KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[the record spot]

The LS50 does not support biwire or bi-amp.

I think the OP might be sitting too close to the LS50 as he admited.

Anyway to try to use the bung and place the LS50 closer to the back wall and sit further back to test?

Fair enough. If all else fails, get rid of them and buy some others instead that are better suited. Hifi shouldn't be hard work!

Never liked their chocolate orange colour styling much anyway...!

 

[drummerman]

I'm with David where I blame the internet/dealers who are only interested in shifting as many units as they can. If you read Kef's specs further they quote a sensitivity of 85db, with nominal impedance of 8ohms, but with a minimum of 3.2ohms.

That is a fairly normal minimum impedance for a modern '8ohm' speaker (bass drivers are usually 4ohm units, tweeter 8ohm) and nothing to worry about for any decent modern amplifier, even budget ones.

regards

 

[plastic penguin]

Don't doubt the competence of the LS50s. The only thing that puzzles me is that a £650 50 watt amp as the ideal partner. :? But then you are powering yours either thru a six grand amp or a high end receiver. No doubt my TB2s would sound a whole lot better a Leema Tucana.

If the LS50s are that tricky then the Leema Pulse, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian is a much better choice than a £650er.

I totally agree.

They can sound "acceptable" with the right budget amp, but need something much more substantial to hear what they can really do.

Would be interested to read your findings with the LS50s powered by a entry-level amp, such as the Arcam A19 or Rega Brio-R. Also with those amps, hear Focal 806V or one of the new MA Silver standmounters, which are, arguably, more current-friendly than the Kefs.

 

[BigH]

Not surprised at all... I recently audienced the LS50 in NYC at a dealer... I was not impressed at all, I'm not saying it was bad, I'm just saying it smells to me there might be some nationalistic bias on the reviews, including this site towards made in U.K products. Please don't take as a insult towards U.K though, I'm just saying it's just too suspicious that all product of the year on what hi fi are UK based brands.

[/b]

Marketing can never replace yourself audition speakers, I cannot be happier with my Dynaudio's DM 2/7 paired with Marrantz PM6004. I auditioned them in a store in Kansas City and immediately fell in love! When I came back to do research, they happened to be product of the year in 2010 in this site, but lately, I do not agree on most product of the year.

My recommendation would be to return the speakers and audition the ones you like.

Good luck

Kef LS50s are made in China, so your opinion is incorrect I think, there maybe be some bias on certain products, I agree.

 

[plastic penguin]

It's very true that most British manufacters have their products made outside the UK. Very few are actually designed, made and assembled on home shores.

 

[manicm]

I'm with David where I blame the internet/dealers who are only interested in shifting as many units as they can. If you read Kef's specs further they quote a sensitivity of 85db, with nominal impedance of 8ohms, but with a minimum of 3.2ohms.

That is a fairly normal minimum impedance for a modern '8ohm' speaker (bass drivers are usually 4ohm units, tweeter 8ohm) and nothing to worry about for any decent modern amplifier, even budget ones.

regards

Yes but a sensitivity of 85db? That tells me nothing less than 50w should be used. And I want to repeat this is a 800 pound speaker and is not a budget piece of equipment.

And I would argue that 3.2 ohms minimum is common amongst budget speakers. For example HiFi Choice's measurements on my RX1s showed it bottomed out at around 5.8 ohms (MA just specifies a flat 6ohms, no min value given).

On the other hand B&W quotes a minimum of 3.7ohms for the 685 - which may explain why many amps will drive this speaker with its good 88db sensitivity, but few budget amps will drive them properly, except for a well designed amp like the Rotel RA-10.

My point is the LS50s are not a budget speaker, and if some pair them with budget amps and are disappointed then I'm not surprised.

 

[CnoEvil]

Would be interested to read your findings with the LS50s powered by a entry-level amp, such as the Arcam A19 or Rega Brio-R. Also with those amps, hear Focal 806V or one of the new MA Silver standmounters, which are, arguably, more current-friendly than the Kefs.

The only "cheap" amp that I have heard driving them, is the 20W one in the Sneaky, where they sounded better than I was expecting. I would describe the sound as reasonably good, rather than outstanding.

 

[CnoEvil]

Perhaps that amp might actually have a maximum power output of something like 90W into 8 Ohms but the manufacturer chooses to be a tad "conservative" in quoting the power output so as to give the impression that the theoretical ideal of (maximum) power doubling as impedance halves is achieved. Hence people are sometimes heard to say that such and such an amplifier "punches above its weight" or has "better" quality watts.

Possibly, but I thought that manufacturers couldn't just pluck their specs out of thin air. I assume that they must use genuine verifiable measurements.

As to how much maneuvering room they have, I don't know......though there is always a Hifi mag waiting round the corner to put them to the test, so I suspect most reputable brands would be reasonably accurate (for 2 channel anyway).

 

[TrevC]

Define "proper bass".

I want to hear and feel the low notes of the keyboard on Genesis Firth of Fifth, the heartbeat on DSOTM, The deep notes on Tuung Soup and the bass notes of the organ rumbling through Saint Saens organ symphony. None of those are heard properly with a small standmount speaker that has no sub.

Proper bass.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Define "proper bass".

I want to hear and feel the low notes of the keyboard on Genesis Firth of Fifth, the heartbeat on DSOTM, The deep notes on Tuung Soup and the bass notes of the organ rumbling through Saint Saens organ symphony. None of those are heard properly with a small standmount speaker that has no sub.

Proper bass.

And this is it. The definition of 'proper bass' is open to interpretation, and also personal preference.

Other than depth and intensity, there's also detail in bass too. When properly set up, this is what the LS50s can do that many others can't - they allow you to hear real texture in bass, which larger speakers generally can't do (not on the same sort of budget anyway). ATC's SCM11 and SCM19 would also be examples of speakers that can reproduce subtleties in the bass region.

By the sounds of it, you're after a larger speaker, and one that can shift a hell of a lot more air than a 5" driver. I would suggest looking at Monitor Audio's outgoing RX2 or their replacements, the Silver 2. And if you're talking about using a subwoofer with them for accurate music reproduction, that's a whole other kettle of fish...

 

[tk1111]

Would be interested to read your findings with the LS50s powered by a entry-level amp, such as the Arcam A19 or Rega Brio-R. Also with those amps, hear Focal 806V or one of the new MA Silver standmounters, which are, arguably, more current-friendly than the Kefs.

The only "cheap" amp that I have heard driving them, is the 20W one in the Sneaky, where they sounded better than I was expecting. I would describe the sound as reasonably good, rather than outstanding.

Today I heard few integrated amps powering some Martin Logan Theos speakers. I wish I could have used the KEF, but they didn't carry it, neither was I able to bring my own to the store.

With that being said, I heard the Bel Canto C5i, NAD D3020, Arcam A19 and SimAudio Moon 340i.

The NAD D3020 was clearly suffering at high volume, but at low volume, to me at least, it sounded as good as the Bel Canto.

The BelCanto was able to get louder, and the Moon was clearly the most powerful and was best at reaching and mataining sound quality at high volume.

The A19 wasn't impressive.

At this point I'd like to try a high powered integrated and the NAD D3020 at home. I am not sure if the Bel Canto adds enough value to warrant 4x the price of the D 3020, but I would have paid x2 for it.

I've ordered the D3020 with 60 days at home trial, so I'll report back when I receive it.

I'll also hunt for a used Bel Canto, or a more powerful integrated with digital inputs . The only one that I could think of so far is the NAD 390DD with 150W, but it's way too expensive for me.

 

[npoguy]

I was holding my breath to see if I steered you in the completely wrong direction! Glad to see that you liked it at least enough for a home trial. Hope it continues to work out!

 

[davedotco]

Define "proper bass".

I want to hear and feel the low notes of the keyboard on Genesis Firth of Fifth, the heartbeat on DSOTM, The deep notes on Tuung Soup and the bass notes of the organ rumbling through Saint Saens organ symphony. None of those are heard properly with a small standmount speaker that has no sub.

Proper bass.

Whilst there is nothing whatsoever to disagree with in you post, I find it contradictory. I'll try to explain why.

The 'proper' bass that you describe is not, to me anyway, 'proper' in the home environment. I have reasonably sized rooms and there is absolutely no way that 'proper' bass sounds right in such circunstances. Attempting to reproduce deep bass in a domestic setting, even when well done in hi-fi terms sounds hopelessly wrong to me, so much so that I actually avoid music that relies on deep bass for it's effect.

I accept that this is a preference, but to me a very powerful one. It means that I am quite comfortable with small stand mount speakers.

 

[CnoEvil]

Would be interested to read your findings with the LS50s powered by a entry-level amp, such as the Arcam A19 or Rega Brio-R. Also with those amps, hear Focal 806V or one of the new MA Silver standmounters, which are, arguably, more current-friendly than the Kefs.

The only "cheap" amp that I have heard driving them, is the 20W one in the Sneaky, where they sounded better than I was expecting. I would describe the sound as reasonably good, rather than outstanding.

Today I heard few integrated amps powering some Martin Logan Theos speakers. I wish I could have used the KEF, but they didn't carry it, neither was I able to bring my own to the store.

With that being said, I heard the Bel Canto C5i, NAD D3020, Arcam A19 and SimAudio Moon 340i.

The NAD D3020 was clearly suffering at high volume, but at low volume, to me at least, it sounded as good as the Bel Canto.

The BelCanto was able to get louder, and the Moon was clearly the most powerful and was best at reaching and mataining sound quality at high volume.

The A19 wasn't impressive.

At this point I'd like to try a high powered integrated and the NAD D3020 at home. I am not sure if the Bel Canto adds enough value to warrant 4x the price of the D 3020, but I would have paid x2 for it.

I've ordered the D3020 with 60 days at home trial, so I'll report back when I receive it.

I'll also hunt for a used Bel Canto, or a more powerful integrated with digital inputs . The only one that I could think of so far is the NAD 390DD with 150W, but it's way too expensive for me.

You are right to want to hear your chosen amps at home, with the LS50s......a prolonged listen, in a relaxed environment, with your favorite music, can be enlightening. It usually shows up differences that you didn't hear in the hustle and bustle of the demo.

I think the LS50s can sound well on the end of Class D amps, so I think you should do the Bel Canto vs Nad comparison again in your own room.

Listening to your chosen amps driving different speakers can be of limited value, and even misleading.

 

[letsavit2]

For me speakers there position and room acoustics is 70% of the system so if you don't like then get rid, simple. A £200 nad etc amp should be able to run a good pair of speakers.

 

[npoguy]

Would be interested to read your findings with the LS50s powered by a entry-level amp, such as the Arcam A19 or Rega Brio-R. Also with those amps, hear Focal 806V or one of the new MA Silver standmounters, which are, arguably, more current-friendly than the Kefs.

The only "cheap" amp that I have heard driving them, is the 20W one in the Sneaky, where they sounded better than I was expecting. I would describe the sound as reasonably good, rather than outstanding.

Today I heard few integrated amps powering some Martin Logan Theos speakers. I wish I could have used the KEF, but they didn't carry it, neither was I able to bring my own to the store.

With that being said, I heard the Bel Canto C5i, NAD D3020, Arcam A19 and SimAudio Moon 340i.

The NAD D3020 was clearly suffering at high volume, but at low volume, to me at least, it sounded as good as the Bel Canto.

The BelCanto was able to get louder, and the Moon was clearly the most powerful and was best at reaching and mataining sound quality at high volume.

The A19 wasn't impressive.

At this point I'd like to try a high powered integrated and the NAD D3020 at home. I am not sure if the Bel Canto adds enough value to warrant 4x the price of the D 3020, but I would have paid x2 for it.

I've ordered the D3020 with 60 days at home trial, so I'll report back when I receive it.

I'll also hunt for a used Bel Canto, or a more powerful integrated with digital inputs . The only one that I could think of so far is the NAD 390DD with 150W, but it's way too expensive for me

also wanted to note that I have the speakers on 28" stands, about 2.5 feet away from back wall and lots of room on either side.

 

[npoguy]

Double post

 

[pauln]

Perhaps that amp might actually have a maximum power output of something like 90W into 8 Ohms but the manufacturer chooses to be a tad "conservative" in quoting the power output so as to give the impression that the theoretical ideal of (maximum) power doubling as impedance halves is achieved. Hence people are sometimes heard to say that such and such an amplifier "punches above its weight" or has "better" quality watts.

Possibly, but I thought that manufacturers couldn't just pluck their specs out of thin air. I assume that they must use genuine verifiable measurements.

As to how much maneuvering room they have, I don't know......though there is always a Hifi mag waiting round the corner to put them to the test, so I suspect most reputable brands would be reasonably accurate (for 2 channel anyway).

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts. Of course understating the power output is not against the law, perhaps just a bit "creative". After all, why would manufacturers of audio equipment be any more up front than any other manufacturer when it comes to marketing their product? It's a dog eat dog world and times are hard - it's all about selling as many units as possible isn't it? It's not some kind of gentlemans hifi club, with a very few exceptions I suppose, but they are probably very small one man band cottage industry types. I'm not thinking of the obvious chap in his shed, more along the lines of NJC Audio.

BTW Can someone tell me if there is some kind of inherent sound quality gain to be had with a hard to drive inefficient speaker? Harbeth seem to be able to produce very easy to drive speakers that are widely praised - but then they don't make amplifiers. Kef meanwhile are owned by GP Acoustics... who also own Arcam... who do make amplifiers. Make of that what ever you want but are people so naive as to think that these business men don't come up with strategies to maximise turnover and profit? (Obviously harbeth too have a strategy or business plan, it's just different.)

 

[davedotco]

Perhaps that amp might actually have a maximum power output of something like 90W into 8 Ohms but the manufacturer chooses to be a tad "conservative" in quoting the power output so as to give the impression that the theoretical ideal of (maximum) power doubling as impedance halves is achieved. Hence people are sometimes heard to say that such and such an amplifier "punches above its weight" or has "better" quality watts.

Possibly, but I thought that manufacturers couldn't just pluck their specs out of thin air. I assume that they must use genuine verifiable measurements.

As to how much maneuvering room they have, I don't know......though there is always a Hifi mag waiting round the corner to put them to the test, so I suspect most reputable brands would be reasonably accurate (for 2 channel anyway).

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts. Of course understating the power output is not against the law, perhaps just a bit "creative". After all, why would manufacturers of audio equipment be any more up front than any other manufacturer when it comes to marketing their product? It's a dog eat dog world and times are hard - it's all about selling as many units as possible isn't it? It's not some kind of gentlemans hifi club, with a very few exceptions I suppose, but they are probably very small one man band cottage industry types. I'm not thinking of the obvious chap in his shed, more along the lines of NJC Audio.

BTW Can someone tell me if there is some kind of inherent sound quality gain to be had with a hard to drive inefficient speaker? Harbeth seem to be able to produce very easy to drive speakers that are widely praised - but then they don't make amplifiers. Kef meanwhile are owned by GP Acoustics... who also own Arcam... who do make amplifiers. Make of that what ever you want but are people so naive as to think that these business men don't come up with strategies to maximise turnover and profit? (Obviously harbeth too have a strategy or business plan, it's just different.)

There is a tight relationship between bass extension and sensitivity for any given driver/enclosure combination. Many small speakers 'throw away' mid band sensitivity to 'extend' the bass. It is a compromise and such techniques are partly responsible for the complexity of the crossover which makes it hard to drive.

I dont think anyone deliberately makes their speakers hard to drive though in reality many are. I know that Harbeth make the point that their speakers are an easy load and can be used with modest amplifiers but quite honestly I do not find that the case in practice.

In fact I find they are one of those classic british designs that really don't give of their best without some serious amplification.

 

[CnoEvil]

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts.

Most good Class A amps will achieve this, and my amp has been measured getting very, very close to it.

 

[the record spot]

We get electrical friction on this site all the time.

Well, friction about electrics.

Okay, we argue a lot.

 

[wilro15]

As a recent owner of the LS50 I thought I would throw in my tuppence worth. I bought them just under a week ago, they were ex-demo, 3 months old so can probably assume they are burned in already.

I moved to Kef LS50 from Kef Q500 floorstanders. The immediate difference was that the LS50s sounded smaller, boxy and a bit dull. I was disappointed. The problem was this: the Q500 have an overly bright presentation, in effect they over emphasise treble to make music sound better. The LS50 gives a more natural representation, with 20-30 minutes or so in front of the LS50s this difference became apparent.

Also I had the LS50s sitting on an Ikea TV cabinet (basically a big empty box with Sky/Xbox/etc inside) - well there was the boxiness! And sounding small? Well they are smaller than floorstanders aren't they?

Anyway yesterday my stands arrived (Partington Super Dreadnoughts). The difference is incredible, I was surprised it made that much difference. The LS50 have such an expansive sound that fills the room. Gone was the small sounding boxiness! Vocals sound so much more realistic than on the Q500s. They produce a good amount of bass, but as I think David said, you hear the texture and character of the bass. The treble is refined and detailed but not in your face.

I spent the whole evening skipping through my music collection to try out different musical styles. This is without a doubt the best system I have ever had. I can't wait to get some alone time again - curses that the house will be full of noisy family over Christmas!

My amp is a direct-digital NuForce DDA-100 that outputs 50W into 8 ohms, 75 into 4. I do feel the amp has to be running at 50% for the system to come alive - but this is a comfortable listening level. Would the LS50s sound better with a bigger amp? Probably, but the "next step up" for me would be to spend in the region of £1200 on something like Cyrus 8 DAC / Peachtree Nova 125 / Bel Canto C5i. I can't afford that right now.

So to summarise, the LS50 is a fantastic speaker but it needs care: good stands, good positioning, decent amplification. To the OP who's mates said their Ford Fiesta produces more bass, well that just shows how dumb you and your friends are. If you want masses of sub bass, buy a sub or get Cerwin Vega speakers! The LS50 is for music lovers who like a natural, realistic and accurate sound that you can enjoy for hours on end.

Merry Christmas!

 

[pauln]

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts.

Most good Class A amps will achieve this, and my amp has been measured getting very, very close to it.

If you say so.

 

[tk1111]

Anyway yesterday my stands arrived (Partington Super Dreadnoughts). The difference is incredible, I was surprised it made that much difference. The LS50 have such an expansive sound that fills the room. Gone was the small sounding boxiness! Vocals sound so much more realistic than on the Q500s. They produce a good amount of bass, but as I think David said, you hear the texture and character of the bass. The treble is refined and detailed but not in your face.

I spent the whole evening skipping through my music collection to try out different musical styles. This is without a doubt the best system I have ever had. I can't wait to get some alone time again - curses that the house will be full of noisy family over Christmas!

My amp is a direct-digital NuForce DDA-100 that outputs 50W into 8 ohms, 75 into 4. I do feel the amp has to be running at 50% for the system to come alive - but this is a comfortable listening level. Would the LS50s sound better with a bigger amp? Probably, but the "next step up" for me would be to spend in the region of £1200 on something like Cyrus 8 DAC / Peachtree Nova 125 / Bel Canto C5i. I can't afford that right now.

So to summarise, the LS50 is a fantastic speaker but it needs care: good stands, good positioning, decent amplification. To the OP who's mates said their Ford Fiesta produces more bass, well that just shows how dumb you and your friends are. If you want masses of sub bass, buy a sub or get Cerwin Vega speakers! The LS50 is for music lovers who like a natural, realistic and accurate sound that you can enjoy for hours on end.

Merry Christmas!

Thanks for the feedback and review. I noticed that stands made a difference to me too.

After spending more time in the store listening to more amps, I am of the opinion that switching integrated would not make much of a diffrence.

I doubt that the NAD D 3020 will sound any different than the Decco2, and I believe that at my current listening volume they'd perform just as well.

Really looking forward to testing that.

If I were to spend more money, I'd go with a more powerful device. The Bel Canto C5i and the NAD 390DD are they ones that interest me most.

I wonder how the much better the power dac is compared to class D, and the tone control, and eq mode might prove handy if I'd decide to integrate a sub in the future.

 

[CnoEvil]

The point is that they would state the maximum power output at 4 ohms but just "a" power output at 8 ohms which would actually be less than the maximum thus giving the illusion that the power output is doubling as the impedance halves. Which in any case is impossible to achieve in real life due to the inevitable losses that will occur - resistive losses I believe they are called, or "electrical friction", which amount to maybe 5% or thereabouts.

Most good Class A amps will achieve this, and my amp has been measured getting very, very close to it.

If you say so.

No, the independent measurements say so.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to you.

:beer: :beer: