KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[CnoEvil]

You're not coming over as arguementative , hope I'm not eithier , and I see nopoguy is living very happily with the d3020 and the LS50's so there you go .

What is confusing now when I think back is why he said he had a pair of somethings , I can't remember the speaker , at home that he could bring in on the friday or sat' if I wanted to come back , but I was flying home on the Sat and didn't fancey going shopping on black friday , the confusing part is why he didn't wire up a set of LS50's , maybe out of stock ?

Also maybe it's the 4 ohm part of the 4 ohm / 86 dB's he was worried about

James

It could be that not all 30Ws are created equal......WHF certainly think so when they say, "This little amplifier outputs just 30-watts per channel, but as with the original it sounds far more authoritative than that modest figure suggests."

 

[drummerman]

Isn't that the same with all speakers?

To a degree.

Some speakers are a lot fussier than others with regard to the stands they are placed on, and how much they reveal about the upstream equipment. I see the LS50s as mini-reference monitors. I know how good they are, as I can directly compare them with Kef Reference.

Like Gregvet, at times I am staggered at how "big" they can sound, and how large a soundstage they can conjure up......the fact that there are diametrically opposite descriptions of them, tells me how sensitive and neurotic they can be.

Don't doubt the competence of the LS50s. The only thing that puzzles me is that a £650 50 watt amp as the ideal partner. :? But then you are powering yours either thru a six grand amp or a high end receiver. No doubt my TB2s would sound a whole lot better a Leema Tucana.

If the LS50s are that tricky then the Leema Pulse, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian is a much better choice than a £650er.

I think perhaps there is a slight risk to elevate these little speakers to something they're not. I havent heard them but they are still a small volume stand mount with a very small driver, even more so considering that a considerable part is taken up by the tweeter part.

I am sure they are very good, most reviews can't be wrong, but these strike me as ideal for good amplifiers of most wattages, both high and relatively limited if high headroom/volume is not required.

Where a good sized, good quality full bandwidth floorstander will show up any deficiencies of an amplifiers ability to control drivers these little speakers will most likely not thus I can't see why decent amplifiers such as a Rega brio R or Nad's new £400 one can't be used.

I am always a little weary about 'cult status' products, especially when they have only been launched recently.

I must make the effort and hear a pair. Until then I can only guess of course.

regards

 

[tk1111]

To a degree.

Some speakers are a lot fussier than others with regard to the stands they are placed on, and how much they reveal about the upstream equipment. I see the LS50s as mini-reference monitors. I know how good they are, as I can directly compare them with Kef Reference.

Like Gregvet, at times I am staggered at how "big" they can sound, and how large a soundstage they can conjure up......the fact that there are diametrically opposite descriptions of them, tells me how sensitive and neurotic they can be.

Ok, I understand that we're dealing with something very subjective, and while we all enjoy the sharing of opinion, I'd interesting in increasing my understanding of what affects sounds quality.

From my understanding, these are the factors that affect sound (not in order):

1. Source / recording

2. Electornics / cables

3. Speaker / placement

4. Room Accoustic

Furthermore, I'm trying to understand what might affect the difference in experience that some had with LS50 vs mine. Is it simply a question of "taste" or is it possible to isolate the factor that can be attributed to that difference.

1. My Source: Mac mini with 24bit FLACS uncompressed - I doubt that a better source will make can make radical improvement.

2. Electornics: Decco2 45W Integrated amp connected with optical cable to the mac mini <--- Not sure about that

3. Speaker: new LS50 placed on a heavy cabint 50cm away from the wall.

4. Room Accoustic - while the room is 20sqft x 20 sqrft, I am sitting really close to the speakers. My understanding that at such distance room accoustic doesn't play much of a difference.

At the end of day, i am ot pleased with the sound quality coming out of the speakers, and I am trying to understand if the above or a combination of can affect the sound signature enough, or is it simply that the speaker is not for me.

The biggest question, which I have yet to see answered, is what's the impact of "underpowered" amp on speakers, when played in low volume.

Some claim that as long as you're playing at a volume where the spekaers don't clip/distort, upgrading wattage will have 0 impact. Other say otherwise.

More specifically, we've seen people here comment about their satisfaction with Arcam A19, Cyrus, and NAD D3020 (neither of which is a super 200W amps), while others have suggested that given the lack of power, and the KEF inefficiency, the sound quality is not optimal.

<br>

Is it been proven that a more powerful integrated (pre/power) can alter the sound signiture of a speakers? We're talking about making a change that significant enough to change someone perception of the speaker from "This speakers doens't sound special compared to 10 other speakers that I heard to "WOW, this speaker is the best speaker that I have yet to experience". Would placing the speakers on a stand make this difference? Putting them in a small room? Combination of all 3?

I understand that this might lead to a can of worms, and it's all about the topic of system matching. I'd still like to hear if such claim have been validated, because if not, switching amps would only waste time and money, where instead one should take care of room accoustic or seek speakers that sounds great even when connected to shitty, but well operated amp.

Love to hear your opinions, and I am really excited that I am going to try the Bel Canto C5i, NAD D3020, Arcam and SimAudio tomorrow. While I won't try them all with the KEF, at least I'll get to hear how they sound like with ineffcient speakers. Hopefully I'd be able to better understad this.

 

[CnoEvil]

@ tk1111

- Your list of what can effect the sound, is imo, spot on.

- Personal preference always comes into it; but if you hear them when they are substantially compromised, it is impossible to make a proper judgement.

- IME These speakers take a little volume to come alive.

- An underpowered amp can make them sound bright, thin, muddled and undynamic .....but a poor source can also cause this

- It's the quality of the Wattage that counts, not the quantity. If an amp has a good power supply, it has enough current to double its power as the impedance of the speaker halves eg. 80W @ 8 Ohms and 160W @ 4 Ohms and even 320W @ 2 Ohms. Electrocompaniet and Musical Fidelity are good at this.

- The better the amp, the better they will sound.....but there is diminishing returns to take account of, so you have to decide where that point is for you, in your situation.

- Synergy between amp / speakers is key. Known matches are Sugden / Proac; Electrocompaniet / PMC; Arcam / Kef

- Good work getting the system right can substantially be undone with poor room acoustics, system set-up, and speaker placement.

- Matching the right stands to the speaker (height / consruction etc) is IME pretty crucial.

- A small speaker can sound weedy in a room that's too big, and conversely a speaker that is too big for the room its in, can overpower it.

- It is your opinion of these amps that really matter, but I would be hopeful that you will like the Bel Canto.

 

[drummerman]

- It's the quality of the Wattage that counts, not the quantity. If an amp has a good power supply, it has enough current to double its power as the impedance of the speaker halves eg. 80W @ 8 Ohms and 160W @ 4 Ohms and even 320W @ 2 Ohms. Electrocompaniet and Musical Fidelity are good at this.

There's a lot of confusion about this issue. Sure, there are amplifiers that can double power into ever decreasing loads but do you really need an arcwelder?

Imho, dynamic headroom and/or voltage swing rather than just current is more important. Manufacturers of 'high end' equipment need something to sell, quite often current is the USP. Do you need it? If you are in the habit of changing your speakers every week and use models of vastly differing and complicated load characteristics and want 'some' consistency ... then probably yes. For the majority of us (and the majority of modern speakers) which have relatively benign characteristics compared to say the Apogee's of yesteryear, voltage swing is arguably more important.

regards

 

[CnoEvil]

There's a lot of confusion about this issue. Sure, there are amplifiers that can double power into ever decreasing loads but do you really need an arcwelder?

Imho, dynamic headroom and/or voltage swing rather than just current is more important. Manufacturers of 'high end' equipment need something to sell, quite often current is the USP. Do you need it? If you are in the habit of changing your speakers every week and use models of vastly differing and complicated load characteristics and want 'some' consistency ... then probably yes. For the majority of us (and the majority of modern speakers) which have relatively benign characteristics compared to say the Apogee's of yesteryear, voltage swing is arguably more important.

regards

I was really illustrating a point, rather than insisting that an amp "has" to double its power down to 2 Ohms.....though quite a lot of modern speakers go down to below 4 Ohms. It is often a good benchmark to see what an amp's power is into 8, and then 4 Ohms.

For example, the Bel Canto he is looking at, has 60W into 8 Ohms and 120W into 4 Ohms, which along with a peak output current of 30A, and being stable down to 3 Ohms, mean it should be up to the job.

I suppose whether you need it depends on the speakers that you are driving and whether the amp has a fairly low wattage into 8 Ohms to start with.

 

[drummerman]

There's a lot of confusion about this issue. Sure, there are amplifiers that can double power into ever decreasing loads but do you really need an arcwelder?

Imho, dynamic headroom and/or voltage swing rather than just current is more important. Manufacturers of 'high end' equipment need something to sell, quite often current is the USP. Do you need it? If you are in the habit of changing your speakers every week and use models of vastly differing and complicated load characteristics and want 'some' consistency ... then probably yes. For the majority of us (and the majority of modern speakers) which have relatively benign characteristics compared to say the Apogee's of yesteryear, voltage swing is arguably more important.

regards

I was really illustrating a point, rather than insisting that an amp "has" to double its power down to 2 Ohms.....though quite a lot of modern speakers go down to below 4 Ohms. It is often a good benchmark to see what an amp's power is into 8, and then 4 Ohms.

For example, the Bel Canto he is looking at, has 60W into 8 Ohms and 120W into 4 Ohms, which along with a peak output current of 30A, and being stable down to 3 Ohms, mean it should be up to the job.

I suppose whether you need it depends on the speakers that you are driving and whether the amp has a fairly low wattage into 8 Ohms to start with.

Yes, 'Class D' amplifiers are usually very efficient at nearly doubling power into lower impedances. They do, however, often not have large dynamic headroom.

regards

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes, 'Class D' amplifiers are usually very efficient at nearly doubling power into lower impedances. They do, however, often not have large dynamic headroom.

regards

My technical prowess is little more than skin deep, so I'm not in a position to argue

I know that the specs of the C5i say it has a dynamic range of 115dBs (is that a guide to headroom?) and it sounded pretty dynamic to listen to, when I last heard it.....though that's subjective, I know.

 

[TrevC]

So, to summarise, he needs to go eeny meeny miny mo to choose an amp.

Myself, I would look at the least expensive amplifier that produces a reasonable (at least 50watts per channel) amount of power at 4 ohms. I would also get one with tone controls if I wasn't going to use a sub with these KEFs.

But that's just me.

 

[CnoEvil]

So, to summarise, he needs to go eeny meeny miny mo to choose an amp.

If you thought I was saying that, I need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[unknown]

sorry to cut in, but has anybody used a musical fidelity xa2 intergrated amp (75 watts) with these kef speakers ?

 

[tk1111]

So, to summarise, he needs to go eeny meeny miny mo to choose an amp.

Myself, I would look at the least expensive amplifier that produces a reasonable (at least 50watts per channel) amount of power at 4 ohms. I would also get one with tone controls if I wasn't going to use a sub with these KEFs.

But that's just me.

I actualy can see myself trying a sub as a way to improve sound.

One of the benefit of the D 3020 is that it has a sub out. Also, I believe that given that it's a power DAC than it should be very efficient with lower impedance. I am not sure if the BelCanto has sub out, but it does have a phono input.

Neither of them have tone control. The Arcam doesn't either, In fact I am not sure which reasonable integrated are out there with tone control and digital inputs (other than AVR).

 

[Frank Harvey]

Adding a sub doesn't "improve" anything.

 

[drummerman]

Adding a sub doesn't "improve" anything.

I can't vouch for the system in question but as a general statement, I would have to disagree with you.

regards

 

[tk1111]

Adding a sub doesn't "improve" anything.

I tend to agree, if it was lack of bass that troubled me, a sub might have been a valid fix. However it is lack of clarity and engagement that I am going after, so I actually expect that sub will make things worse.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Adding a sub doesn't "improve" anything.

I can't vouch for the system in question but as a general statement, I would have to disagree with you.

regards

What I should have said was that adding a sub won't improve what the LS50 is meant to produce.

 

[TrevC]

Adding a sub doesn't "improve" anything.

I can't vouch for the system in question but as a general statement, I would have to disagree with you.

regards

What I should have said was that adding a sub won't improve what the LS50 is meant to produce.

If you want proper bass with these speakers a sub is required. They roll off fairly quickly after about 80Hz.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Define "proper bass".

Many prefer the sound of a standmount speaker for a reason. The bass that the LS50 produces is very nicely balanced with the rest of their frequency range, and they don't sound 'bass light'. Of course, low end extension is limited (as with any standmount), and individuals looking for that extension will prefer a floorstander.

Oh, and don't forget about room boundary gain. Specs don't tell the whole story.

 

[pauln]

I was really illustrating a point, rather than insisting that an amp "has" to double its power down to 2 Ohms.....though quite a lot of modern speakers go down to below 4 Ohms. It is often a good benchmark to see what an amp's power is into 8, and then 4 Ohms.

For example, the Bel Canto he is looking at, has 60W into 8 Ohms and 120W into 4 Ohms, which along with a peak output current of 30A, and being stable down to 3 Ohms, mean it should be up to the job.

Perhaps that amp might actually have a maximum power output of something like 90W into 8 Ohms but the manufacturer chooses to be a tad "conservative" in quoting the power output so as to give the impression that the theoretical ideal of (maximum) power doubling as impedance halves is achieved. Hence people are sometimes heard to say that such and such an amplifier "punches above its weight" or has "better" quality watts.

 

[tk1111]

Quick update: I got the isoAccoustic stands today, and there seems to be some improvement in bass control.

I am also spending more listening time with the speakers. Some songs clearly sound better than the others.

Simon and Garfunkel sounds swell, Adele and Tracy Chapman sounds good.

I say good, because it sounds nice, but I can't claim that I am shocked in any way by the experience - nothing like the rave reviews that I've seen online.

Still much more issues with complex songs such as Kings of Leon Closer / Someone like you and Pink Floyd Greatest gig in the sky, velvet unground

The way I was able to achieve signigicanlly better sound is by tweeking the itues EQ settings.(pushing down 64/125 and kicking 4k/8k and 16k).

This smoothed the sound and increased dynamics.

Tomorrow I'll be hearing some new integrated, and on Tuesday I am planning to go back and hear the Harbeths. It's possible that my memory is planying tricks on me in regads to how good they sounded.

 

[manicm]

I think perhaps there is a slight risk to elevate these little speakers to something they're not. I havent heard them but they are still a small volume stand mount with a very small driver, even more so considering that a considerable part is taken up by the tweeter part.

I am sure they are very good, most reviews can't be wrong, but these strike me as ideal for good amplifiers of most wattages, both high and relatively limited if high headroom/volume is not required.

Where a good sized, good quality full bandwidth floorstander will show up any deficiencies of an amplifiers ability to control drivers these little speakers will most likely not thus I can't see why decent amplifiers such as a Rega brio R or Nad's new £400 one can't be used.

I am always a little weary about 'cult status' products, especially when they have only been launched recently.

I must make the effort and hear a pair. Until then I can only guess of course.

regards

No-one is elevating them to 'cult' status. The only oversight on Kef's part is their specs recommending '25w - 100w'. And obviously using a 25w amp on this 800 quid speaker is bound to end up in disappointment.

I'm with David where I blame the internet/dealers who are only interested in shifting as many units as they can. If you read Kef's specs further they quote a sensitivity of 85db, with nominal impedance of 8ohms, but with a minimum of 3.2ohms.

So any dealer worth his salt would know that a speaker with a sensitivity of 85db, coupled with a minimum of 3.2 ohms should not be a recommended partner to a budget amp even perhaps one like the NAD D3020 - which is after all 400 quid or half of the speaker. And WHF were not as glowing of this pairing as their American counterpart (Audiophile?).

Yes an amp like the NAD D3020 may punch above its weight - but it's ultimately going to succumb to the laws of physics, and will be no substitute for a higher powered amp of good quality.

It seems to me that 1. People do not do enough research. 2. There are dealers who are not helpful. 3. With the result that people get carried away with rose-tinted glasses.

And this results in disappointment, and wasted money. And no fault of a 'cult' speaker product which is genuinely good with similar quality electronics.

Also, I don't see why another poster thinks the Arcam A19 is not good enough? It's a genuine 50w, high quality amp, so should drive the LS50s amply. Unlike Marantz and Pioneer who tend to overstate their power ratings. Come to think of it Linn does as well on some of their all-in-one products.

With regards to the OP's Yamaha A3090, yes, on paper it seemed to be very powerful at 80w/channel at 8ohms. But remember this is a 15 year old amp, and at that time AV amps were not too deft with stereo music playback. So I'm not really surprised it's not sounding too great with the KEFs to be honest.

 

[the record spot]

Before anything else, is the current amp equipped with discrete amps? Can the OP bi-amp? Had the OP tried that? Have they adjusted their speaker position if they can?

Otherwise, is skip past anything that is less than 100w and giving a good high burnt and decent camping factor. Making do when you've spent £800 on a pair of speakers won't cut it.

 

[cstanwhf]

The LS50 does not support biwire or bi-amp.

I think the OP might be sitting too close to the LS50 as he admited.

Anyway to try to use the bung and place the LS50 closer to the back wall and sit further back to test?

 

[tk1111]

The LS50 does not support biwire or bi-amp.

I think the OP might be sitting too close to the LS50 as he admited.

Anyway to try to use the bung and place the LS50 closer to the back wall and sit further back to test?

For the record there are two of us who have expressed dissapointment with the ls50.

While I am not the original OP, I'm the one that is sitting close to them.

I did try the bungs and various placement, I believe the current placement is best so far.

Again, just to be clear, I am not saying that they are bad, but after reading so many rave reviews, I did expect more.

With the new desk stands, and after some EQ changes on itunes, it all sounds better (esp with less complex songs).

Maybe burn-in improved it further. Tomorrow I'll get to hear few new integrated amps with some ieffcient speakers.

I'm hoping to take two home for demo.

 

[cstanwhf]

The LS50 does not support biwire or bi-amp.

I think the OP might be sitting too close to the LS50 as he admited.

Anyway to try to use the bung and place the LS50 closer to the back wall and sit further back to test?

For the record there are two of us who have expressed dissapointment with the ls50.

While I am not the original OP, I'm the one that is sitting close to them.

I did try the bungs and various placement, I believe the current placement is best so far.

Again, just to be clear, I am not saying that they are bad, but after reading so many rave reviews, I did expect more.

With the new desk stands, and after some EQ changes on itunes, it all sounds better (esp with less complex songs).

Maybe burn-in improved it further. Tomorrow I'll get to hear few new integrated amps with some ieffcient speakers.

I'm hoping to take two home for demo.

Ahh...yes. You are not the original OP.