KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[Frank Harvey]

1. The actual selling price is several times more than realistic manufacturing cost: In speaker industry this is certainly very true. I am told that a replacement speakers for KEF LS50 cost much much less than cost of LS50.

Well yes, it would be a lot cheaper, as there is more to a pair of LS50s than the drive unit.

2. Money is being spent on marketing and hype: Presence of What Hi Fi and Stereophile and several other publications that are supported by high end speaker and audio manufacturer do show that audio industry spends considerable amount of money on hype and promotion.

As far as promotion is concerned, and the money spent on it, that is down to the changing face of buying patterns of the end user. If a manufacturer doesn't promote their product, it doesn't sell. Some manufacturers have taken note of certain companies like Apple and tried to emulate that. If that's the sort of marketing that is going to make people go out and buy their products, why are they not going to follow that example?

3. Use of expensive sales channels: - These channels spend time convincing the customers that spending a few thousands on a new DAC is worth it. This takes time since it is not based on fact and performance differences and can not be easily shown to buyers based on blind listening tests.: In case of audio gears, we do see use of dedicated high end dealers. These channels are much more expensive to maintain but are needed.

If it is worth it, then an audition will justify that. That old saying, about selling sand to an arab? Not true.

4. Absense or rejection of scientific and engineering measurements that can be verified by others: While not always but I do see a more reliance of subjective terms like "musicality" and "aura" than sientific terms like Blind test, statistical significance etc. to describe better performance of one audio gear than the other.

In the case of WHF, I really can't see what benefit they'd reap from spending a fortune on testing gear in a dedicated facility. That might suit some publications (one of which I believe went under), but not others. Whilst some people find various descriptions confusing, they'd find measured specs a lot more confusing, particularly as many people can't properly interpret these specs, and even if they could, wouldn't really have much of an idea what they would mean in the real world.

5. Others can probably name numerous other signs that shows an industry is based on more hype and marketing than performance. I will welcome other's comments.

You're welcome.

 

[ID.]

Oh, not all these old conspiracy theories again. *dash1*

There is one way to get past any doubts or concerns you may have about industry hype, in whatever form, and that is to use your own ears and listen for yourself.

And how dare manufacters rip us off by daring to make a profit from their products. Imagine the cheek of it. The speakers are considerably cheaper than the component parts. Labour costs? Reasonable marketing costs? R&D costs? Various business overheads? Don't make me laugh mate. What do you think this is? A market economy that pays what it can bear?

 

[davedotco]

Oh, not all these old conspiracy theories again. *dash1*

There is one way to get past any doubts or concerns you may have about industry hype, in whatever form, and that is to use your own ears and listen for yourself.

And how dare manufacters rip us off by daring to make a profit from their products. Imagine the cheek of it. The speakers are considerably cheaper than the component parts. Labour costs? Reasonable marketing costs? R&D costs? Various business overheads? Don't make me laugh mate. What do you think this is? A market economy that pays what it can bear?

These days 'proper' hi-fi is a 'boutique' business, quantities are modest, margins, at all stages, are high, build cost is a tiny fraction of retail.

But that is the market, if enthusiasts want to see a wide selection of gear that they can audition in comfortable surroundings, get expert help and decent after sales service, this has to be paid for. These days a lot of people are reluctant to do that.

 

[manicm]

I once watched a youtube video of Richard Dawkins investigating homeopathy and almost choked to death from laughing.

Can't browse videos right now, so don't have any insight. But here's an interesting homeopathy incident. Sometime in the last 2 decades Justin Hayward of The Moody Blues totally lost his sense of taste. He recalled a visit to a restaurant where he ordered the hottest vindaloo chicken and claimed he still could not taste a thing. Visits upon visits to many doctors and specialists had no avail. He was then referred to a homeopath and after treatment (don't know what exactly) he regained his sense of taste to, quote, about '60 %'. Interesting.

 

[shkumar4963]

1.  The actual selling price is several times more than realistic manufacturing cost:  In speaker industry this is certainly very true.  I am told that a replacement speakers for KEF LS50 cost much much less than cost of LS50.

Well yes, it would be a lot cheaper, as there is more to a pair of LS50s than the drive unit.

2.  Money is being spent on marketing and hype:  Presence of What Hi Fi and Stereophile and several other publications that are supported by high end speaker and audio manufacturer do show that audio industry spends considerable amount of money on hype and promotion.

As far as promotion is concerned, and the money spent on it, that is down to the changing face of buying patterns of the end user. If a manufacturer doesn't promote their product, it doesn't sell. Some manufacturers have taken note of certain companies like Apple and tried to emulate that. If that's the sort of marketing that is going to make people go out and buy their products, why are they not going to follow that example?

3.  Use of expensive sales channels: - These channels spend time convincing the customers that spending a few thousands on a new DAC is worth it.  This takes time since it is not based on fact and performance differences and can not be easily shown to buyers based on blind listening tests.:  In case of audio gears, we do see use of dedicated high end dealers.  These channels are much more expensive to maintain but are needed.

If it is worth it, then an audition will justify that. That old saying, about selling sand to an arab? Not true.

4.  Absense or rejection of scientific and engineering measurements that can be verified by others:  While not always but I do see a more reliance of subjective terms like "musicality" and "aura" than sientific terms like Blind test, statistical significance etc. to describe better performance of one audio gear than the other.

In the case of WHF, I really can't see what benefit they'd reap from spending a fortune on testing gear in a dedicated facility. That might suit some publications (one of which I believe went under), but not others. Whilst some people find various descriptions confusing, they'd find measured specs a lot more confusing, particularly as many people can't properly interpret these specs, and even if they could, wouldn't really have much of an idea what they would mean in the real world.

5.  Others can probably name numerous other signs that shows an industry is based on more hype and marketing than performance.  I will welcome other's comments.

You're welcome.

 

[Vladimir]

Equipment needed to test gear does not cost more than few hundreds of dollars or few thousands if you want to go mad. You need a single piece of software, osciloscope and a good microphone on a pole. That's it.

Or if you are lazy you can pay Miller Research to do the measurements for you, like some magazines do.

And to do Double Blind Tests, you need zero dollars.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I was also thinking along the lines of a few dedicated rooms like an anechoic chamber in order to get accurate readings (as well as equipment of course). I still don't think the mag would benefit from it.

 

[steve_1979]

In the case of WHF, I really can't see what benefit they'd reap from spending a fortune on testing gear in a dedicated facility.

WHF have already spent almost a million pound on their "state of the art testing facilities". Clicky

Would another £1000-2000 for some software, osciloscope and a good microphone really break the bank?

 

[Vladimir]

I was also thinking along the lines of a few dedicated rooms like an anechoic chamber in order to get accurate readings (as well as equipment of course). I still don't think the mag would benefit from it.

I'm sure you did and I'm sure you don't.

 

[Frank Harvey]

As I said.

 

[shkumar4963]

I was also thinking along the lines of a few dedicated rooms like an anechoic chamber in order to get accurate readings (as well as equipment of course). I still don't think the mag would benefit from it.

Sure. And I get that. No one benefits from the accurate and honest measurements and reviews except the readers and consumers. And they don't pay for the major cost of publishing these magazines and maintaining these websites and forums. Till they start doing that, we should not expect reviewers to be working for them...

But I agree with Vladimir. The measurement equipment does not cost that much and I am surprised that some Audio Society or a blogger has not strated doing it - just for the readership..

 

[pyrrhon]

The measurement equipment does not cost that much and I am surprised that some Audio Society or a blogger has not strated doing it - just for the readership..

There are some free iphone apps : tone generator, db meters, frequency response. Anyone with an audyssey av can see the equalizers setting after a calibration. I have greatly improved my understanding when I started getting some measures. But I havent found a PRAT meter yet

 

[Vladimir]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

[Vladimir]

Here is what kind of equipment they use at Rega to measure and calibrate gear. Rega Factory Tour

 

[BigH]

Here is what kind of equipment they use at Rega to measure and calibrate gear. Rega Factory Tour

What Essex girls, lol.

 

[Vladimir]

Here is what kind of equipment they use at Rega to measure and calibrate gear. Rega Factory Tour

What Essex girls, lol.

That's the key to the Rega sound. The secret is out.

 

[shkumar4963]

After a lot of serach I found a site that gives at least some bad reviews to speakers... And used a reutable third party to get detailed measurements done.

Here is a link to LS50 measurements.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=artic...

And it also give distortion figures. And Boy they are horrible below 100 Hz, Now I know why KEF was so reluctant to let me know the distortion figures.

Look at other reviews and let me know what you think of reviews from Soundstage Hifi.

Here it is... You guys who have experience with other similar speakers, let me know how does the distortion compares with their distortion levels. I really think, the distortion is the key to speaker quality. Frequency response can be corrected electronically using DRC, low end of bass can be supplemented using a sub, but no one can fix distortion or box resonance (and bunch of room related issues... but that is another story) after the fact.

Love to hear your comments.

 

[shkumar4963]

21dB difference between the signal and distortion is equivalent to .7% distortion and 12 dB difference is 5.6% distortion.

Please check my math but this sounds about right. So maximum distortion at 50 Hz is about 10% and anything above 100 Hz is 0.4% distortion.

No wonder, a sub with better distortion numbers is needed below 100 Hz. Now we need to find distortion levels for subs which may not be easy either. Sub manufacturers would like to hide them as well. Because it costs a lot to make sub with low distortion. What thye want you to see if the Amp power.

 

[lindsayt]

The Kef LS50 distortion measurements were made at 90 dbs. Turn them up to 95 dbs and the distortion will be even higher as a percentage.

Also the graph cuts off at 50hz. But music doesn't. The distortion will be higher at 40hz than at 50hz.

At 25 hz at a nominal 100dbs you may be in the region of 100% distortion!

Compare the LS50 graph to the Wilson Watt / Puppy 8 from the same website. The Wilson has better distortion measurements.

 

[matt49]

Just a polite question: how sensitive is the human ear to distortion at 50Hz?

Answer: almost totally insensitive.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion

 

[shkumar4963]

Just a polite question: how sensitive is the human ear to distortion at 50Hz?

Answer: almost totally insensitive.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion

I see what you mean. At 120 Hz iwe can detect -12 dB of distortion which is about 5.6% distortion. But at 1K we can detect -30 dB which is .1% of distortion. So at.4% that LS50 produces it is definitely detectable and may even be annoying.

May be that is what is observed when people say that at higher volumes, LS50 seems that it is straining. Now bettre amp can not remove this distortion as it is produced in the speaker and not in the amp.

It is clear that any distortion that amp produces is almost always much less than this and should not impact the sound quality at all.

Any thoughts? Are my calculations wrong?

 

[shkumar4963]

The Kef LS50 distortion measurements were made at 90 dbs. Turn them up to 95 dbs and the distortion will be even higher as a percentage.

Also the graph cuts off at 50hz. But music doesn't. The distortion will be higher at 40hz than at 50hz.

At 25 hz at a nominal 100dbs you may be in the region of 100% distortion!

Compare the LS50 graph to the Wilson Watt / Puppy 8 from the same website. The Wilson has better distortion measurements.

I shows that these speakers definitely will need a low distortion and flat frequency response sub and the cross over frequency should be about 80 Hz or may be 100 Hz. That will solve the problem.

Do others agree????

 

[shkumar4963]

After a lot of search I found a site that gives at least some bad reviews to speakers...(and I think that is so refreshing in light of most reviews being supported by advertisements) and uses a reputable third party to get detailed measurements done. And no ordinary third party. It uses Canada's National Research Council. So I guess we can trust the results.

Here is a link to LS50 measurements. YOu can see measurements for other audia components there as well. This combined with subjective reviews will allow consumers to make an informative judgement. And then finally they can audition a few gears and select what works the best for them.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

And it also give distortion figures. And Boy they are horrible below 100 Hz, Now I know why KEF was so reluctant to let me know the distortion figures.

Look at other reviews and let me know what you think of reviews from Soundstage Hifi and their philosophy of publishing measurements as well.

 

[shkumar4963]

The Kef LS50 distortion measurements were made at 90 dbs. Turn them up to 95 dbs and the distortion will be even higher as a percentage.

Also the graph cuts off at 50hz. But music doesn't. The distortion will be higher at 40hz than at 50hz.

At 25 hz at a nominal 100dbs you may be in the region of 100% distortion!

Compare the LS50 graph to the Wilson Watt / Puppy 8 from the same website. The Wilson has better distortion measurements.

Now to be fair, you should not compare beautiful looking LS50 that can fit in any size room with Puppy8 that are big and probably not suitable for most home decor- especially for people who have smaller family rooms.

 

[shkumar4963]

All dB measurements are correct. The equation to convert %THD to dB should have been:

dB = 20 log THD

so -12 dB = 25%

-21 dB = 9%

- 30dB = 3%