KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[CnoEvil]

Anyway yesterday my stands arrived (Partington Super Dreadnoughts). The difference is incredible, I was surprised it made that much difference. The LS50 have such an expansive sound that fills the room. Gone was the small sounding boxiness! Vocals sound so much more realistic than on the Q500s. They produce a good amount of bass, but as I think David said, you hear the texture and character of the bass. The treble is refined and detailed but not in your face.

So to summarise, the LS50 is a fantastic speaker but it needs care: good stands, good positioning, decent amplification. To the OP who's mates said their Ford Fiesta produces more bass, well that just shows how dumb you and your friends are. If you want masses of sub bass, buy a sub or get Cerwin Vega speakers! The LS50 is for music lovers who like a natural, realistic and accurate sound that you can enjoy for hours on end.

Merry Christmas!

I'm delighted that your attention to detail has paid off......and it would appear that you have now witnessed the Jekyell and Hyde nature of these speakers.

 

[wilro15]

Thanks CnoEvil. I owe something to you and other guys on here for your advice, experience and common sense. I have picked up a lot of useful information in how to get the best out of my system. However I am now eyeing up a more powerful amplifier - upgraditis again!

Merry Christmas!

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks CnoEvil. I owe something to you and other guys on here for your advice, experience and common sense. I have picked up a lot of useful information in how to get the best out of my system. However I am now eyeing up a more powerful amplifier - upgraditis again!

Merry Christmas!

You should try a Linn Majik DSM. :twisted:

 

[pauln]

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts.

Most good Class A amps will achieve this, and my amp has been measured getting very, very close to it.

If you say so.

No, the independent measurements say so.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to you.

:beer: :beer:

And a merry Christmas to you too and everyone else here.

I'd be interested to see those measurements - the perfect amplifier has been made at last! What's next - perpetual motion?

 

[Electro]

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts.

Most good Class A amps will achieve this, and my amp has been measured getting very, very close to it.

If you say so.

No, the independent measurements say so.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to you.

:beer: :beer:

And a merry Christmas to you too and everyone else here.

I'd be interested to see those measurements - the perfect amplifier has been made at last! What's next - perpetual motion?

Is this the perfect amp then .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/poweramp/aw250r.html

Happy Christmas :cheers:

 

[pauln]

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts.

Most good Class A amps will achieve this, and my amp has been measured getting very, very close to it.

If you say so.

No, the independent measurements say so.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to you.

:beer: :beer:

And a merry Christmas to you too and everyone else here.

I'd be interested to see those measurements - the perfect amplifier has been made at last! What's next - perpetual motion?

Is this the perfect amp then .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/poweramp/aw250r.html

Happy Christmas :cheers:

That sounds fantastic and it's a real world amp making no physics defying claims to double its power as impedance halves:
8 ohms2 x 250 W4 ohms2 x 380 W2 ohms2 x 625 W1 ohms2 x 1100 W
Probably expensive though.

Anyhow, this has nothing to do with the Kefs so I'll leave it alone now and it is Xmas Eve after all.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'd be interested to see those measurements - the perfect amplifier has been made at last! What's next - perpetual motion?

Here are a couple for your perusal: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/amplifiers/47-transistor/208-musical-fidelity-ams-35i.html?start=3

and (see Lab Test Report): http://www.bm.rs/Musical%20Fidelity/Musical%20Fidelity%20AMS-35i%20-%20Australian%20HiFi.pdf

 

[pauln]

I'd be interested to see those measurements - the perfect amplifier has been made at last! What's next - perpetual motion?

Here are a couple for your perusal:.

[Couldn't keep your links because of the fu(k1ng spam filter.]

What it says on that lab test report is this:

"The Musical Fidelity AMS35i didn’t quite

achieve a doubling of power output when the

load impedance was halved (the theoretical

ideal) but it certainly came within a whisker,"

Note that part about theoretical ideal. That amp is a great example of engineering and comes very close to achieving the ideal but it can't do the impossible and to get so close costs a lot of money - more than most people would be willing to pay. Much better surely to get something that produces 200W at 8 Ohms and 300W at 4 Ohms? Plenty of power and much more easily achieved although maybe not in class A.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I blame the internet/dealers who are only interested in shifting as many units as they can.

With regards to the OP's Yamaha A3090, yes, on paper it seemed to be very powerful at 80w/channel at 8ohms. But remember this is a 15 year old amp, and at that time AV amps were not too deft with stereo music playback.

Hi manicm

I've had a quick look and I have yet to find a site which shows speakers that have a click to buy option which also highlights the importance (particularly useful for anyone unaware) regarding the quality of amplification required. So far all I've seen is the opportunity taken for add on sales (stands, cables, etc.) and finance.

Btw, as I've said before the DSP-A3090 has perfectly good two channel performance and one which i prefer over some dedicated modern stereo amplifiers.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

[Couldn't keep your links because of the fu(k1ng spam filter.]

What it says on that lab test report is this:

"The Musical Fidelity AMS35i didn’t quite

achieve a doubling of power output when the

load impedance was halved (the theoretical

ideal) but it certainly came within a whisker,"

Note that part about theoretical ideal. That amp is a great example of engineering and comes very close to achieving the ideal but it can't do the impossible and to get so close costs a lot of money - more than most people would be willing to pay. Much better surely to get something that produces 200W at 8 Ohms and 300W at 4 Ohms? Plenty of power and much more easily achieved although maybe not in class A.

The other test report from HFW said: "and working into a 4 Ohm load the AMS35i perfectly doubles its power to 64 Watts".

I'm only making the point to show it can be done, rather than everyone should try and achieve it......there are good reasons for going Class A despite its apparent lack of power, though there are also good reasons for avoiding it, which includes cost.

Two more Class A amps that should achieve it are

Accuphase E-600

[based on the EIA RS-490 test standard]

8 Ohms - 30W

4 Ohms - 60W

2 Ohms - 120W

1 Ohm - 150W

Accuphase also make great AB amps, where the E-460 achieves 180W @ 8 Ohms and 260W into 4 Ohms

Luxman L 590-A11

8 Ohms - 30W

4 Ohms - 60W

 

[Frank Harvey]

I blame the internet/dealers who are only interested in shifting as many units as they can.

I've had a quick look and I have yet to find a site which shows speakers that have a click to buy option which also highlights the importance (particularly useful for anyone unaware) regarding the quality of amplification required.

The issue is there are too many variables. You can't just post up on the web page that the speakers require a 50wpc amplifier, as some 50wpc amplifiers won't get the job done properly. Although some dealers do post up the specifications, which can be used as a rough guide.

Many of the products available online are online for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is whether the manufacturer allows a product to be sold online. If they don't, this means potential buyers will have to visit a store to audition/buy, which is a good thing, as suitability with existing equipment will be recommended by the dealer. The downside is that many people get irate when they can't order a product they want on the internet or over the phone.

If they do allow the product to be sold online, then of course, any dealer is going to offer that product on their website - if they don't, someone else will. Nowadays, some dealers can't be giving away potential sales to others. Of course, offering it online, you have to assume the buyer has done their homework and knows what they're buying. The downside is that those that have done their homework may have done so at another dealer, and are buying it from somewhere else for whatever reason. The dealer that loses out may have focused many hours on that customer, as well as time on emails and phone calls.

And let's not pretend here - a click-to-buy website is there to sell as many products as it can.

I feel the blame can be dumped on all three - the manufacturer, the dealer, and the buyer. Manufacturers allow certain products to be bought mail order, despite them being products that needs care in system matching. Dealers (who are offering these products on their website because the manufacturer allows them to) are offering these products with little education to the buyer. And the buyer (who is buying online because the dealer allows them to) isn't doing sufficient homework to ensure it is the right product for them, or are buying based on price.

Personally, I think any product over £500 shouldn't be available to buy online - it should be an in store audition and purchase, where they can get all the info they need from their dealer, face to face. This would also cut down on the amount of users who use one dealer's time and facilities and order online elsewhere because they're doing it a tenner cheaper.

With regards to the OP's Yamaha A3090, yes, on paper it seemed to be very powerful at 80w/channel at 8ohms. But remember this is a 15 year old amp, and at that time AV amps were not too deft with stereo music playback.

Agreed. This amp is a good 15 years old now, and wasn't that great at music in its day, let alone now. Other than the power difference, a good budget amplifier will probably outshine it regarding quality. A Marantz PM6004/6005 would be a good example.

 

[Native_bon]

The piont most forget is that some people may not like the sound every says sounds good to them?.. Secondly I have upgraded my HIFI system many a time. Only to take it to several shops and finally found out it was room acoustics all along!! Each shop i went to with the equipment sound just fine, but went home set it back up & just sounded horrible...

I got a pair of Bostoin acoustics M340 & now my system has never sounded better! Yes I did the hard work of buying & moving speakers to audition at home. Immedialately I heard the first few seconds I said this is it.

Always audition at home simples!!

 

[paulhh1967]

So to summarise, the LS50 is a fantastic speaker but it needs care: good stands, good positioning, decent amplification. To the OP who's mates said their Ford Fiesta produces more bass, well that just shows how dumb you and your friends are. If you want masses of sub bass, buy a sub or get Cerwin Vega speakers! The LS50 is for music lovers who like a natural, realistic and accurate sound that you can enjoy for hours on end.

+1

Give them a good heavy stand, let's say Dreadnoughts (fill them 3/4 with birdsand or Atabites) or similar good stand. Toe them in a little bit:; less then 10 degrees. Give them some space, and with a decent amp they will sound fantastic. If they sound dull, shrill, not open, harsh etc etc...there's something wrong with the set-up o/w system.

 

[TrevC]

Define "proper bass".

I want to hear and feel the low notes of the keyboard on Genesis Firth of Fifth, the heartbeat on DSOTM, The deep notes on Tuung Soup and the bass notes of the organ rumbling through Saint Saens organ symphony. None of those are heard properly with a small standmount speaker that has no sub.

Proper bass.

And this is it. The definition of 'proper bass' is open to interpretation, and also personal preference.

Other than depth and intensity, there's also detail in bass too. When properly set up, this is what the LS50s can do that many others can't - they allow you to hear real texture in bass, which larger speakers generally can't do (not on the same sort of budget anyway). ATC's SCM11 and SCM19 would also be examples of speakers that can reproduce subtleties in the bass region.

By the sounds of it, you're after a larger speaker, and one that can shift a hell of a lot more air than a 5" driver. I would suggest looking at Monitor Audio's outgoing RX2 or their replacements, the Silver 2. And if you're talking about using a subwoofer with them for accurate music reproduction, that's a whole other kettle of fish...

Bass "texture" is the higher harmonics being more obvious because a smaller speaker is incapable of fully reproducing the fundamental low note at the correct amplitude.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Bass "texture" is the higher harmonics being more obvious because a smaller speaker is incapable of fully reproducing the fundamental low note at the correct amplitude.

I agree, but this texture is still generally dealt with by the mid/bass driver, and bass texture is still something that many speakers can't convey. My statement (and previous statements) about good bass texture and capturing minute pitch changes still stands.

 

[alchemist 1]

Bass "texture" is the higher harmonics being more obvious because a smaller speaker is incapable of fully reproducing the fundamental low note at the correct amplitude.

I agree, but this texture is still generally dealt with by the mid/bass driver, and bass texture is still something that many speakers can't convey. My statement (and previous statements) about good bass texture and capturing minute pitch changes still stands.

I feel the LS50's produce a more balanced bass note, without dominating the whole presentation.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

If you want proper bass with these speakers a sub is required. They roll off fairly quickly after about 80Hz.

Hi TrevC

For lower and deeper bass (while retaining the LS50's) a sub is the way to go.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[tk1111]

So, I am interested in keeping the experiment going at home.

I have been playing the LS50 with the D 3020 over the past few days. Sounds is good, but I want to see if it can be improved with more power.

The amps that I am currently interested in testing (the ones that seems to fit my needs):

1. Bel Canto C5i

2. Simaudio 340i

3. HK 990

4. Rotel RA-1570

All integrated above come with phono / dac, and other than the Bel Canto, they are all rather powerful. 100W+

Form factor the Bel Canto is most interesting for me, but it might not be as powerful as I'd like.

Both the Bel Canto and the SimAudio don't offer tone management (which would be nice). There's also no connector between the pre/power, so it won't be as easy integrating a sub with highpass filter with these two.

The HK990 seems to offer everything that I would possibly need (including auto EQ), if only it wasn't SO big.

Would love to hear some opinion about this. I guess that I can always use speaker level input when connecting a sub, and I can get a way without tone control. However, if audio wise (phono input / dac / power) the HK990 / Rotel, than I guess that I should give them a try first.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I can't speak for the rest, but the Rotel 1570 is a cracking amp, and should show the NAD a clean pair of heels with the LS50s. Do let us know how you get on

 

[wilro15]

@tk1111 have you considered the NAD 356BEE DAC? Its got a oodles of power and a really good built in DAC. In the UK it can be had for £700.

I'm in the market for a DAC-enabled amp for my LS50s right now and the NAD looks like a good bet at the moment.

 

[BigH]

@tk1111 have you considered the NAD 356BEE DAC? Its got a oodles of power and a really good built in DAC. In the UK it can be had for £700.

I'm in the market for a DAC-enabled amp for my LS50s right now and the NAD looks like a good bet at the moment.

You can get the NAD for £599 from 7Oaks on ebay.

 

[tk1111]

@tk1111 have you considered the NAD 356BEE DAC? Its got a oodles of power and a really good built in DAC. In the UK it can be had for £700.

I'm in the market for a DAC-enabled amp for my LS50s right now and the NAD looks like a good bet at the moment.

The problem that I am having with the NAD is that from what I understand you need reach the back of the amp to switch between the DAC and the phono.

 

[wilro15]

@tk1111 Curious as to what happened? Did you find the ideal amplifier for your LS50s?

 

[coolascats]

I first bought the Arcam FMJ amplifier A19 along with the Kef LS 50 speakers using Chord Chameleon connects. I first auditioned the Kef R300’s with the FMJ. The R300’s are sharp, energetic, very detailed, with a kind of slightly bouncy bass, but a kind of quick, lightweight sound that I suspect may hurt my ears after a few hours playing. This is not a criticism of them because they do sound great, just not for me. These are speakers I imagine I would have bought in my twenties.
After a play through of my favourite music I changed to the Kef’s. Now in my late thirties, these speakers sound so right. The difference in tone, treble and bass was immediate. The bass really stands out for me. It is tight and controlled and keeps it’s pace with the music. Vocals sound sublime and throw themselves outward. The detailing is superb also. Listening to Hey you by Pink Floyd, I could hear the little inflection’s Of David Gilmour’s gravelly voice really come through effectively. Fleetwood Macs Oh Daddy was charged with emotion and the vocals merge well with the acoustic guitar, but strangely feel spaced perfectly within the mix.
I now listen to these speakers for hours on end with no ear ache. They are a well balanced speaker, not too bright, an even, refined sound, without at all sounding boring. A mature energy is what I feel with these when I listen to music across the board.
After three months of use (and I listen to them every day), they continue to surprise me with their lush sound. Listening to Goldfrapp’s Annabel has enourmous appeal. Her voice and the snap of consonants at the beginning and end of her dark, musical sentences are hauntingly beautiful to listen to. And this disc is spinning in a 12 year old Marantz 6000 cd player. Which brings me to the Naim cd5si.
Careful listening between the two shows subtle, but noticeable results. The undertones of Goldfrapp’s Annabel feel more distinct and thrown forward into the mix. The same can be said of the Doors, Riders on the storm. The bass drives the song while the ghostly echoes of Jim Morrison’s lyrics are that little bit more apparent in the Naim. The sound of this player definitely feels bigger and spacious, in an ever so subtle, but noticeable way. To my ears it sounds great with the Arcam FMJ and LS 50’s. These speakers have a direct, focused and open sound, very earthly and warm. It’s as if the two are spiritually connected, like soul mates. I love them. The build themselves is solid and they look and feel expensive, The highly polished black against the copper speakers are a beautiful compliment. The official rose gold colour is another way of saying they are copper coloured, but they had to say rose gold because of the 50th anniversary theme didn’t they. I don’t think their modern look is out of place in an a more traditional setting either.
One thing I have noticed with this system, or with any system for that matter is that a poor recorded album will show its weaknesses with this setup more than it would a cheaper system. I cannot recommend enough.
Beautiful, dynamic, detailed and open sound, Solid and controlled bass, These speakers seem spiritually connected, like soul mates

 

[wilro15]

Ditto what you say about poor quality recordings. I have really noticed this too.