have to go to used amplifiers.

 

[Esra]

As others said before too,you should get a decent amp if you want to keep your LS50.There have been several recommended.Out of your presented choices (NAD 216 amp,Marantz 6005,NAD C350) I would go for the used NAD C350 if you have the need to buy one yet.It would be more clever imo. to collect your funds and buy an amp you really want that will work well safe with your speakers later than buying stuff you don´t know and can demo.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hiya Mr Evil *smile*

Would you elaborate? As I said, I compared with other speakers at the time, some Focal Aria 906's and some PMC Twenty.21's as I recall, and the contrast was quite distinct, to my ears. Please understand, I'm not saying the LS50's are bad speakers, because clearly many are happy with them, I can only voice my opinion, FWIW

Yes of course, though it is only my subjective experience.

Every time I have recently heard Naim amps (with a mixture of Focal speakers and their own), I really didn't get on with the sound....and one of the characteristics of that sound was a boxy quality (for want of another word). Interestingly, the dearer the amps, the more I disliked the sound. I am not convinced by Naim's own speakers, but Focal would not normally sound boxy.

 

[davedotco]

Just saw NAD 216THX (125wpc at 8ohms) with a local used electronics dealer. How will they be for LS50, if I decide to keep them. I can use my Yamaha as a preamp for this amp.

On the other hand I can get New Marantz PM6005 (45wpc at 8 ohms and 60 wpc at 4 ohms) for $400. I think Stereophile has named it as integrated amplifier of the year for 2014 (in less than 500 pounds category) or something like that.

I read somewhere that to avoid clipping amplifier rms power should be about twice the power you want to play it at. To play speakers at their maximum power, the amplifier should be twice that power. Does that make sense to you guys? That will completely eliminate Marantz PM6005 and I will have to go to used amplifiers.

Any of the options you mention might work really well, but in all probability, will not.

The LS50 is a revealing speaker that will, in due course, let you know the limitations of your amplifier. The amount of money tou are prepared to spend on amplification will leave you with an unbalanced system that can be a real pain to live with.

I believe balance is very important in these situations, without it the system will sound pretty good one minute and poor the next, very frustrating and leaving you with the need to change the amplifier yet again.

You have demanding speakers that need very competent electronics, I'm not sure where you are based, but I would be looking at amplifiers in excess of £1000 in the uk market.

If that is more than you wish to spend at this time then you will be better off moving the LS50 on and getting a better balanced amp/speaker combination for the budget you have.

 

[Vladimir]

KEF LS50 are domestic bookshelf speakers with convex baffle that solves reflections from the drivers, and its coaxial design solves time alignment giving the point source experience. But other than that I see nothing super amazing about these speakers, far from revolutionary since those two features are no less than 3 decades old now. Again the myth of the giant killer is being created over some conventional budget hifi.

Demanding speakers are ribbons, isobariks and electrostatics, not KEF LS50 with normal ported dynamic drivers. Revealing speakers are ribbons, electrostats and plasma speakers, even some good compression drivers through horns. KEF LS50 not in that elite, not even close.

Easy on the hype pedal gents.

 

[CnoEvil]

KEF LS50 are domestic bookshelf speakers with convex baffle that solves reflections from the drivers, and its coaxial design solves time alignment giving the point source experience. But other than that I see nothing super amazing about these speakers, far from revolutionary since those two features are no less than 3 decades old now. Again the myth of the giant killer is being created over some conventional budget hifi.

Demanding speakers are ribbons, isobariks and electrostatics, not KEF LS50 with normal dynamic drivers. Revealing speakers are ribbons, electrostats and plasma speakers, even some good compression drivers through horns. KEF LS50 not in that elite, not even close.

Easy on the hype pedal gents.

It's the performance / headroom that you get for the price that I feel is worthy of note.

Have you heard them on the end of a decent system?

 

[Vladimir]

Is the Marantz PM-8005 worthy of that attribute?

 

[CnoEvil]

Is the Marantz PM-8005 worthy of that attribute?

I haven't heard a Marantz since the champagne coloured ones with the graphic equalizer from the early 80s, like the one below...so can't comment.

 

[davedotco]

KEF LS50 are domestic bookshelf speakers with convex baffle that solves reflections from the drivers, and its coaxial design solves time alignment giving the point source experience. But other than that I see nothing super amazing about these speakers, far from revolutionary since those two features are no less than 3 decades old now. Again the myth of the giant killer is being created over some conventional budget hifi.

Demanding speakers are ribbons, isobariks and electrostatics, not KEF LS50 with normal ported dynamic drivers. Revealing speakers are ribbons, electrostats and plasma speakers, even some good compression drivers through horns. KEF LS50 not in that elite, not even close.

Easy on the hype pedal gents.

Demanding can mean different things, in the case of the LS50 it is the transparency and dynamic capability (as Cno says) that is unusual at or near the price, I'm not, in this instance, talking about a demanding load.

Th modern trend of spending more on speakers than on amplifiers is shown up by speakers like the LS50 which shows the linitations of the amplifier more starkly than most speakers around that price. This is the OPs issue.

He may well end up with a system that can sound fine one moment and just fall apart the next as the limits of the amplifiers capability become apparent. I always found setups like this to be the worst, glimpses of real quality surrounded by irritation, hugely frustrating.

 

[Vladimir]

If the load isn't demanding from the amplifier, what else? Resolution?

 

[davedotco]

If the load isn't demanding from the amplifier, what else? Resolution?

Whatever you call it, it is the ability to hear through the speakers to what the rest of the system is doing that makes the difference in this instance. If the amplifier is struggling it will be easier to hear, not masked by a speaker with lower "resolution".

I'm not a huge fan of the Kefs, and as you probably know I think a lot of inexpensive speakers can sound spectacularly good with better amplification, so the Kefs are not unique and possibly over hyped. There are other good small speakers that will respond to better amplification but they are not 'hyped' like the Kef and rarely get the opportunity to show what they can do.

 

[Vladimir]

That is a function of amplifiers ability to drive speaker loads. Resolution is something quantifiable to sources, not amplifiers (at least not with SS amps). If you push 16bit resolution sound through the amp, your should get the same 16bit on the output, just louder, even if the FR is slightly changed. Simple double blind test will confirm this and as tradition has shown, no one hears the difference for this factor X resolution with SS amplifiers, regardless of cost.

I seriosly doubt KEF LS50 needs 'special amps', 'special watts', 'purer current', faster current or voltage slew rate, etc. I see no reason why an amplifier like the NAD C 356BEE shouldn't suffice. *unknw*

 

[Vladimir]

So pls guys enlighten me and tell me which other speakers will give me the sonic flavor and performance of the LS50 for same money if hooked up to a quality amp and would be comparable in your opinion.?

Behringer TRUTH B3031A kicks their behind for half the price and it's an actual monitor, not just a bookshelf speaker. And you don't even need to buy an amp.

OK. I'll get me coat...

 

[Esra]

So pls guys enlighten me and tell me which other speakers will give me the sonic flavor and performance of the LS50 for same money if hooked up to a quality amp and would be comparable in your opinion.?

BTW,the NAD 356Bee is perfectly fine for the LS50 and will deliver min 80% of what the speaker can do,there is no really need to go more up but i can tell you that you would be rewarded if you do,simple...and thats special about them

We are talking here about RXV 800 and 6005 which def. not will show what the speakers can do,nobody claimed a 356bee would not be sufficient...

 

[Esra]

So you compared them with this setup ,right? That´s why you choose Kandy2 and CM1?I don´t get it.

 

[Vladimir]

So you compared them with this setup ,right? That´s why you choose Kandy2 and CM1?I don´t get it.

I bough the speaker and my amp separately and will not have them together for very long. I go through a lot of gear...

The CM1s are not as good as the LS50 but I find them more enjoyable, despite their colored and boomy sound. Quite laidback for all day music listening. I notice the LS50 is very aspirational so I have to pit them against the real performance competition, the pro world monitors, not my mellow B&Ws.

On my radar is a pair of active semi-pro speakers like the Behringers or Dynaudio BMAs, ATC, Yamaha. Depends how much disposable income I have itching at the time and what is in stock in the shops.

 

[Esra]

Vlad, no offense but I doubt u ever demoed a pair of LS50 with a matching quality amp in your room where you would have time to find out what they can do,otherwise you would not argue like that. It makes also no sense start comparing apples to peas(home hifi><pro Audio).Most of us know the returns for your money is usually better in pro stuff if you don´t appreciate craftmanship in home hifi gear and you don´t care much about humming powersupplies.Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. But good/quality stuff in pro audio also cost.I know you have great knowledge in some areas but LS50 are not.

 

[Vladimir]

In a hi-fi shop with a Marantz amp, with music I don't know of. It was there, it was playing, I heard it, I liked it. The same shop where I got my CM1s.

Are you saying they are better than the Behringer Truth B3031a and just need a better (more expensive) amp?

I'm not disputing that they sound nice and beat their competition for the price in the domestic hifi market. I just don't think they need expensive amp to sound their best.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm not disputing that they sound nice and beat their competition for the price in the domestic hifi market. I just don't think they need expensive amp to sound their best.

The sound of every speaker on the planet will improve with better amplification, provided the source is decent....the secret is finding "the sweetspot" between amp and speakers.

 

[Jota180]

In a hi-fi shop with a Marantz amp, with music I don't know of. It was there, it was playing, I heard it, I liked it. The same shop where I got my CM1s.

Are you saying they are better than the Behringer Truth B3031a and just need a better (more expensive) amp?

I'm not disputing that they sound nice and beat their competition for the price in the domestic hifi market. I just don't think they need expensive amp to sound their best.

Perhaps not an expensive amp but they do need an amp that can supply the power when the speaker dips into 3.2Ohms and perhaps lower as the temperature rises at louder volumes. If an amp cannot supply the power as required it will affect sound quality. So you do need to ensure your amp/speaker choice matches with your room size and how loud you intend to play your music.

 

[davedotco]

In a hi-fi shop with a Marantz amp, with music I don't know of. It was there, it was playing, I heard it, I liked it. The same shop where I got my CM1s.

Are you saying they are better than the Behringer Truth B3031a and just need a better (more expensive) amp?

I'm not disputing that they sound nice and beat their competition for the price in the domestic hifi market. I just don't think they need expensive amp to sound their best.

Mmmm.......*scratch_one-s_head*

The B3131a is not a particularly good speaker, even of it's 'type', the cheap ribbon tweeter can sound disconnected and the big bass drive gives it a 'shouty' quality in the midrange, it goes quite loud, has plenty of bass but in every other the smaller B3130 is better, as indeed are the Presonus Eris, Yamaha HS and Equator models.

Interestingly, the things that makes all these speakers so impressive, clarity, punch, dynamics, are the very things that a better amplifier brings to the Kefs.

I accept that the Kefs plus amplifier will be pretty pricey but there is a level of ease and refinement that the cheaper pro monitors can't really match, though were you to spend around the £1k range you would be getting very close indeed for around half the price.

 

[Esra]

I just don't think they need expensive amp to sound their best.

As written before a NAD D3020 or a Pioneer A50 (thats what is meant with synergy) is enough to show and imagine their potential (room,source etc. is also important and essential) but I can easily notice the difference if i hook them up to my monos.Does it makes sense to combine a 800 speaker with 2000+ amplification?Probably not and i could also easily live with the NAD (as it also works very nice with the ls50) if I had confidence in it and would only listen at low levels,but with the Pre/monos combo it sounds damn good and better (again,for me) than any other combo i personally know at this price and yes i like it more than some active speakers like yamaha HS8,KRK Rockit,Adam A7,Mackie HRS (ok they are cheaper). So I guess the Behringer you linked would not satisfy me either. The LS50 rewards every single step in upgrades with your system up to 2000+ amplication (thats what I could test myself), i don´t know other speakers at this price which will do that,and I do know a lot of stuff too.

Stereophile is absolutely right rating them A with restricted LF.And I know several people who can admit (they are cool) that their 8000+ speakers won´t sound better than these except for LF.

I also can imagine that CM1 impressed you more at the dealer because out of ten dealers (just for the sake of numbers) only one sets them up properly to show what they can do.I was also curious what the heck is about them and I took them home for a proper test in my rooms and with my equipment after I heard them properly set up behind a 3000+ T+A equipment.I guess it was dealer >5 ;before that experience I also found them sometimes just ok and sometimes boxy like a cheap car speaker and didn´t understand the fuss about them.But now I understand well why the dealers won´t set them up properly. 1st. they don´t have a clue or 2nd. it would be difficult to sell all the other stuff *secret*

 

[Vladimir]

Perhaps not an expensive amp but they do need an amp that can supply the power when the speaker dips into 3.2Ohms and perhaps lower as the temperature rises at louder volumes. If an amp cannot supply the power as required it will affect sound quality. So you do need to ensure your amp/speaker choice matches with your room size and how loud you intend to play your music.

At what frequency is the 3.2ohm dip? Anything beyond 80-100Hz will suck milliwatts and milliamps of current.

Nothing bellow 4 ohms according to JA's measurments. Any 4 ohm capable amp will have no issues.

 

[Vladimir]

Mmmm.......*scratch_one-s_head*

The B3131a is not a particularly good speaker, even of it's 'type', the cheap ribbon tweeter can sound disconnected and the big bass drive gives it a 'shouty' quality in the midrange, it goes quite loud, has plenty of bass but in every other the smaller B3130 is better, as indeed are the Presonus Eris, Yamaha HS and Equator models.

Interestingly, the things that makes all these speakers so impressive, clarity, punch, dynamics, are the very things that a better amplifier brings to the Kefs.

I accept that the Kefs plus amplifier will be pretty pricey but there is a level of ease and refinement that the cheaper pro monitors can't really match, though were you to spend around the £1k range you would be getting very close indeed for around half the price.

Any Accuton or Vitavox drivers inside the KEF LS50 that I haven't heard of? Refinement in budget domestic Hi-Fi that pro monitors can't really match?

I haven't heard praise about Avalons and Accuphase as much as I've read prostrating about bookshelf speakers and desktop amps on this forum. What happened to real hi-fi gear?

 

[Esra]

Perhaps not an expensive amp but they do need an amp that can supply the power when the speaker dips into 3.2Ohms and perhaps lower as the temperature rises at louder volumes. If an amp cannot supply the power as required it will affect sound quality. So you do need to ensure your amp/speaker choice matches with your room size and how loud you intend to play your music.

At what frequency is the 3.2ohm dip? Anything beyond 80-100Hz will suck milliwatts and milliamps of current.

Nothing bellow 4 ohms according to JA's measurments. Any 4 ohm capable amp will have no issues.

Well nobody of us saw Jesus personally?Some believe,some don´t.They need clean (neutral) sounding amps and ideally at the same time controlled power to pump out the max from their small driver while keeping it under control.That´s why people talking about demanding amps.I am sure they are initially not designed to use them that way,but it works.Place them right , feed them with quality and there is no way someone will be not impressed how deep they can reach and stay clean.