shkumar4963 said:
Are you surprised? I bet they were, that you actually asked.
Everyone now hates you because you are that one curious clever kid pulling on Santa's fake beard.
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Are you surprised? I bet they were, that you actually asked.
Everyone now hates you because you are that one curious clever kid pulling on Santa's fake beard.
One shop may stock a full MA speaker and Arcam electronics range. Another will do Marantz and Tannoy. People have a choice to pick a brand and visit an exclusive dealership. Other brands may appear as variety in the shops but not as full range kept in stock. That is OK, we get that. The guys are commenting on the dealer suggesting something to the buyer because:
1) Been too long on the shelf and loosing value with time. Trying to sell it without a large discount.
2) Higher provisions for the dealer on that item.
3) The dealer genuinly thinks this component will serve the buyer the best, despite him disagreing because he read some reviews before coming in the shop.
First two are for the dealer's benefit and the third is for the buyer. You are focusing on the third as the first two are improbable in every shop in the world simply because it is bad for business reputation in the long term. And the vicious cycle begins, dealers calling buyers stupid and buyers calling dealers malicious.
The tell signs a buyer doesn't know what he is doing are simple. "This 5 star amp goes with that 5 star speaker..."
What are the tell signs a dealer is being malicious?
1) Been too long on the shelf and loosing value with time. Trying to sell it without a large discount.
2) Higher provisions for the dealer on that item.
3) The dealer genuinly thinks this component will serve the buyer the best, despite him disagreing because he read some reviews before coming in the shop.
First two are for the dealer's benefit and the third is for the buyer. You are focusing on the third as the first two are improbable in every shop in the world simply because it is bad for business reputation in the long term. And the vicious cycle begins, dealers calling buyers stupid and buyers calling dealers malicious.
The tell signs a buyer doesn't know what he is doing are simple. "This 5 star amp goes with that 5 star speaker..."
What are the tell signs a dealer is being malicious?
Native_bon
Well-known member
Have is my views. I think shops that were really interested in HIFI & willing to get the best for their customers is almost non existent. People are most aware of the tricks of the trade now. Confidence of the buyer is dwindling rapidly.
People were being lied to about the rules of HIFI. Some much money was made on the bases of accessories. Mains filters, cables, to mables , you name it. Now many people realise it was all a con. Anyone can dress up cables & amps or cd players to make them look expensive. I for one think the HIFI world is getting away with murder.
The reason for this is reviews are not telling the real story anymore. They may be a few exemptions, but who then does the consumer trust. I will say this & will say it again. Music & AV is about sound & acoustics. Selling HIFI must include demo at home. Anything less than this is blind buying. And guess who makes more money when you get it wrong?
Some of us are just HIFI nuts, not matter how good a system sounds they will still get the itch to change but thats another story. Over the years I have seen so many all in one systems give better performance than seperate systems than cost 20times the price of the all in ones. For this reason alone systems have to be setup at home to get the very best of mix & match. If need be retaliers should charge for setup at home. This may restore some confidence back in the HIFI world once again.
People were being lied to about the rules of HIFI. Some much money was made on the bases of accessories. Mains filters, cables, to mables , you name it. Now many people realise it was all a con. Anyone can dress up cables & amps or cd players to make them look expensive. I for one think the HIFI world is getting away with murder.
The reason for this is reviews are not telling the real story anymore. They may be a few exemptions, but who then does the consumer trust. I will say this & will say it again. Music & AV is about sound & acoustics. Selling HIFI must include demo at home. Anything less than this is blind buying. And guess who makes more money when you get it wrong?
Some of us are just HIFI nuts, not matter how good a system sounds they will still get the itch to change but thats another story. Over the years I have seen so many all in one systems give better performance than seperate systems than cost 20times the price of the all in ones. For this reason alone systems have to be setup at home to get the very best of mix & match. If need be retaliers should charge for setup at home. This may restore some confidence back in the HIFI world once again.
Native_bon said:
Fair comment, though personally I think you are being over cynical
Dealers try and do the best for their customers, it is self interest in the medium or long term. The conflict comes when the dealers views on the best solutions differ from the customers.
I was lucky in that most of my time as a dealer was during a period, pre internet and to a degree pre the all pervasive 'review culture'. We made our pitch by demonstrating the superiority of what we were selling against allcomers and, very often, installing in the customers home. Occasionally changes would be made of equipment at this time, usually alternative speakers, and the job was not done until the customer was satisfied, this goes some way to address the home demonstration issue you mention. Our separates systems were never bettered by some 'all in ones', if it had, we would have been out of business.
This was never a problem for us, the customer had demonstrated his commitment so it was up to us to get it right, this was expected. Many of our new customers were introduced, often actually brought in by, our existing customers and knew little about hi-fi, once again the sale was made by demonstration, by actually playing some music.
Many of these customers became regulars and borrowing equipment to try at home was then never an issue, sometimes we would visit, sometimes just send then home with our demonstrator for the evening or the weekend. I've spoken earlier about the timewasters and the tyre kickers, this is the other side of the coin.
while at home demo is the final verification step, we need help on sorting out the field to select one or two models to demo at home.Native_bon said:
I feel it will happen when consumers demand it and good manufacturers fund it. Forums like this one and others can create the awareness for this need.
I also see there is. A need for a third party company to provide honest engineering assessments to dealers at at a cost for the models they carry and their relevant competing models. Thus will also reqyire dealers to be more knowledgeable about engineering aspects of the equipment. At least they need to know how to read the measurement data and be able to explain it to customers.
The third party company will measure the equipment once and will be able to send the report to both consumers and dealers on demand. A consumer buying a 2000 dollar equipment will not mind paying 25 dollars for the technical report on the equipment. Something like carfax.com. Stereophile and what hifi can not compete in this business as they are dependent on ad revenues from manufacturers.
what do you think guys?
Will it work? Anywhere here to start that business?
jonathanRD
Well-known member
My dealer is just 2miles away. First time I went there I knew very little about brands etc, and came away with a Rotel RCD 965BX CD player in about 1992. The following years saw a number of visits and demo's - picking up a pair of Mission 780's, and then the Rega Brio 2000. It was only in 2012 that I replaced the Rotel with the Rega Apollo, and only within the last two weeks that I have replaced the Missions. So I think I've had some very good advice from my dealer over the years providing me with some good options with my choices giving me a lot of enjoyment and value for money over the years.
The only items I have not purchased from them were online purchases of the BK sub and RS5 speakers which in both cases gave me a significant saving.
Next up for me is a new amp. I've already been into the dealer for a chat, this time I have a much better idea of what's what, but I still let the dealer make the initial suggestions, although thankfully they matched my thoughts.
The point is that I do value having this long-standing relationship with a dealer that has given me good advice over the years with staff having worked there for quite a long time in some cases. I didn't need to demo my av kit or the Sonos and I may have been able to get them cheaper online, however I made a concious decision to purchase them locally to keep that relationship ticking over. Once I picked up a pair of MA BXFX speakers and on arriving home immediately snapped one of the speaker terminals. I was back in my dealers within 30 minutes of leaving them - their engineer promptly fixed them whilst I waited with no charge.
No dealer can stock everything, and mine is no different. It would be interesting to demo Exposure and Creek amps and maybe some other brands of speakers (I was interested in the Epos K2 active version) but I would have to drive anywhere between 75 - 150 miles for a demo, with little prospect of a home demo. So I might miss an opportunity to listen all the best options, but certainly I will get something I like from a dealer I have been using for the past 20 odd years. Lets hope we are both around for another 30 years *good*
The only items I have not purchased from them were online purchases of the BK sub and RS5 speakers which in both cases gave me a significant saving.
Next up for me is a new amp. I've already been into the dealer for a chat, this time I have a much better idea of what's what, but I still let the dealer make the initial suggestions, although thankfully they matched my thoughts.
The point is that I do value having this long-standing relationship with a dealer that has given me good advice over the years with staff having worked there for quite a long time in some cases. I didn't need to demo my av kit or the Sonos and I may have been able to get them cheaper online, however I made a concious decision to purchase them locally to keep that relationship ticking over. Once I picked up a pair of MA BXFX speakers and on arriving home immediately snapped one of the speaker terminals. I was back in my dealers within 30 minutes of leaving them - their engineer promptly fixed them whilst I waited with no charge.
No dealer can stock everything, and mine is no different. It would be interesting to demo Exposure and Creek amps and maybe some other brands of speakers (I was interested in the Epos K2 active version) but I would have to drive anywhere between 75 - 150 miles for a demo, with little prospect of a home demo. So I might miss an opportunity to listen all the best options, but certainly I will get something I like from a dealer I have been using for the past 20 odd years. Lets hope we are both around for another 30 years *good*
while at home demo is the final verification step, we need help on sorting out the field to select one or two models to demo at home.Native_bon said:
I feel it will happen when consumers demand it and good manufacturers fund it. Forums like this one and others can create the awareness for this need.
I also see there is. A need for a third party company to provide honest engineering assessments to dealers at at a cost for the models they carry and their relevant competing models. Thus will also reqyire dealers to be more knowledgeable about engineering aspects of the equipment. At least they need to know how to read the measurement data and be able to explain it to customers.
The third party company will measure the equipment once and will be able to send the report to both consumers and dealers on demand. A consumer buying a 2000 dollar equipment will not mind paying 25 dollars for the technical report on the equipment. Something like carfax.com. Stereophile and what hifi can not compete in this business as they are dependent on ad revenues from manufacturers.
what do you think guys?
Will it work? Anywhere here to start that business?
Just read this old article that concludes that while all options are compromises, mini monitor and sub should have less compromised sound than full range speakers for the same price point.
Would you say the same for LS50 and a decent sub (about $1000). Here is that article.
http://www.ellisaudio.com/subwoofers.htm
Who has ls50 with a sub? What sub did you choose? How do you like the audio performance of the system?
Would you say the same for LS50 and a decent sub (about $1000). Here is that article.
http://www.ellisaudio.com/subwoofers.htm
Who has ls50 with a sub? What sub did you choose? How do you like the audio performance of the system?
BTW
In the official LS50 White Paper the word "distortion" is mentioned 4 times in total over 25 pages, unrealated to any quantified data.. However, "LS3/5A" was mentioned 28 times and "BBC" for additional 7.
In the official LS50 White Paper the word "distortion" is mentioned 4 times in total over 25 pages, unrealated to any quantified data.. However, "LS3/5A" was mentioned 28 times and "BBC" for additional 7.
Now that we were not able to get any real engineering specs from KEF, let's try to decipher what they have published so far and try to read between the lines.
While most manufacturers tend to hide any specs that don't show them in good light, they tend not to outright lie about specs probably for fear of legal lawsuits, at least in US.
Assuming that KEF is following the same guidelines we should be able to figure out why they published these specs and hid others.
Frequency response is given but not at what power level it was taken. It is safe to assume that it was done at low power levels. Probably at 2.87v. No problem here.
Distortion is given as less than .4% with 90 db output from 175 to 20k. Probably the reason was that between 79 hz (it's quoted frequency bottom at -3dB) and 175 hz. There was unacceptably high dustortion levels so they decided to quote distortion only fir limited frequency range. Lesson for us will be to use somewhat higher cross over frequency when using with a sub. Remember this is speaker distortion and not amp distortion.
No wave form was given either. So probably the tests were done with a single frequency sine wave and the tests were done one frequency at a time (no doppler distortion) from 175 hz to 20 khz at low power levels. So when playing real Music we may see some doppler distortion and during music peaks additional speaker distortion even when the music is played at low average power levels.
Now let's see what the specs say about maximum output. It says 106 db without any additional details. So they were probably taken at a frequency where the speakers are the most efficient. And were probably done at one frequency. No Distortion figures are given either so it will be safe to assume that the Distortion at that output was very high. The lesson for us is that with real life music and for acceptable distortion levels, the output will be much less. We do see that at .4% distortion the output was 90 db. May be the max output for single frequency is close to that with acceptable distortion. And with real life music with peaks, the max average output may be much less than 90 db with the same .4% distortion.
Anyone has any other comments. Has my analysis been faulty?
While most manufacturers tend to hide any specs that don't show them in good light, they tend not to outright lie about specs probably for fear of legal lawsuits, at least in US.
Assuming that KEF is following the same guidelines we should be able to figure out why they published these specs and hid others.
Frequency response is given but not at what power level it was taken. It is safe to assume that it was done at low power levels. Probably at 2.87v. No problem here.
Distortion is given as less than .4% with 90 db output from 175 to 20k. Probably the reason was that between 79 hz (it's quoted frequency bottom at -3dB) and 175 hz. There was unacceptably high dustortion levels so they decided to quote distortion only fir limited frequency range. Lesson for us will be to use somewhat higher cross over frequency when using with a sub. Remember this is speaker distortion and not amp distortion.
No wave form was given either. So probably the tests were done with a single frequency sine wave and the tests were done one frequency at a time (no doppler distortion) from 175 hz to 20 khz at low power levels. So when playing real Music we may see some doppler distortion and during music peaks additional speaker distortion even when the music is played at low average power levels.
Now let's see what the specs say about maximum output. It says 106 db without any additional details. So they were probably taken at a frequency where the speakers are the most efficient. And were probably done at one frequency. No Distortion figures are given either so it will be safe to assume that the Distortion at that output was very high. The lesson for us is that with real life music and for acceptable distortion levels, the output will be much less. We do see that at .4% distortion the output was 90 db. May be the max output for single frequency is close to that with acceptable distortion. And with real life music with peaks, the max average output may be much less than 90 db with the same .4% distortion.
Anyone has any other comments. Has my analysis been faulty?
shkumar4963 said:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/dealZone.jsp
Also would love someone provide some information for my earlier questions. I really want to understand the value proposition that self powered speakers in general and M-Audio speakers in particular bring to the table.
shkumar4963 said:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/dealZone.jsp
Also would love someone provide some information for my earlier questions. I really want to understand the value proposition that self powered speakers in general and M-Audio speakers in particular bring to the table.
shkumar4963 said:
Tried answering some of those but forum won't let me post links.
And now word verification? Wtf?
Not sure what relevance your link to B+Hphoto has to hifi?
Craig M. said:
Bh photo reference was just to show that the self powered speaker recommended by someone here was on sale. No big idea.
shkumar4963 said:
Other than Audio and Wines mentioned in the blog "Can you trust your ears", Golf is another such industry where hype and marketing is more important than actual performance of the club and the ball.
San Diego is home to world's two largest golf club companies, TaylorMade and Callaway Golf. And I happen to know ex-CEOs of both companies. They do admit that all golf clubs after Big Bertha are nearly identical. The difference is in being able to convince the customers that they are buying something that might improve their performance. So subjective assessments, better packaging, heavily paid spokesmen, and investment in promoting expensive tournaments are where the money goes.
TaylorMade's last big success was in a club that was just white painted over the last years model.
So I can undertand how a whole industry can survive on promotion and subjective paid reviewers for years and decades when there is no real performance difference.
Here are some signs for when an industry or product is more based on hype than actual percievable performance:
1. The actual selling price is several times more than realistic manufacturing cost: In speaker industry this is certainly very true. I am told that a replacement speakers for KEF LS50 cost much much less than cost of LS50.
2. Money is being spent on marketing and hype: Presence of What Hi Fi and Stereophile and several other publications that are supported by high end speaker and audio manufacturer do show that audio industry spends considerable amount of money on hype and promotion.
3. Use of expensive sales channels: - These channels spend time convincing the customers that spending a few thousands on a new DAC is worth it. This takes time since it is not based on fact and performance differences and can not be easily shown to buyers based on blind listening tests.: In case of audio gears, we do see use of dedicated high end dealers. These channels are much more expensive to maintain but are needed.
4. Absense or rejection of scientific and engineering measurements that can be verified by others: While not always but I do see a more reliance of subjective terms like "musicality" and "aura" than sientific terms like Blind test, statistical significance etc. to describe better performance of one audio gear than the other.
5. Others can probably name numerous other signs that shows an industry is based on more hype and marketing than performance. I will welcome other's comments.
But like I said, Audio is not the only industry that relies on hype. Other are:
1. Fashion and designer dresses
2. Cosmetics
3. Golf
4. Vitamins and health food supplements
5. Others can probably name a few more. Again I will welcome others to comment.
After such a post, my account may be canceled. In that case... have fun.
1. The actual selling price is several times more than realistic manufacturing cost: In speaker industry this is certainly very true. I am told that a replacement speakers for KEF LS50 cost much much less than cost of LS50.
2. Money is being spent on marketing and hype: Presence of What Hi Fi and Stereophile and several other publications that are supported by high end speaker and audio manufacturer do show that audio industry spends considerable amount of money on hype and promotion.
3. Use of expensive sales channels: - These channels spend time convincing the customers that spending a few thousands on a new DAC is worth it. This takes time since it is not based on fact and performance differences and can not be easily shown to buyers based on blind listening tests.: In case of audio gears, we do see use of dedicated high end dealers. These channels are much more expensive to maintain but are needed.
4. Absense or rejection of scientific and engineering measurements that can be verified by others: While not always but I do see a more reliance of subjective terms like "musicality" and "aura" than sientific terms like Blind test, statistical significance etc. to describe better performance of one audio gear than the other.
5. Others can probably name numerous other signs that shows an industry is based on more hype and marketing than performance. I will welcome other's comments.
But like I said, Audio is not the only industry that relies on hype. Other are:
1. Fashion and designer dresses
2. Cosmetics
3. Golf
4. Vitamins and health food supplements
5. Others can probably name a few more. Again I will welcome others to comment.
After such a post, my account may be canceled. In that case... have fun.
Thank you Craig.Craig M. said:
As a newbie in audio gear and an old engineer, I was suspecting something like this. But this article summarized my feelings beautifully. Unfortunately, the blog stopped in 2012.
While subjective and obhectic debates will go on, people still need to make purchase decisions. Who will help them?
Since testing is so easy and so cheap to perform, there must be societies and forums who can do that in regular basis and advise customers without the subjective fluff. I just have not been able to find it.
May be LS50 is that good or may be it is just yeh marketing magic.
Some unbiased person may be able to conduct a blind test to tell what is what. If you know a source do mention it.
I am in contact with drmoran of Meyer and Moran fame. He has not tested it yet. Hoping that we would hear from you.
For people who did not get the link that Craig had, here it is: http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/subjective-vs-objective-debate.html
Native_bon
Well-known member
You have not mentioned any brand or manufactuer, unless your statements are true, then no one should take down your post. IF its taken down then there must be some truth in it. The saying got nothing to hide..? I know a lot about marketing & most certainly a lot of that happens in all aspects of life in society.shkumar4963 said:
I once watched a youtube video of Richard Dawkins investigating homeopathy and almost choked to death from laughing.
Yesterday I was talking with a group of speaker designers and audio engineers. They had worked in companies like Allison, Acoustics Research and had designed speakers like IC-20 (from Allison). I had asked the same question to them. According to them the improvements have not been much in the sound quality. Speaker being a mechanical device, were pretty mature 30 years back. However introduction of wave guide has improved dispersion characteristics of tweeters. In addition there have been improvements in testing and reliability. The cost has also come down somewhat although there is more hype now than 30 years back and most of the hype is not based on audio quality improvements but edorsement from paid review magazines like Stereophile, what HiFi and others. In these reviews, reviewers almost never provide measurements that show significant improvement over other speakers but say that these speakers were the best they had ever heard and give them 5 stars or something like that.
I would like to hear what you guys abd gals think. Do you hear much quality improvements from PSB, KEF, etc over the last few years.
I would like to hear what you guys abd gals think. Do you hear much quality improvements from PSB, KEF, etc over the last few years.
Vladimir said:
Loved the video. Some of the theories about why a $400 cable makes the system sound better are not that far off....
matt49
Well-known member
matthewpiano
Well-known member
Oh, not all these old conspiracy theories again. *dash1*
There is one way to get past any doubts or concerns you may have about industry hype, in whatever form, and that is to use your own ears and listen for yourself.
There is one way to get past any doubts or concerns you may have about industry hype, in whatever form, and that is to use your own ears and listen for yourself.
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