KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[78finn]

I think the problem here is the amp you have them pared with, the size of the room you have them in and maybe a lack of a decent stand...are you using stands?

to quote What HiFi

"Given a little space to breathe and mounted on a pair of solid stands these monitors sound terrific. The first thing that strikes us is the quality of the bass performance"

So if you think that your system is lacking bass...this is probably why. Under negatives in the What HiFi review, they list demanding on partnering hardware. I'm not sure about your amps spec, but this might be an issue.

If I were you, I would try and find a delaer that has them partnered up to an appropriate system in a room where they sound incredible. You can then work backwards.

Borrow a mates amp, put them in a bigger room, see if you can lay your hands on some stands...and try every combo until something clicks.

I think really the solution is to take them back and get a speaker that is ideally suited to smaller rooms and can produce the bass you like. I have small room and have a pair of Wharfedale 9.2's (the 9.1's bigger brother). The bass is BIG but tight even at low volumes and it isn't a fussy speaker when it comes to position or stand pairing. You can pick these up cheap now to

 

[cannibal_ox77]

This was interesting reading. I'd heard the LS50's before and been very impressed, but had a proper demo not too long ago with my own choice of reference tracks alongside the R500 and Q-Acoustics Concept 40. Have to say in that company I was blown away by the LS50's. It was the R500's I wanted to hear primarily (tannoy precision 6.2's weren't available in store), but I was ultimately left feeling underwhelmed given their price tag. I thought the Concept 40's were the better value for money at £500 less. But regardless of price, in that room and that setup (audiolab 8200cd, marantz pm8005) the LS50's blew both out of the water for my ears in every respect, I've never heard any component live up to the hype in the way the LS50 did. I certainly didn't feel a lack of bass or scale as it filled the averagely sized room noticeably better than the R500's. I started writing up my thoughts in detail but couldn't post it, and have been away since, but I'll get round to it when I'm back next week. Don't often see recommendation for Marantz 8000 series amps with these speakers but the supposedly difficult to drive LS50's sounded perfectly at ease to me with the 8005, confirming what I already thought about this amp having heard the combo before (albeit the pearl lite). When HiFi Newsreviewed the Pearl Lite they measured it's power as closer to 100/150w into 8/4ohm, rather than the more conservatively quoted 70/100w.

 

[shkumar4963]

I have a very similar experience with LS50. I bought them after reading reviews and then listening to them at the dealer. Thye sounded great, I mean great the first time and only very good the next. So i bought them knowing that I don't have unlimited time to listen to all speakers all day long.

I brought them home and set them up. They sound good but not great. There is nothing wrong with them that I can think of but they just don't move me. And I am blaming lack of bass for that but that may be a mistake. Now I am thinking if I should return them (probably can not), orsell them at a loss and tthen ry another pair that may again not sound that good at my home or tinker with other things and spend more money. I have following choices:

1. Get a sub (I am thinking Sunfire HRS8)

2. Get a new Amp (I have 100wpc Yamaha HT amp with .06% distortion ,RXV800)

3. Get better stands (I have Sanus Steel stands 24 in)

4. Mess with Dynamic Room Correction and room treatment (No DRC yet but played around with DSP settings that makes some difference and room is 14x20 with carpet and drapes)

5. Give up and get a "normal" speaker that is not that finicky. I am thinking KEF R300.

6. Be satisfied that that is the best sound there is for me without spending a lot more time.

I need help to take the best course of action. I do note that better recordings from Chesky records like Rebecca Pidgeon with Spanish Harlem, Ana Caram with Grandma's hand etc. sound a bit better than my other recordings. Now I can not change the songs I like so if this speaker only works with some recordings then I need another speaker. Also if the recording is very busy with a lot going on, like the Royal March, it does not sound that well in these speakers

 

[Esra]

I think your weakest link is your RXV 800 which is not good enough to show what your speakers really can do.To find out you maybe can loan a handy NAD D3020 better 7050 from your dealer.The sound won´t get much better than with these until you are prepared to invest a lot more,so it is a good reference what you can expect for reasonable money.

If you still miss something i would change speakers.Of course you could add also a sub ; your room is about 25-26 sqm i don´t think you necessary need one depending on the music you like.It would open up the sound more and add the missing 1-1,5 octave which the LS50 are physicly not able to produce.If you consider adding a sub in long term i would go for two smaller sealed subs (like Rel T-Zero,B&W 608,SVS SB1000) if you like to listen to music and won´t use them mainly for movies.The LS50 need room around them to sound best.Try at least 50 cm from wall at the back and 70 cm to the sides.

 

[Beppep]

From my point of view this is a clear example of how British company cannot make decent speakers on price range up to 800£. Most of kef are built with plastic materials and glossy colors, sound is totally artificial from my point of view, same situation I had with Monitor A silver 2 that I returned yesterday and B&W 600 series I previously owned. Sometimes I have the impression that this site support only English companies that's why the review are always positive.Went to Sevenoaks store yesterday looking for Dali speakers, they told me English people are not buying this brand even if it sounds better than B&w and expecially KEF, well I was not surprise at all..good for design but as quality other markets made better stuff

 

[BigH]

I have a very similar experience with LS50. I bought them after reading reviews and then listening to them at the dealer. Thye sounded great, I mean great the first time and only very good the next. So i bought them knowing that I don't have unlimited time to listen to all speakers all day long.

I brought them home and set them up. They sound good but not great. There is nothing wrong with them that I can think of but they just don't move me. And I am blaming lack of bass for that but that may be a mistake. Now I am thinking if I should return them (probably can not), orsell them at a loss and tthen ry another pair that may again not sound that good at my home or tinker with other things and spend more money. I have following choices:

1. Get a sub (I am thinking Sunfire HRS8)

2. Get a new Amp (I have 100wpc Yamaha HT amp with .06% distortion ,RXV800)

3. Get better stands (I have Sanus Steel stands 24 in)

4. Mess with Dynamic Room Correction and room treatment (No DRC yet but played around with DSP settings that makes some difference and room is 14x20 with carpet and drapes)

5. Give up and get a "normal" speaker that is not that finicky. I am thinking KEF R300.

6. Be satisfied that that is the best sound there is for me without spending a lot more time.

I need help to take the best course of action. I do note that better recordings from Chesky records like Rebecca Pidgeon with Spanish Harlem, Ana Caram with Grandma's hand etc. sound a bit better than my other recordings. Now I can not change the songs I like so if this speaker only works with some recordings then I need another speaker. Also if the recording is very busy with a lot going on, like the Royal March, it does not sound that well in these speakers

i think it's the amp. What amp did you hear at the dealers? I think ls50s do benefit from decent amplification. If you can take your amp to your dealer and then try some other amps I would. Of course it could be your room.

 

[BigH]

From my point of view this is a clear example of how British company cannot make decent speakers on price range up to 800£. Most of kef are built with plastic materials and glossy colors, sound is totally artificial from my point of view, same situation I had with Monitor A silver 2 that I returned yesterday and B&W 600 series I previously owned. Sometimes I have the impression that this site support only English companies that's why the review are always positive.Went to Sevenoaks store yesterday looking for Dali speakers, they told me English people are not buying this brand even if it sounds better than B&w and expecially KEF, well I was not surprise at all..good for design but as quality other markets made better stuff

several issues I have with your post, Kef are they British, speakers are made in China? I don't agree about ls50s sounding artificial, what do you mean by that? As for Sevenoaks do they sell Dalis? Imo I would take what some dealers say with a pinch of salt.

 

[Frank Harvey]

From my point of view this is a clear example of how British company cannot make decent speakers on price range up to 800£. Most of kef are built with plastic materials and glossy colors, sound is totally artificial from my point of view, same situation I had with Monitor A silver 2 that I returned yesterday and B&W 600 series I previously owned.

Where's the plastic?! There's no more plastic in them than any other speaker that will use plastic for certain components (nothing of concern). Gloss finishes are applied to conventional cabinets used on every speaker on the planet, with various layers added and buffed to produce the deep gloss finish - don't confuse gloss finishes with plastic, which is something you'll find on budget speakers.

As for sound, they're far more accurate than many other speakers around their price point. Whether you like the sound they produce is another matter, and it has been agreed that their revealing nature isn't to everyone's taste.

Most British made loudspeakers are genearlly over £1000 nowadays anyway with the likes of ProAc, PMC, SPendor etc, as they can't compete with Chinese built models in this price range. The LS50 is built in KEF's Chinese factory in order to keep costs down, otherwise it'd be nearer twice the price for that quality of build and finish! I recommend you read the white paper: http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf

I think you should have spent a little more time auditioning them, and comparing them to other models, which you may well prefer. Have you allowed them to run in? Most quality speakers can take a little while to settle down.

Went to Sevenoaks store yesterday looking for Dali speakers, they told me English people are not buying this brand even if it sounds better than B&w and expecially KEF, well I was not surprise at all..good for design but as quality other markets made better stuff

They don't have a Dali account.

 

[Vladimir]

I asure you no one will censor your recommendations of non-english brands. Feel free to share your experience and opinion.
IMO Marantz, Rotel, Dali and NAD are frequently recommended and loved on this forum and neither are english brands.
I sometimes recommend north american brands that fall on deaf ears but I'm not bothered. I understand people want the famous british hifi experience and that is why they come here for advice.

 

[BigH]

I asure you no one will censor your recommendations of non-english brands. Feel free to share your experience and opinion. IMO Marantz, Rotel, Dali and NAD are frequently recommended and loved on this forum and neither are english brands. I sometimes recommend north american brands that fall on deaf ears but I'm not bothered. I understand people want the famous british hifi experience and that is why they come here for advice.

i think a lot of the problem is people don't know about many foreign products as they are not common here. Some get recommended like Totems but they are hard to audition, also the prices do seem higher here so that may put off dealers stocking them. Just like uk speakers in USA tend to be more expensive than here.

 

[Vladimir]

Budget UK gear of non-exemplary build quality and performance is not only more expensive in the US (for obvious reasons), but it is treated as holy grail exotica. Something that will never happen the other way round.

 

[unsleepable]

Budget UK gear of non-exemplary build quality and performance is not only more expensive in the US (for obvious reasons), but it is treated as holy grail exotica. Something that will never happen the other way round.

Well, the EU is a big producer of hi-fi equipment, and therefore applies duties to imports to protect the local markets. This benefits the UK mostly, but also other countries. In reciprocation, any other country that also produces hi-fi equipment will apply duties to imports from the EU. So logic dictates that between duties and other added costs, prices of English hi-fi will get noticeably higher in the US.

Still, what amazes me is when it's the other way around. Look at Musical Fidelity for example. Its M1PWR sells in amazon.co.uk for £448, and in amazon.com for $489. At the current exchange rate, that's more than 30% cheaper—a few months back the difference used to be even higher as the price of the M1PWR has gone down. In Germany for example, it sells for ~ €1,000, which is > 78% more expensive than in the UK, and > 150% than in the US *shok* Makes me wonder about the margins with which some vendors work, but if the M1PWR sells in the US for €390, the production cost must be less than €175.

 

[shkumar4963]

I think your weakest link is your RXV 800 which is not good enough to show what your speakers really can do.To find out you maybe can loan a handy NAD D3020 better 7050 from your dealer.The sound won´t get much better than with these until you are prepared to invest a lot more,so it is a good reference what you can expect for reasonable money.

If you still miss something i would change speakers.Of course you could add also a sub ; your room is about 25-26 sqm i don´t think you necessary need one depending on the music you like.It would open up the sound more and add the missing 1-1,5 octave which the LS50 are physicly not able to produce.If you consider adding a sub in long term i would go for two smaller sealed subs (like Rel T-Zero,B&W 608,SVS SB1000) if you like to listen to music and won´t use them mainly for movies.The LS50 need room around them to sound best.Try at least 50 cm from wall at the back and 70 cm to the sides.

I will try taking my Amplifier to the dealer who sold me LS50. The problem is that he does not have R300 to demo and my audio memory is not good enough that I can compare two speakers at two different dealers with two different setups. What do you think about Sunfire sealed subs (HRS8 with 1000 watt amp)? My dealer recommends them highly. By the way I do have them 50 cm from the back and 70 cm from the sides.

Also what do you think about messing with REW and DRC?

 

[Beppep]

several issues I have with your post, Kef are they British, speakers are made in China? I don't agree about ls50s sounding artificial, what do you mean by that? As for Sevenoaks do they sell Dalis? Imo I would take what some dealers say with a pinch of salt.

Never said that Sevenoaks sell Dali, they used to, but due to Local (Uk) market demand they manage mostly local brands.

I asure you no one will censor your recommendations of non-english brands. Feel free to share your experience and opinion. IMO Marantz, Rotel, Dali and NAD are frequently recommended and loved on this forum and neither are english brands. I sometimes recommend north american brands that fall on deaf ears but I'm not bothered. I understand people want the famous british hifi experience and that is why they come here for advice.

Thanks, that make this a quality forum.

Well, this is true.. people come here to get info about British stuff, as in Uk are the most sold...is also true that when they mentioned B&W,Kef etc is like to talk about company that can teach other EU competitors in terms of sound and this is funny for me, but if I think about the quality of food and wine u get in UK..I am not surprised, people eat and drink everything and I stop here otherwise I can write for one h.

I think that UK big brands are little bit over-priced for the quality they offer, considering as well the "assembly" in China that increase profit margin for the producer, what you pay "on top" is marketing.

I deal with toothbrushes everyday, my plant is in China, so I cannot say that my company (a big one in pharma) produces **** stuff, quality is very high, however I prefer to give my money to company who kept production in EU, this is ethic.

To stay in topic I was really pleased that some shop in Uk still sell EU products, as Focal (French) and Dynaudio (DK). I hope that we can still see review of non UK products in the future as they become more and more rare.

 

[BigH]

several issues I have with your post, Kef are they British, speakers are made in China? I don't agree about ls50s sounding artificial, what do you mean by that? As for Sevenoaks do they sell Dalis? Imo I would take what some dealers say with a pinch of salt.

Never said that Sevenoaks sell Dali, they used to, but due to Local (Uk) market demand they manage mostly local brands.

I asure you no one will censor your recommendations of non-english brands. Feel free to share your experience and opinion. IMO Marantz, Rotel, Dali and NAD are frequently recommended and loved on this forum and neither are english brands. I sometimes recommend north american brands that fall on deaf ears but I'm not bothered. I understand people want the famous british hifi experience and that is why they come here for advice.

Thanks, that make this a quality forum.

Well, this is true.. people come here to get info about British stuff, as in Uk are the most sold...is also true that when they mentioned B&W,Kef etc is like to talk about company that can teach other EU competitors in terms of sound and this is funny for me, but if I think about the quality of food and wine u get in UK..I am not surprised, people eat and drink everything and I stop here otherwise I can write for one h.

I think that UK big brands are little bit over-priced for the quality they offer, considering as well the "assembly" in China that increase profit margin for the producer, what you pay "on top" is marketing.

I deal with toothbrushes everyday, my plant is in China, so I cannot say that my company (a big one in pharma) produces **** stuff, quality is very high, however I prefer to give my money to company who kept production in EU, this is ethic.

To stay in topic I was really pleased that some shop in Uk still sell EU products, as Focal (French) and Dynaudio (DK). I hope that we can still see review of non UK products in the future as they become more and more rare.

I never said you said Sevenoaks sell Dalis, did you not see the ? Anywy you seem to have missed my point. There are lots of reviews of non UK gear, probably more Dali reviews than any other speaker brand.

 

[Esra]

First of all before you think about swapping your speakers you should really take one of these mentioned NAD amps to your home for demo because your LS50 are really great speakers,they just can´t show you because of your Yamaha.It´s good you have the place to position them correctly and have space to play with.

And pls do the demo at your place!

I used to have a Sunfire sub TS-EQ 12 for homecinema myself which was very good for music too but I couldn´t justify its price tag,so I sold it.But at time i didn´t know i would buy Kef LS50.I have no other experience with other Sunfire subs,so I can´t say anything about the HRS 8.I prefer listen to music without a sub if possible but it is in general no problem imo. if integrated well (which is difficult) and the sub is suitable for music.Some music do profit from a sub as the LS50 are not fullrange speakers.

I would not mess around with REW and DRC if not absolutely necessary,it´s very time intensive and you need good, expensive equipment and knowledge to use them properly,but these are powerfull tools if you can´t get things right by your own.Some dealers offer service analyzing your room and helping you to optimize it.

I am sure you will get decent results once you changed your amp,so don´t worry.If not you will need other speakers and still an other amp.There is no rule that LS50 have to be liked from everyone just because it has many good reviews.

 

[shkumar4963]

Thanks Isra. Love to hear from others as well.

I will definitely spend on Amp before spending on Sub. I have a friend who can get me good price on new Marantz. Any Marantz that you would recommend? New Marantz with 60 wpc (PM6005) is an option. I also have craiglist or Ebay option on buying used NAD (about 10 years old). Any problem in buying used Amp. Has the technology changed enough in 10 years?

Another option is to buy just the amp and use Yamaha's DAC and preamp. Or would you recommend buying a new integrated amp?

Regarding Sunfire Sub, it is sealed design, 8 inch, small foot print with 1000 watt amp.

 

[Frank Harvey]

For me, Sunfire subs tend to be "one note wonders". They go loud, surprisingly loud for their size, but they never really feel like they cover the whole sub bass range. Also, due to the force of the long throw driver, their subs tend to move around rather than sitting still. For a sub to do what it is intended to do, it needs to be stable, with as little physical movement as possible with regards to the cabinet.

 

[shkumar4963]

Esra:

I see that you have just bought R900 speakers. How are they? How do they compare with LS50 + sub combination? As you remembre my other option was to return LS50 (if I can return them) then buy R300 which I feel will be like R900 with a bit less extension. I have listen to them next to R700 and they do sound similar. But never heard them next to LS50.

 

[Esra]

Well I received the R900 yesterday and they will be used in a much bigger room as the other one i have my dedicated listening room/ homecinema with Kef LS50.

The Kef LS50 don´t work on their own in that big room and need sub(s) and then still doubt if they can paint a big full bodied picture in that big room.I tried with my JBL 8400 LP sub and was not quite satisfied as I had to set the crossover around 100-120 HZ.That means I would need two very good subs,they don´t come cheap.In my other room i can set crossover easily at 50HZ.So I decided to go with R900 first,otherwise Kef Company would just sell LS50 with subs ;-).These were my thoughts initially and to be honest I was more impressed with the LS50 first time.The R900 is a true smooth fullrange speaker,def. no need for subs for music even in a big room like that.Sound is promising,will see. On the other hand the R900 wouldn´t work in the smaller room.I am absolutely convinced with the LS50 and they are keepers for that smaller room.

As written before,if i were you I would first want to see what LS50 can do,the NAD are a good choice to see what they can do although i wouldn´t buy them.IMO. R300 is not a match to LS50 in the right room.I don´t think Marantz 6005 will be justice for both either,with Kef imo.a Pioneer A50 is a better choice at this range and if you need a Dac then you can consider A70.If it had to be Marantz I would consider 8005 as minimum in your room just reading the specs.

 

[shkumar4963]

Local craigslist has a NAD C350 for $200. Or I can go upto Marantz pm8005. Like I said my dealer can get me good price on Marantz to compared to NAD.

 

[shkumar4963]

You are right. I just saw frequency response for sunfire Atmos XT and found it to be very peaky at about 50 hz. Hopefully I can find the response for sds 12 as well soon.

 

[Freddy58]

IMO. R300 is not a match to LS50 in the right room.

A funny thing, I didn't think much of the LS50's, and in the end I went for the R300's.

 

[davedotco]

IMO. R300 is not a match to LS50 in the right room.

A funny thing, I didn't think much of the LS50's, and in the end I went for the R300's.

This is classic and a reason why I feel that the 'buy what you like' philosophy is wrongheaded, particularly when taken to extremes.

I appreciate that measurements can be hugely misleading too and manufacturers specs are mostly useless, but I feel that a decent grounding in the way music is produced and replayed in the home can help give you an anchor point that helps you make choices that are genuinly based on qualitative differences.

Most hi-fi, particularly speakers, are chosen on quantitive differences, more bass, less bass, bright treble, dull treble etc etc, and of course these are factors that are hugely influenced by rooms, positioning and similar factors. In many cases they make little difference as the user adjusts to the changed balance in a process known as running in.

If you can, when auditioning new equipment you need to get past these more of this, less of that kind of judgements and find a way to listen that shows you how well or otherwise the music is being played.

Simple example, I was demoing a better preamp to a customer, so we started off with his preamp in the system and played a piece that had an acoustic guitar intro.

Wow, I was impressed, the notes were so crisp and clear that I was thinking that this would be a great track for me to play on my guitar, it was so easy to follow I was sure I could do that.

I then substituted the 'better' preamp and played it again, really disappointing, for me anyway......! As I realised that I could practice the rest of my life and never be able to play to that level, the difference in the quality of the guitar playing was astonishing, a huge qualitative improvement that was made by the better pre-amp.

 

[Esra]

Exactly Ls50 is about quality sound.The only speaker < 8k i have found similar impressive is Magnepan 1.7,but again,they need quality (dark) power and are not fullband,even more difficult to integrate a subwoofer but work in bigger rooms better than LS50.Very directional presentation and also need a lot of space to the back.Def. not a speaker for everyone.If you want LS50 for big rooms with low end extension the only proper way is to upgrade to Kef Blade as I don´t think R and Reference Series are comparable.